Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

I asked you if it would be be possible to respond to the criticism. You haven't and that's fine. You clearly view us to be ill informed drones so I can't see a discussion with you going anywhere.

I don't view anybody as ill informed drones... I end up arguing with people who are obviously more articulate and educated than myself.. With what seems a broad view of experiences in different fields.. But I see mass compartmentalisation and just our side is righteousism...

robindch

Corkfeen wrote: »

[...] ill informed drones [...]

And whose opinions aren't formed by facts, but by US and EU propaganda. Personally, I find that an unusual perspective as I've been to Russia and Ukraine many times, I speaka da lingo well enough to get around without problems, I have friends from the regions who hold all points of view, I was in Kiev in February and saw first-hand the blood-letting start, I spoke with people there and then and since that time, I've read I suppose it must have been thousands of tweets, comments, articles, posts, photos, videos, press releases, top-level diplomatic stuff, leaked genuine and faked just about everything, from all sides, and from all perspectives.

The situation is insanely dangerous -- I can't imagine anything worse than two large European countries now at war, one armed with nuclear weapons and with a deceitful lunatic in charge -- and I think it requires a little more understanding and a little more subtlety than accusations of posting "bollox".

jimeryan22

robindch wrote: »

And whose opinions aren't formed by facts, but by US and EU propaganda. Personally, I find that an unusual perspective as I've been to Russia and Ukraine many times, I speaka da lingo well enough to get around without problems, I have friends from the regions who hold all points of view, I was in Kiev in February and saw first-hand the blood-letting start, I spoke with people there and then and since that time, I've read I suppose it must have been thousands of tweets, comments, articles, posts, photos, videos, press releases, top-level diplomatic stuff, leaked genuine and faked just about everything, from all sides, and from all perspectives.

The situation is insanely dangerous -- I can't imagine anything worse than two large European countries now at war, one armed with nuclear weapons and with a deceitful lunatic in charge -- and I think it requires a little more understanding and a little more subtlety than accusations of posting "bollox".

But... Again.. You are missing my point
You have just given an example of what I said.. Namely experience in what we're talking about.. But. And again but
You seem to come from a position that the regimes are any different from ours in the west..
We've messed in other country's affairs
We've given weapons and "help" to terrorist groups..
We've had country's invaded in our names
We've had these so called experts wreck the worlds economy's making everybody poorer but the rich..
What is the bloody difference..?
You's all seem to carry your opinions on Russia as if our lot are not as culpable
Western society and the cronies running it are every bit as bad as putty boots and his crowd..
So why do you's come from that position I can't understand..

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

But... Again.. You are missing my point
You have just given an example of what I said.. Namely experience in what we're talking about.. But. And again but
You seem to come from a position that the regimes are any different from ours in the west..
We've messed in other country's affairs
We've given weapons and "help" to terrorist groups..
We've had country's invaded in our names
We've had these so called experts wreck the worlds economy's making everybody poorer but the rich..
What is the bloody difference..?
You's all seem to carry your opinions on Russia as if our lot are not as culpable
Western society and the cronies running it are every bit as bad as putty boots and his crowd..
So why do you's come from that position I can't understand..

Basically, what you're saying is that you can't understand how someone who has spent a great deal of time researching an issue has arrived at a different conclusion from you.

Have you thought through all the possible reasons why that might be?

robindch

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You seem to come from a position that the regimes are any different from ours in the west.

Putin has successfully turned Russia from its incarnation under Yeltsin -- an immature, but hopeful democracy with some basic respect for the rights of individuals -- into a dangerous, kleptocratic, semi-military, semi-dictatorship with a totally corrupt judiciary and police force, with no noticeable respect for human rights and which has invaded a (formerly) friendly, neighboring country for the most historically inappropriate reasons.

If you think we're living here in Ireland, or Europe, under a "regime" similar to what Russian people are living with, well, all I can suggest is that you go to Russia and find out for yourself how little you know.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

Basically, what you're saying is that you can't understand how someone who has spent a great deal of time researching an issue has arrived at a different conclusion from you.

Have you thought through all the possible reasons why that might be?

No that is not what I'm saying at all
I'm saying I can't believe the belief in known liars..

recedite

robindch wrote: »

...a deceitful lunatic in charge --

The "lunatic" is widely acknowledged to have outsmarted the Obama administration re Syria. He negotiated the decommissioning of Assad's chemical weapons arsenal. He warned against the US arming of the Islamic militants there. When those militants gave up attacking Assad and decided to go for easier territory in Iraq, Obama stood back scratching his head, and talked about the possibility of US air strikes. The expansion of the Islamic Caliphate only stopped when the deceitful lunatic (and also Iran) delivered Russian planes capable of destroying the US supplied armoured vehicles that were being used by the jihadists to expand their territory. Meanwhile Obama is still sitting on his hands, wondering how it all went so wrong.

jimeryan22

robindch wrote: »

Putin has successfully turned Russia from its incarnation under Yeltsin -- an immature, but hopeful democracy with some basic respect for the rights of individuals -- into a dangerous, kleptocratic, semi-military, semi-dictatorship with a totally corrupt judiciary and police force, with no noticeable respect for human rights and which has invaded a (formerly) friendly, neighboring country for the most historically inappropriate reasons.

If you think we're living here in Ireland, or Europe, under a "regime" similar to what Russian people are living with, well, all I can suggest is that you go to Russia and find out for yourself how little you know.

So tell me this then.. If its no different
Why has no one been locked up here anywhere else in Europe or the US for crimes considered treasonous by most then..? Ie bankers,culpable ministers or whoever.. How come our military's get used to invade and occupy foreign sovereign country's against "most" of its populations will..? I give you we're not in such strict society, but only in the sense ours are far more clandestine.. But they're comiting the same crimes enriching their buddy's and so on..
Oh and robin mother of all things is assumptions. And at 65 and ex squadie I've lived in East Germany when it was such, so am not totally ignorant thank you very much..
Oh and I think Russia's reform actually down to gorbechev..? Not pissed up boris Yeltsin

oscarBravo

robindch wrote: »

...I've been to Russia and Ukraine many times, I speaka da lingo well enough to get around without problems, I have friends from the regions who hold all points of view, I was in Kiev in February and saw first-hand the blood-letting start, I spoke with people there and then and since that time, I've read I suppose it must have been thousands of tweets, comments, articles, posts, photos, videos, press releases, top-level diplomatic stuff, leaked genuine and faked just about everything, from all sides, and from all perspectives.

This gets reduced to:

jimeryan22 wrote: »

I'm saying I can't believe the belief in known liars..

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Why has no one been locked up here anywhere else in Europe or the US for crimes considered treasonous by most then..? Ie bankers...

If you think bankers are guilty of treason, I respectfully submit that you don't know what the word means.

robindch

jimeryan22 wrote: »

But they're comiting the same crimes enriching their buddy's and so on.

If you think that politicians in the US and the EU are in any way comparable to their counterparts in Russia, and to a lesser extend at least in financial terms, in Ukraine, then I suggest that you don't know what corruption is.

I was reminded of this some months ago when I was up with Klitschko and Saakashvili when the two of them visited Dublin in, I think, March. They were both being filmed condemning the invasion of Crimea, talking about the need for a firm international response while some bellend was screaming a few yards away into a loudhailer about Enda and Angela being fascists, about the EU being fascist, etc, etc. FWIW, I apologized to Klitschko "We have our idiots here too".

recedite wrote: »

The "lunatic" is widely acknowledged to have outsmarted the Obama administration re Syria.

I didn't say that Putin was stupid. On the contrary, Putin is a first-class tactical player and has outsmarted everybody for limited gain, at least in the short term.

In strategic terms, though, he's disastrous. Massive damage has been done to Europe's security architecture, to international relations, to mutual understandings, to the development and application of international law as it's been derived since the end of the Second World War, and it's going to take years, probably decades, for this mess to rebalance and for some kind of trust to be restored.

And that's assuming that Russia isn't going to take everybody else with it on its rapid descent into hell first.

grols

A citizen of another country can not be separatists!!!!
This is the aggressor or terrorist who is trying to connect to the land of their country.

Catalans do not want to join such as France. They just want independence!

jimeryan22

robindch wrote: »

If you think that politicians in the US and the EU are in any way comparable to their counterparts in Russia, and to a lesser extend at least in financial terms, in Ukraine, then I suggest that you don't know what corruption is.

I was reminded of this some months ago when I was up with Klitschko and Saakashvili when the two of them visited Dublin in, I think, March. They were both being filmed condemning the invasion of Crimea, talking about the need for a firm international response while some bellend was screaming a few yards away into a loudhailer about Enda and Angela being fascists, about the EU being fascist, etc, etc. FWIW, I apologized to Klitschko "We have our idiots here too".I didn't say that Putin was stupid. On the contrary, Putin is a first-class tactical player and has outsmarted everybody for limited gain, at least in the short term.

In strategic terms, though, he's disastrous. Massive damage has been done to Europe's security architecture, to international relations, to mutual understandings, to the development and application of international law as it's been derived since the end of the Second World War, and it's going to take years, probably decades, for this mess to rebalance and for some kind of trust to be restored.

And that's assuming that Russia isn't going to take everybody else with it on its rapid descent into hell first.

The expert again. Telling us how we all know nothing.. And he's part if the whole thing so he does.. You and klitsch..? Huh.. We have our idiots too..? You condescending person. Shame on you expert..
You mean I don't know corruption as you and your like define it as what you mean.. Get down of that high horse..
Will we roll you out a red carpet..?

Turtwig

jimeryan22 wrote: »

The expert again. Telling us how we all know nothing.. And he's part if the whole thing so he does.. You and klitsch..? Huh.. We have our idiots too..? You condescending person. Shame in you expert..
You mean I don't know corruption as you and your like define it is what you mean.. Get down of that high horse..
Will we roll you out a red carpet..?

Mod: Attack the post and not the poster. Cut out this style of post or your duration on this forum will be a short one.

jimeryan22

robindch
" then I suggest that you don't know what corruption is"

corruption
kəˈrʌpʃ(ə)n/
noun
1.
dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.
"the journalist who wants to expose corruption in high places"
synonyms: dishonesty, dishonest dealings, unscrupulousness, deceit, deception, duplicity, double-dealing, fraud, fraudulence, misconduct, lawbreaking, crime, criminality, delinquency, wrongdoing, villainy; More
antonyms: honesty
the action or effect of making someone or something morally depraved.
"the corruption of youth was a powerful motif"
synonyms: sin, sinfulness, ungodliness, unrighteousness, profanity, impiety, impurity; More
antonyms: morality, purity
2.
the process by which a word or expression is changed from its original state to one regarded as erroneous or debased.
"a record of a word's corruption"
synonyms: alteration, falsification, doctoring, manipulation, manipulating, fudging, adulteration, debasement, degradation, abuse, subversion, misrepresentation, misapplication


Hmmmm. Pretty sure that covers the banksters and political sidekicks...

stevejazzx

robindch wrote: »

If you think that politicians in the US and the EU are in any way comparable to their counterparts in Russia, and to a lesser extend at least in financial terms, in Ukraine, then I suggest that you don't know what corruption is.

Preposterous statement.

The Bush administration has produced some of the most crooked politicians who have ever walked the earth - I simply don't have time to outline the controversies and scandals that include everything from proven war crimes to grand fraud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:George_W._Bush_administration_controversies

In Italy this man is next to legendary and certainly world class, well up to the Russian standard for his corruption.

Lets not forget Obama! Continuing wars in Afghanistan, Guantanamo bay goes on and on breaking countless international laws.

The NSA scandal!!!! - I mean **** me Russia has some catching up to do on this front.

The UK have ongoing scandals like cash for honors, political expenses, selling weapons to IRAQ (just taking after their US brethren there) and now in the middle of a pedophile scandal

Irish scandals despite numerous don't even get close (perhaps Anglo!) but Robin you have blinkers on.

I think its time we had a pint (if you're still taking to me!).

stevejazzx

recedite wrote: »

The "lunatic" is widely acknowledged to have outsmarted the Obama administration re Syria. He negotiated the decommissioning of Assad's chemical weapons arsenal. He warned against the US arming of the Islamic militants there. When those militants gave up attacking Assad and decided to go for easier territory in Iraq, Obama stood back scratching his head, and talked about the possibility of US air strikes. The expansion of the Islamic Caliphate only stopped when the deceitful lunatic (and also Iran) delivered Russian planes capable of destroying the US supplied armoured vehicles that were being used by the jihadists to expand their territory. Meanwhile Obama is still sitting on his hands, wondering how it all went so wrong.

Excellent points that will fall on deaf ears.

jimeryan22

stevejazzx wrote: »

Preposterous statement.

The Bush administration has produced some of the crooked politicians who have ever walked the earth - I simply don't have time to outline the controversies and scandals that include everything from proven war crimes to grand fraud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:George_W._Bush_administration_controversies

In Italy this man is next to legendary and certainly world class ,well up to the Russian standard for his corruption.

Lets not forget Obama! Continuing wars in Afghanistan, Guantanamo bay goes on and on breaking countless international laws.

The NSA scandal!!!! - I mean **** me Russia has some catching up to do on this front.

The UK have ongoing scandals like cash for honors, political expenses, selling weapons to IRAQ (just taking after their US brethren there) and now in the middle of a pedophile scandal

Irish scandals despite numerous don't even get close (perhaps Anglo!) but Robin you have blinkers on.

I think its time we had a pint (if you're still taking to me!).

Yes Steve yes Steve yes...

stevejazzx

robindch wrote: »

BTW, Aleksander Borodai, the self-proclaimed DPR leader, admitted links to Russian state security agencies in a BBC interview the other day. And, it seems Borodai appears to have some past form in preferring dictators to democracy.

Great interview he seems to outline the process of experts getting access to the bodies in a pretty believable manner and puts to to bed, or at the least, throws serious question upon the sensationalized and dreadful claims of rebles looting bodies etc. The vast majority of those type of claims would now appear to be a product of the vast propaganda machine that the Ukraine has running 24/7.

I'm also not sure what the relevance is of him admitting he has links to Russian security actually is?. As he admits openly in the interview that as a senior political and security adviser who is originally from Moscow it would be strange if he didn't. Crucially he claims that such links are not currently active or immediately influencing upon current agendas. Granted, this may not be true but if you're claiming that he admitted something you should really represent what he actually said more accurately otherwise you're kind of acting like the side you're trying to criticize.

stevejazzx

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you think bankers are guilty of treason, I respectfully submit that you don't know what the word means.

Sure half the country claimed that the Anglo situation amounted to what was essentially economic treason, perhaps that's what he meant - the phrase has been bandied about so much in relation to financial crimes to underpin their ultimate seriousness.
I doubt many claim it in a technical sense.

http://www.labour.ie/blog/2011/01/12/bailing-out-insolvent-bank-is-economic-treason-says-gilmore/

recedite

robindch wrote: »

If you think that politicians in the US and the EU are in any way comparable to their counterparts in Russia, and to a lesser extend at least in financial terms, in Ukraine, then I suggest that you don't know what corruption is.

I was reminded of this some months ago when I was up with Klitschko and Saakashvili when the two of them visited Dublin

Mik Heil Saakashvili; Former President of Georgia. Invited in the US military to train and equip his army, and then decided to "have a go at" South Ossetia in 2008, whom he viewed as separatists. Had his ass kicked when the Russians came to the aid of Ossetians, and ended up losing part of northern Georgia. Russians only withdrew back to Ossetia when Saakashvili renounced violence and agreed not to attack Ossetia again. Lost the next election and now lives in the US, while "on the run" from prosecuters in Georgia for possible murder of a political opponent.

Vitali Klitschko; Champion kickboxer turned politician. Maidan protester, and favours closer alignment with EU and Nato.
Was persuaded by Porochenko earlier this year to withdraw from the presidential elections and to endorse him instead. In return or by coincidence, he was elected Mayor of Kiev city and was appointed head of Kiev city state shortly afterwards by Poroshenko.

Turtwig

Mod:
Jim,

Posts like that are tiring and they're getting far too repetitive. I deleted this one the next one get's carded.

Hotblack Desiato

There's a good analysis of the known facts here from a respected aviation industry perspective.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d&opt=0

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Mik Heil Saakashvili; Former President of Georgia. Invited in the US military to train and equip his army, and then decided to "have a go at" South Ossetia in 2008

South Ossetia is part of Georgia.

Vitali Klitschko; Champion kickboxer turned politician. Maidan protester, and favours closer alignment with EU and Nato.
Was persuaded by Porochenko earlier this year to withdraw from the presidential elections and to endorse him instead. In return or by coincidence, he was elected Mayor of Kiev city and was appointed head of Kiev city state shortly afterwards by Poroshenko.

He's well-known and popular and well capable of winning an election, there's no need to insinuate. Unless you have evidence of wrongdoing of course :rolleyes:

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

So tell me this then.. If its no different
Why has no one been locked up here anywhere else in Europe or the US for crimes considered treasonous by most then..? Ie bankers,culpable ministers or whoever.. How come our military's get used to invade and occupy foreign sovereign country's against "most" of its populations will..? I give you we're not in such strict society, but only in the sense ours are far more clandestine.. But they're comiting the same crimes enriching their buddy's and so on..
Oh and robin mother of all things is assumptions. And at 65 and ex squadie I've lived in East Germany when it was such, so am not totally ignorant thank you very much..
Oh and I think Russia's reform actually down to gorbechev..? Not pissed up boris Yeltsin

Double standards again? Shall we ignore Putin's privatisation of the gas industry which he profited off to an unknown extent? To be perfectly honest, I prefer not living in a state that doesn't have one of the highest mortality rates for journalists on the globe, that doesn't stand idly by as people are beaten for their sexual orientation.

obplayer

Corkfeen wrote: »

Double standards again? Shall we ignore Putin's privatisation of the gas industry which he profited off to an unknown extent? To be perfectly honest, I prefer not living in a state that doesn't have one of the highest mortality rates for journalists on the globe, that doesn't stand idly by as people are beaten for their sexual orientation.

I don't think it is double standards so much as not perhaps thinking things all the way through. Let me try and explain.
Any state is always going to have problems prosecuting rich and powerful people in that state, but if people at the low end of the power scale feel the justice system will give them some protection then you have a chance of prosecuting the rich on the word of the poor. Witness Dominique Strauss-Kahn being investigated for charges of rape on the word of a chamber-maid. I cannot imagine such a case ever even being heard in Russia because it seems that the justice system has been entirely subverted. I get the impression that the non-powerful in Russia are simply terrified of all 'authority'. No justice system or state is ever going to be perfect or free of corruption, but there are degrees of freedom and of corruption. Russia seems to fail on both of these.

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

Double standards again? Shall we ignore Putin's privatisation of the gas industry which he profited off to an unknown extent? To be perfectly honest, I prefer not living in a state that doesn't have one of the highest mortality rates for journalists on the globe, that doesn't stand idly by as people are beaten for their sexual orientation.

And what happend here with the tolls of the roads..? Our national electric board..? Privatisation as it's been called, or selling off public assets to your buddies for pennies on the dollar has gone on all across Europe.. What about the uk..? What about Greece..? What about Italy..? What about Spain..? The same...
Although I will give you your statement about the homosexual thing in Russia.. They do seem to get a tough old time out there....

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

Putin has successfully turned Russia from its incarnation under Yeltsin -- an immature, but hopeful democracy with some basic respect for the rights of individuals

Shouldn't that read "before Yeltsin stormed the Duma (with western support) in order to impose his will upon the elected government"? The main reason why Putin got Russia to where it is today was because his predecessor was just as ruthless a totalitarian.

-- into a dangerous, kleptocratic, semi-military, semi-dictatorship with a totally corrupt judiciary and police force, with no noticeable respect for human rights and which has invaded a (formerly) friendly, neighboring country for the most historically inappropriate reasons.

As I mentioned above this got going in 1993, except that while Yeltsin could consolidate power internally he wasn't capable enough to get the country into the (barely functional) state it is currently.

If you think we're living here in Ireland, or Europe, under a "regime" similar to what Russian people are living with, well, all I can suggest is that you go to Russia and find out for yourself how little you know.

Yes. Bad and all the system we are living under is, it could be far, far worse.

jimeryan22

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

South Ossetia is part of Georgia.




He's well-known and popular and well capable of winning an election, there's no need to insinuate. Unless you have evidence of wrongdoing of course :rolleyes:

Well capable of winning an election..? You think klitchko is of politician material..? He's alot of experience of course to run a country or hold a high office position of some form..
We'll get in mcgreggor or Katie tailor maybe

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

And what happend here with the tolls of the roads..? Our national electric board..? Privatisation as it's been called, or selling off public assets to your buddies for pennies on the dollar has gone on all across Europe.. What about the uk..? What about Greece..? What about Italy..? What about Spain..? The same...
Although I will give you your statement about the homosexual thing in Russia.. They do seem to get a tough old time out there....

Putin gained tens of billions from the privatisation. Doesn't the high murder rate of journalists matter to you? The murder or imprisonment of opponents? But Ireland is apparently like this...Corruption is not on a remotely comparable scale.

stevejazzx

Corkfeen wrote: »

Double standards again? Shall we ignore Putin's privatisation of the gas industry which he profited off to an unknown extent? To be perfectly honest, I prefer not living in a state that doesn't have one of the highest mortality rates for journalists on the globe

Our good journalists just have to live in Embassies all their lives, in fear of their lives or, I don't know, get adopted by Russia - or have their partners illegally arrested and detained or mysteriously perish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#Death
But in the west these are conspiracies - in Russia they are facts - did you post something about a double standard?

CF wrote:

that doesn't stand idly by as people are beaten for their sexual orientation.

Good but you should be aware that you are ruling more countries than just Russia. You're certainly ruling out the USA who have historically, pioneered violence against the LGBT community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States