*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2015*

JF77

Does anyone know if the last 3 questions which acer are removing from the total score, are the same questions in each test booklet? For section 1 and 2, I know that they have questions in varying order depending on your test booklet.

If this was also the case for section 3, wouldn't that be unfair if there was varying degrees of difficulty with the qs. For example, a lot of people find the pick the middle questions harder than the next in the sequence.

I appreciate that the exam isn't fair and that perhaps acer's solution is most preferable in the circumstances but was just curious.

Thanks

futuremedic19

emma35 wrote:

have to agree with you there

it's very obvious they've made the last 3 questions the ones that don't count just to try and provide some sort of consolation for those who were in the Trinity Centre.

ronivek

JF77 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the last 3 questions which acer are removing from the total score, are the same questions in each test booklet? For section 1 and 2, I know that they have questions in varying order depending on your test booklet.

I'm pretty sure this is an urban myth; there is no pressing reason to have different test books and if anything it would make the entire process more costly for ACER.

Gallagher1

Anybody here seem to benefit from this non-scoring of the last 3 questions? Because I blind guessed the last three due to time constraints, never even looked at them.. The one time I decide to do the questions in order and not by question types..

LauraKc

Gallagher1 wrote: »

Anybody here seem to benefit from this non-scoring of the last 3 questions? Because I blind guessed the last three due to time constraints, never even looked at them.. The one time I decide to do the questions in order and not by question types..

Me! I guessed the last few questions too. Section three was so hard...

EoghanIRL

I think an aptitude test of some sorts is necessary but that it's fair to say acer aren't very good at this whole exam business.

Nocofee

Gas acer announcing that they're not counting the last 3 questions..when they never say or release anything

Kirby2k07

Yeah in fairness to save money acer just plugs all your numbers into a computer and randomly assigns percentiles

etherealfairy

Oh my God I am so done with this shambles of an exam..

Left all the Pick The Middles to the end and concentrated on the other questions... including these 'unmarked' ones.

In summary; the HPAT is a money-making scam that pretty much chooses medical students according to luck. That may be a bit of an exaggeration but there is no doubt that luck has a large part to play- whether probability works in your favour, whether the questions you did first/actually got done will be counted, whether your invigilator did their job right...

etherealfairy

Also, you mean to tell me that ACER have full-on lied about ending the exam too early? And that the government/medical schools TRUST this company?

dalta5billion

etherealfairy wrote: »

Also, you mean to tell me that ACER have full-on lied about ending the exam too early? And that the government/medical schools TRUST this company?

Is anyone who was in Goldsmith Hall willing to give a written statement regarding the timing?

If we can have our facts in order and have written statements we can do a media blitz over the Easter break.

futuremedic19

etherealfairy wrote:

Oh my God I am so done with this shambles of an exam..

etherealfairy wrote:

Left all the Pick The Middles to the end and concentrated on the other questions... including these 'unmarked' ones.

Exactly what I did and if we both miss out on medicine by like 5-10 points I'm sure we will both be fuming!!!

Daisies97

As tempted as I am to send a very strongly worded email to acer, I seriously doubt anything we do will make a difference! I spent the majority of my time on the next in series questions so three not being counted could have a huge impact on whether or not I get in I just can't understand how they thought this would resolve anything? Sure, a proportion of people who were screwed over in trinity will be relieved but I'm sure this will negatively impact far more candidates that it helps? Getting into medicine is so important for so many of us and for it's likelihood to be hanging in the balance due to an examiner's error is totally unacceptable. Sorry by the way, I know I haven't contributed anything useful to the conversation I just need to vent for a bit haha

emma35

haha its kind of like someone in acer was like ah here leave us alone and ditched even trying to be all aloof about it or even make their statement credible :L

futuremedic19

Daisies97 wrote:

As tempted as I am to send a very strongly worded email to acer, I seriously doubt anything we do will make a difference! I spent the majority of my time on the next in series questions so three not being counted could have a huge impact on whether or not I get in  I just can't understand how they thought this would resolve anything? Sure, a proportion of people who were screwed over in trinity will be relieved but I'm sure this will negatively impact far more candidates that it helps? Getting into medicine is so important for so many of us and for it's likelihood to be hanging in the balance due to an examiner's error is totally unacceptable. Sorry by the way, I know I haven't contributed anything useful to the conversation I just need to vent for a bit haha

It's so obvious they've made the last 3 questions the unmarked ones in order to try and do justice to the people in Goldsmith Hall.

I am just as furious as you about this. A lot of my S3 was guesswork and I honestly spent a lot of time on the final 5 question because I thought they were relatively easier and it was all for nothing now.

We should definitely write to ACER to complain. It's Fair enough to people who were in Goldsmith Hall however they are only a minority of candidates compared to the other Thousands of candidates who are now paying the price of lost marks because of this !!!

fitzyg

dalta5billion wrote: »

Is anyone who was in Goldsmith Hall willing to give a written statement regarding the timing?

If we can have our facts in order and have written statements we can do a media blitz over the Easter break.

I think I would be, and I know a few others who may be, but is there really any point? I've kind of given up tbh, Its just so disheartening to not even have the mistake acknowledged. theyre saying it didn't happen but several unconnected people came forward saying it did. there is not a chance that exam ended at 1:06. And as others have said, its a bit too convenient that the last 3 questions just 'happen' to be unscored. And its completely unfair to those in other centres who had the correct amount of time and spent it answering those questions. honestly I'm just so fed up of Acer and this BS exam. Ugh.
/rant over

spurious

Perhaps it's a new HPAT test to see who will fight for something when they know they are in the right?

OK, not really, but personally I'm amazed there isn't more hoohah about this. If I had been in the centre where I got less time than anyone else and then discovered nothing was being done about it, I would be getting senior legal advice. I would not let it rest.

sleepyheadh

spurious wrote: »

Perhaps it's a new HPAT test to see who will fight for something when they know they are in the right?

OK, not really, but personally I'm amazed there isn't more hoohah about this. If I had been in the centre where I got less time than anyone else and then discovered nothing was being done about it, I would be getting senior legal advice. I would not let it rest.

Is this over 3 minutes, not being given at the end of the exam? "Senior" legal advice might be excessive!

ronivek

spurious wrote: »

Perhaps it's a new HPAT test to see who will fight for something when they know they are in the right?

OK, not really, but personally I'm amazed there isn't more hoohah about this. If I had been in the centre where I got less time than anyone else and then discovered nothing was being done about it, I would be getting senior legal advice. I would not let it rest.

Most people seem to be viewing it as one additional issue tacked on to an already issue-riddled exam. In the grand scheme of things people probably have more pressing things on their minds such as maximising their Leaving Certificate points.

The more I read about it the more it feels like a well disguised lottery. Many people who really want Medicine are now forced to repeat the HPAT a number of times until they get 'lucky' enough to sit a paper that suits them.

The argument being used by Dr. Siun O'Flynn and other proponents of the test is that it is allowing people who wouldn't have had the chance to study medicine within the old system to now study medicine. This is true; but it appears to be much less about merit or suitability and much more about luck... they could just as easily draw numbers from a hat for everyone who scores 500 or more points in the Leaving Certificate.

spurious

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Is this over 3 minutes, not being given at the end of the exam? "Senior" legal advice might be excessive!

By senior I meant not just the local solicitor, not senior counsel, though you never know who knows who....

If the money was there, I don't see why there mightn't be grounds for an injunction. I'm not saying anyone will follow it through, I'm just surprised more people aren't kicking up about it.

If accounts are true (and I've no reason to doubt them), one group got less time than others to complete a fairly important test and nothing whatsoever seems to be being done by ACER to address that.

etherealfairy

ronivek wrote: »

The more I read about it the more it feels like a well disguised lottery.

THIS.

Nocofee

dalta5billion wrote: »

Is anyone who was in Goldsmith Hall willing to give a written statement regarding the timing?

If we can have our facts in order and have written statements we can do a media blitz over the Easter break.

Please please please do this, its about Time something proper is done

Nocofee

How do we even know that the last 3 questions aren't going to be counted??? That's just what they're saying to shut people up about their mistake. Serious justice is needed here lads.

Nocofee

spurious wrote: »

Perhaps it's a new HPAT test to see who will fight for something when they know they are in the right?

OK, not really, but personally I'm amazed there isn't more hoohah about this. If I had been in the centre where I got less time than anyone else and then discovered nothing was being done about it, I would be getting senior legal advice. I would not let it rest.

Actually has anYbody sought legal advice on this matter? Somebody has got to know someone who can help. Hpat SU your opinion?

dalta5billion

Nocofee wrote: »

Please please please do this, its about Time something proper is done

We'll need at least 2 (preferably more) signed statements contradicting ACER's claims that all candidates got equal time. The "investigation" sounds like a sham to me.

ACER haven't responded to my emails, but I've verified that the email posted here was also sent to another HPAT candidate.

I'm hoping to get the IMO on board, possibly an open letter to the IMT as well?

Legal action should be a last resort, as ideally we could kick up enough of a storm in the media to get something done. Legally speaking, Goldsmith Hall candidates have been discriminated against, in that they were not afforded the same amount of time to complete the examination. In cases of discrimination, I believe the Ombudsman is the correct method of taking such a case without incurring legal costs. Unless a lawyer was willing to take the case pro bono, a court case/application for an injunction would be uneconomical (although I'm open to information otherwise).

As a final resort, we could take ACER to court under consumer law (applicants undertook a contract with ACER to take exam, ACER didn't provide the time stated in that contract). Unfortunately ACER are registered in Australia, and the legal agreement signed by all HPAT applicants pretty much allows ACER to do whatever they want.

I see kicking up a fuss in the media as the best way to get something done in this country. However, we still don't have consensus on what exactly we want - do we want the HPAT results annulled? Given that ACER has shown such incompetence, how can they be trusted to do anything right?

etherealfairy

Shall we wait until HPAT results/CAO offers are out to 'kick up a fuss' or should we start now? Personally, I want to 'kick up a fuss' about the HPAT as a whole, this Goldsmith Hall mess-up is just one factor that strengthens its failure as a method of choosing medical students. I may be able to get in contact with RTé and various social media sites. Through these we could spread the STUDENTS' views regarding the current admissions process to medical schools.

Gallagher1

Nocofee wrote: »

Actually has anYbody sought legal advice on this matter? Somebody has got to know someone who can help. Hpat SU your opinion?

In all honesty, what could be achieved by getting legal advice? 250 students out of 2500 didn't get 3 minutes in a high stakes exam for entry to medicine. As I've said before I too would be fuming it happened to me but you realistically cant expect much (cancellation of exam, ACER giving students extra points) because it simply is not fair on everyone. Hate to sound pessimistic and/or mean but, in terms of luck, everyone in that Goldsmith hall just drew the short straw in what happened to them..Another day and this probably wouldn't have happened..

dalta5billion

etherealfairy wrote: »

Shall we wait until HPAT results/CAO offers are out to 'kick up a fuss' or should we start now? Personally, I want to 'kick up a fuss' about the HPAT as a whole, this Goldsmith Hall mess-up is just one factor that strengthens its failure as a method of choosing medical students. I may be able to get in contact with RTé and various social media sites. Through these we could spread the STUDENTS' views regarding the current admissions process to medical schools.

If we go on a media campaign, we need to have all the facts in our possession. I'd want a good number of signed statements saying the same thing before proceeding.

If you were in Goldsmith Hall, please write out an account of what happened, including interactions with supervisors, timing etc and then sign it, scan it/take a picture of it and send to hpatsu@gmail.com.

Your name and signature will not be shared with anyone.

EoghanIRL

Gallagher1 wrote: »

In all honesty, what could be achieved by getting legal advice? 250 students out of 2500 didn't get 3 minutes in a high stakes exam for entry to medicine. As I've said before I too would be fuming it happened to me but you realistically cant expect much (cancellation of exam, ACER giving students extra points) because it simply is not fair on everyone. Hate to sound pessimistic and/or mean but, in terms of luck, everyone in that Goldsmith hall just drew the short straw in what happened to them..Another day and this probably wouldn't have happened..

It probably would have though knowing acer's track record.

jom95

Just thought I'd put my two pence in here but Acer have the solution to the problem all wrong. The most fair solution for everyone would be to mark everyone out of 100 and based on the time/question ratio, adjust for goldsmith. For example, 30 questions in 40 minutes = 1.33 min per question which equals 1 minute 20 seconds per question. People in goldsmith got 5 minutes less which on average equals 5/1.33 = 3.75 questions left out. So just mark however many questions a certain candidate in goldsmith got right out of 30 - 3.75 = 26.25...one could argue that this wouldn't be fair, as a candidate who finished early(before the cut off) and got 28 questions right in goldsmith would get full marks compared to one who finished early in another centre and got 28 right. And of course one could point to the fact that different questions would be weighted differently, but they might have to distribute the marks equally for this section if they want to make it fair for everyone and retain their dignity (which was pretty thin even before this screw up).