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*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2015*

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    #692
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    Fair play. .wasn't expecting that!


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    #693
    Nocofee
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Nocofee


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Great news:

    This is amazing! Thanks so much for all your hard work


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    #694
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    Bad news:
    Dear Sir/Madam,



    The Minister for Education and Skills Ms Jan O’Sullivan T.D. has asked me to refer again to your email of 8 April in relation to the running of this year’s HPAT examination.

    All universities in Ireland are autonomous statutory institutions within the meaning of the Universities Act 1997. The management of their academic affairs, including the establishment of entry requirements, is a matter for the individual universities. Neither the Minister nor the Department has any role in relation to such matters. Similarly the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI), which is a private institution, determines its own admissions policies.



    As you are aware, the HPAT examination was introduced for the first time in 2009 and is administered by the Australian Council for Educational Research (ACER) on behalf of the universities’ medical schools and the RCSI. The operation of HPAT is an academic matter relating to admission to the institutions concerned, it falls entirely within the purview of the relevant higher education institutions.



    For that reason, any concerns regarding the operation of the HPAT examination should, in the first instance, be raised with ACER and subsequently with the medical schools themselves.


    Yours sincerely

    [Redacted]
    Private Secretary

    Thoughts?

    Technically what's stated above is correct, but the introduction of the HPAT was very much a government-led thing, and the Minister clearly just wants to stay out of it.

    How do you think we should proceed?


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    #695
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    dalta5billion wrote:
    Technically what's stated above is correct, but the introduction of the HPAT was very much a government-led thing, and the Minister clearly just wants to stay out of it.

    dalta5billion wrote:
    Thoughts?

    dalta5billion wrote:
    How do you think we should proceed?


    Sorry for clarification who exactly replied to the email. .acer I'm assuming?


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    #696
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Sorry for clarification who exactly replied to the email. .acer I'm assuming?

    A private secretary for the Minister for Education. I've redacted their name.


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    #697
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    dalta5billion wrote:
    A private secretary for the Minister for Education. I've redacted their name.


    Ok so it's the Minister of edu that replied. .basically what i got from the reply was this.

    To sit the HPAT you signed your life at to ACER. They won't be held responsible. However, acer answer to the medical schools and the RCSI. Therefore your best bet is the complain to med schools and rcsi, that the test they commissioned wasn't fair and equitable.

    ACER will have covered their ass when it comes to this kinda thing. .Not sure if anything will be done!


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    #698
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    Best path as I see it:

    Ask the universities to look into it and get back to us ASAP, mentioning that we fully intend to take these cases to the Ombudsman if the issue is not resolved satisfactorily (I have confirmed that we can take cases such as this to the Ombudsman).

    Simultaneously, we should keep up the media campaign. He who shouts the loudest...


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    #699
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    From the email from MoE..rcsi and med schools are the people to contact.

    Have you started a media campaign? I would doubt the need for one at this stage, exhaust all routes first. If nothing has happened, when the HPAT results come out it may be worth mentioning it then, just because of relavance


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    #700
    Nocofee
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Nocofee


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Best path as I see it:

    Ask the universities to look into it and get back to us ASAP, mentioning that we fully intend to take these cases to the Ombudsman if the issue is not resolved satisfactorily (I have confirmed that we can take cases such as this to the Ombudsman).

    Simultaneously, we should keep up the media campaign. He who shouts the loudest...

    Completely agree with everything above.


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    #701
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,142 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Make sure to mention that you are contacting them 'as advised by the Office of the Minister...'.


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    #702
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    Sent now.
    Subject: Urgent: HPAT exam integrity
    From: HPAT Students Union <hpatsu@gmail.com>
    To: mary.horgan@ucc.ie, hmcgee@rcsi.ie, head.smms@ucd.ie, brownpv@tcd.ie,
    sean.dinneen@nuigalway.ie, Michael.Larvin@ul.ie

    Dear Heads of Medical Schools,

    I contact you urgently on behalf of the HPAT Students Union, a group set up
    to advocate for young people taking the HPAT exam.

    Members of our group took the HPAT exam in Goldsmith Hall, Trinity College
    Dublin. Due to an apparent error on the part of the supervisor, they were
    forced to hand up their exam papers five minutes too early. This incident
    is further explained in our press release, appended below, a copy of which
    you may have received last week.

    As advised earlier today by the office of the Minister for Education and
    Skills, we now formally request you, the heads of medical schools, to
    resolve this matter in a way which is fair to all involved. It is
    absolutely imperative that HPAT results are not issued until the integrity
    of the HPAT examination is restored. We are also aware of our right to take
    cases regarding admission to the Ombudsman.

    We are particularly unhappy with the response from ACER, the Australian
    company you have contracted to run the HPAT on your behalf. They have
    failed to respond to emails from union representatives on multiple
    occasions. This is grossly unprofessional.

    Despite this, we look forward to cooperating with you to resolve this
    matter.

    Yours sincerely,

    HPAT Students Union



    BEGINS
    (I appended our original press release here)


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    #703
    Niamhjkl
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Niamhjkl


    Just out of interest, what are everybody's ideas on pre-med? Still find myself tied between TCD and UCD for my 1st choice. Any opinions would be appreciated!


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    #704
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    Niamhjkl wrote:
    Just out of interest, what are everybody's ideas on pre-med? Still find myself tied between TCD and UCD for my 1st choice. Any opinions would be appreciated!

    Personally, I had ucd as my number one the first time around, didn't get the points repeated. Changed my first choice to tcd second time around to help me get back the year if you understand.

    If i had to go back and do it all again is probably but tcd down as number 1 both times.

    There is basically no difference in the two courses, except one is 6yrs and the 5. 6 years is a really long time and I think as you are going through 2nd 3rd and 4th year you'll be glad there is only 1 year to go. That's just me though, I really want to get out working. Tcd also offers a year long masters, so you could do a degree with a Msc in the 6 years.

    Ucd also has vincents, which is just down the road, i wish Tallaght was just down the road!


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    #705
    vladd25
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭vladd25


    When are the results for mature students sent put?


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    #706
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Bad news:
    Thoughts?

    Technically what's stated above is correct, but the introduction of the HPAT was very much a government-led thing, and the Minister clearly just wants to stay out of it.
    First rule of politics:

    - If it's good news / will make the minister look good, s/he will claim credit even if s/he had nothing to do with it, or even heard about the policy / project / initiative before.

    - Conversely, if it's bad news, s/he will disavow all responsibility or power in the area, and point to someone else as the responsible body.


    It's not just in Education or even in Ireland, unfortunately ... though in the case of one previous Minister for Ed, his desk became unofficially known as "the skating rink" for the speed with which any bad news which landed on it was promptly sent "skating" off to someone else! :rolleyes: :D


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    #707
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    No response from heads of medical schools as of yet, and mature applicant results are to be issued any time now.

    Randy, was thinking the same. Pretty disappointing response from the Minister, although not entirely surprising as you say.

    I'm stressed out with orals & college application stuff right now so really can't do any media blasts this week. Anyone willing to be our media spokesperson if the media ever decide to publish our story? Was very surprised at IMT not running with it, and not a peep out of any of the other outlets.


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    #708
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    No response from heads of medical schools as of yet, and mature applicant results are to be issued any time now.

    There seems to be a bit of a delay with HPAT mature results; quite often RCSI receives the results early and sends out e-mails but that still hasn't happened yet.


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    #709
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    ronivek wrote: »
    There seems to be a bit of a delay with HPAT mature results; quite often RCSI receives the results early and sends out e-mails but that still hasn't happened yet.

    Hopefully they've gotten our email and are investigating...


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    #710
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Just received the mail from RCSI; although nobody is 100% sure the assumption is that mail only goes out once they have HPAT results.


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    #711
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    ronivek wrote: »
    Just received the mail from RCSI; although nobody is 100% sure the assumption is that mail only goes out once they have HPAT results.

    This was telling you whether you had been accepted for mature entry?


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    #712
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    This was telling you whether you had been accepted for mature entry?

    No; it's just an invitation to submit extra documentation such as references and a CV. Most people believe they only ask those who achieve over a certain score in the HPAT.


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    #713
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    Still no reply from heads of medical schools.

    Really I don't know what to do now - ACER are ignoring us, the media are ignoring us, and now the heads of medical schools are also ignoring us.

    Seriously, if they go ahead with these flawed results at this stage I'll be so angry.


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    #714
    DepoProvera
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭DepoProvera


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Still no reply from heads of medical schools.

    Really I don't know what to do now - ACER are ignoring us, the media are ignoring us, and now the heads of medical schools are also ignoring us.

    Seriously, if they go ahead with these flawed results at this stage I'll be so angry.

    Seriously man don't get bogged downby it now - focus on the thing you actually can change: your leaving cert.

    For all you know you've done really well and you don't wanna let a poor leaving cert lose your place.


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    #715
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    DepoProvera wrote: »
    Seriously man don't get bogged downby it now - focus on the thing you actually can change: your leaving cert.

    For all you know you've done really well and you don't wanna let a poor leaving cert lose your place.

    Exactly!


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    #716
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    DepoProvera wrote: »
    Seriously man don't get bogged downby it now - focus on the thing you actually can change: your leaving cert.

    For all you know you've done really well and you don't wanna let a poor leaving cert lose your place.

    I'm not applying for medicine. Just don't want to see yet another example of the typical Irish "sweep it under the rug" happen. It's a goddamn disgrace.


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    #717
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    I'm not applying for medicine. Just don't want to see yet another example of the typical Irish "sweep it under the rug" happen. It's a goddamn disgrace.

    Really, you sat the HPAT though right?


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    #718
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Really, you sat the HPAT though right?

    Nope.


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    #719
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Nope.

    This is shocking, if I'm honest, You didnt sit the HPAT, you aren't going for med!


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    #720
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    This is shocking, if I'm honest, You didnt sit the HPAT, you aren't going for med!

    And your point....

    I've mentioned it before way back on this thread.


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    #721
    DepoProvera
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭DepoProvera


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    And your point....

    I've mentioned it before way back on this thread.

    So what connection do you have to it? How can you set up a so called student union when you have no experience of the grievance the thing was set up for in the first place?

    You seemed a bit too eager to create controversy with this - I thought, hey, I'd be pretty pissed off too. But to make such a deal when it didn't affect you is a bit bizarre! In the vein of the thread, it's like you have a weird form of Munchausen by proxy

    Now my previous advice is even more true: forget about this which doesn't affect you. Get a good leaving cert and go into politics or something and effect some real change


This discussion has been closed.
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