Lough Ree Stock Assessment

Zzippy

hurler014 wrote: »

I'd say you would lol, a quick phonecall to the IFI to get out the nets.

What are you getting at?

allenup

i believe they netted lough ree specifically for pike culling in the past(20-30 years ago).the guys now in charge see that it was a pointless exercise.this is just a survey i understand,NOT a cull as a lot of misinformed /uninformed and outright clowns who dont even live near lough ree(never mind fish it) on their facebook page are assuming! reminds me of the hippys protesting at the glen of the downs and shell to sea!Even though i probably agreed with their stance on both of those issues :-)

bizidea

I hear from a realiable source the guys with the phds have lost a 200 metre long net somewhere off hare island.Doubt they would admit this though. will these well educated scholars be able to work out how many fish this will kill while it drifts around the lake or even the whole lenght of the Shannon

allenup

was out fishing yesterday in inny bay.water very high,but thats another story!

..met the guys setting the nets..my curiosity got the better of me,so i went over to them for a look after they set one.they had another one in the boat.I think they were local staff.and explained that these nets are marked at BOTH ends with heavy duty orange floats and adequate float line..the 200 metres of net has floats attached the whole way along! Lost NO-stolen YES.
Another uninformed comment by the previous poster! but i am sure that will continue!

bizidea

so there is definetly one of their nets missing

allenup

I didnt hear that! I am just telling you what i saw on their nets(floats at each end,and mini floats along the whole net)! I doubt there could be one missing..I stated that if there was one misplaced,it would definitely be STOLEN IF IT WAS MISPLACED! DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

bizidea

Sorry allenup from your previous post I thought you were saying that the IFI had told you that there was a net stolen when you were chatting to them. It will be interesting to see though if there is one of their nets gone

allenup

Thanks.. and why would it be interesting to see?So you people can bash IfI more?

bizidea

a 200m long net going missing why would it not be interesting it might be the Lough Ree monster that dragged it under.Do you mind me asking Have you any connection to the IFI Allenup you seem very defensive of them

allenup

Nope..but I ,like everyone on here am an angler,and have a huge interest in the results of this. We never hear the good side of any story on the internet,always the bad side.Yes-it may be the lough ree monster! without surveys we would never find out exactly what is down there i think! but its just my opinion!

Zzippy

bizidea wrote: »

I hear from a realiable source the guys with the phds have lost a 200 metre long net somewhere off hare island.Doubt they would admit this though. will these well educated scholars be able to work out how many fish this will kill while it drifts around the lake or even the whole lenght of the Shannon

allenup wrote: »

was out fishing yesterday in inny bay.water very high,but thats another story!

..met the guys setting the nets..my curiosity got the better of me,so i went over to them for a look after they set one.they had another one in the boat.I think they were local staff.and explained that these nets are marked at BOTH ends with heavy duty orange floats and adequate float line..the 200 metres of net has floats attached the whole way along! Lost NO-stolen YES.
Another uninformed comment by the previous poster! but i am sure that will continue!

bizidea wrote: »

a 200m long net going missing why would it not be interesting it might be the Lough Ree monster that dragged it under.Do you mind me asking Have you any connection to the IFI Allenup you seem very defensive of them

It wouldn't be the first time irresponsible idiots would have stolen survey nets. Survey nets are weighted at both ends, fitted with lead core foot rope, floating head rope, large buoys at either end to mark their location, and GPS readings are taken when nets are set. The likelihood of a net being stolen is infintely greater than a net going missing. But why let that get in the way of a good IFI bash?

popsy09

This is what I have been following on Facebook last week or so , this crowd are really against it

I'm not for/ against the whole situation myself I just enjoy reading up about it

jkchambers

Took today off work to pay a visit to lough Ree. Fellow IFPAC officer John Crudden met me at Portrunny Bay. In Athlone I picked up Chris Keogh of the Athlone based Midland Pike and Coarse Angling Club. IFI had not been informed of our trip. I had heard the the IFI boats generally finish up around 1 to 2pm. We arrived at Portrunny pier at 12.30. There was no sign of life. We waited around for 2 hours and decided to go to Lecarrow where there is also a launching area. There were 3 vehicles there with boat trailers with one clearly marked IFI. At around 3.30 the boat arrived with 3 IFI staff in it one of whom I knew. There are 4 teams our most days with each team servicing 4 nets. I asked the guys how it went. They told us they had around 6 pike 3 of which were tagged and released as they were over 70 cms. Another was healthy and under that length and was released and they thought one or two were dead and in a bag. They had got several trout with 4 around the 4Lb mark and which were released. They had got a good few roach and perch ans some were dead. We followed them back to the base, They were the last team in. At the base we met Eamonn Cunninghan, Chairman of the Lough Ree Federation. Two pike anglers from Kildare had also come along to observe. I have know Stephen for many years but hadnt seen him for a good while. The bags of dead fish were brought in and measured, scaled and had stomach contents examined. I think there were around 5 or 6 dead trout. There were 5 dead pike from about a pound to around 3 pounds. There were approx 50 dead roach and perch. We were told healthy fish were recorded and released. On the wall there was a chart which showed each net number and the number and species of fish caught in it. There were details given for the first 30 nets. In all there were 18 trout recorded, 31 pike, around 170 roach, 81 perch and 5 hybrids. These are the total catch not deaths. There were no tench, bream, chub or carp. It did appear that today`s catches were better that before and they wouldnt be in the figures above. Temperatures we up and fish are probably more active and hence more caught. We will probably pay another visit next week but it may be to Conn or maybe Corrib or Mask where trout are the only fish to be released.

allenup

A lot of people being economical about the truth on this forum. Its a great world when men can spend a day driving around the country side checking up on government agencies taking a few fish out of the rivers they control for scientific purposes! i suppose you are on a mileage allowance from your organisation(what are that organisation called again-the whingers? #always complaining)!

There are thousands of pike anglers who are not involved in clubs..99% of them are decent people who just get on with their fishing! This publicity about the SURVEY has gotten out of all control-spearheaded by a certain organisation.. and yesterday you can see for yourself that very few pike killed (and they were killed for a diet test i presume).

LOOK at the size of Lough Ree for f**k sake. #dropintheocean.

rpmcmurphy

allenup wrote: »

A lot of people being economical about the truth on this forum. Its a great world when men can spend a day driving around the country side checking up on government agencies taking a few fish out of the rivers they control for scientific purposes! i suppose you are on a mileage allowance from your organisation(what are that organisation called again-the whingers? #always complaining)!

There are thousands of pike anglers who are not involved in clubs..99% of them are decent people who just get on with their fishing! This publicity about the SURVEY has gotten out of all control-spearheaded by a certain organisation.. and yesterday you can see for yourself that very few pike killed (and they were killed for a diet test i presume).

LOOK at the size of Lough Ree for f**k sake. #dropintheocean.

With all due respect Allenup, jkchambers is one of the few posters on this forum who offers a balanced and unbiased view of current situations so to attempt to ridicule him for spending some of his own personal time in the best interests of his organisation is harsh and unjust.
Yes there is some IFI bashing on this and many other threads that I will never agree with. But slating others for seeking a clearer picture of these surveys first-hand is as narrow minded as the people who bash IFI at every turn indiscriminately.

danbrosnan

The whole situation has got outta hand but i do bash the IFI a lot but i agree with them here.. the survey fish of any kind there has to be some killing its just natural...

I wish they would survey every lake, stream and river in the country.. It gives us a great insight it the eco systems and how they are doing...

If i have any problem here is that they actually don't do enough of these surveys around the country..

jkchambers

rpmcmurphy wrote: »

With all due respect Allenup, jkchambers is one of the few posters on this forum who offers a balanced and unbiased view of current situations so to attempt to ridicule him for spending some of his own personal time in the best interests of his organisation is harsh and unjust.
Yes there is some IFI bashing on this and many other threads that I will never agree with. But slating others for seeking a clearer picture of these surveys first-hand is as narrow minded as the people who bash IFI at every turn indiscriminately.

I am against the use of gill nets for whatever purpose. Surveys are good and can give a lot of very useful information but there should be a more fish friendly method of capture of fish. As a pike angler I do not like our native pike being gillnetted and killed on the likes of Conn, Cullin, Mask, Corrib and Sheelin.
With regard to yesterday, we travelled there at our own expense. I reported what I saw and what we were told. It would have suited my anti gillnetting cause by claiming that there 500 dead pike or not reporting the trip at all. Reporting that 5 small pike were killed dosent really help my cause much but thats what we saw and I always call a spade a spade. Talking to IFI staff yesterday I made my anti gillnetting stance clear along with my feelings on pike removal from the above lakes. Staff know me and understand my position. We then went on to discuss organising grant applications for some clubs on the Suck and Inny. Thats the way it works.

danbrosnan

jkchambers wrote: »

I am against the use of gill nets for whatever purpose. Surveys are good and can give a lot of very useful information but there should be a more fish friendly method of capture of fish. As a pike angler I do not like our native pike being gillnetted and killed on the likes of Conn, Cullin, Mask, Corrib and Sheelin.
With regard to yesterday, we travelled there at our own expense. I reported what I saw and what we were told. It would have suited my anti gillnetting cause by claiming that there 500 dead pike or not reporting the trip at all. Reporting that 5 small pike were killed dosent really help my cause much but thats what we saw and I always call a spade a spade. Talking to IFI staff yesterday I made my anti gillnetting stance clear along with my feelings on pike removal from the above lakes. Staff know me and understand my position. We then went on to discuss organising grant applications for some clubs on the Suck and Inny. Thats the way it works.

But how do you survey pike?? Normal practise can not be done by fyke nets like a lot of surveys... Lakes are very hard to survey i feel that using gill nets is the only way!! What you think?

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

I am against the use of gill nets for whatever purpose. Surveys are good and can give a lot of very useful information but there should be a more fish friendly method of capture of fish. As a pike angler I do not like our native pike being gillnetted and killed on the likes of Conn, Cullin, Mask, Corrib and Sheelin.
With regard to yesterday, we travelled there at our own expense. I reported what I saw and what we were told. It would have suited my anti gillnetting cause by claiming that there 500 dead pike or not reporting the trip at all. Reporting that 5 small pike were killed dosent really help my cause much but thats what we saw and I always call a spade a spade. Talking to IFI staff yesterday I made my anti gillnetting stance clear along with my feelings on pike removal from the above lakes. Staff know me and understand my position. We then went on to discuss organising grant applications for some clubs on the Suck and Inny. Thats the way it works.

Some good points, but gillnetting is a standard survey technique used throughout the world to survey fish. This survey is part of Ireland's legal obligations under the Water Framework Directive, and the other member countries also use gillnets to survey fish. Gillnets continue to be used as they are statistically one of the most quantitative and reliable methods to sample fish, also the fact that previous surveys over many decades have used gillnets means that current results can be compared reliably with previous surveys. There are less invasive methods such as sonar, sidescan sonar, fykenetting, electro-fishing, but all of these have their drawbacks and do not give a representative sample of fish stocks. It would be great to be able to sample fish stocks in a completely non-invasive way, but it's simply not possible. It is also necessary to kill some fish in order to do diet analysis.

Long story short, gillnets are a necessary tool as part of fishery research, and that's all they are, a tool. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and the loss of some fish (in a very large lake) is an acceptable price for the benefit of having full knowledge of the current status of fish stocks. Some people are too caught up in C&R, or anti-establishment sh1t to care though.

allenup

I presume you will be posting on the pike federation forum and the many facebooks sites you frequent that this is a SURVEY,and NOT a cull on Pike JK? to quell the misinformation being placed on the internet.

Off topic slightly: Does anyone know if the pike world cup is being held on lough ree this year? thanks

bizidea

I would be all for surveying river and lakes and I am looking forward to seeing the results from this survey but surely in this day and age with all the technology that is in the world there must be some other way without gill netting. I do believe Ifi do a good job in some areas but sometimes I think they dont really care about some species of fish

allenup

i wonder how anyone could survey in 100ft deep of water other than with nets? ?

jkchambers

allenup wrote: »

I presume you will be posting on the pike federation forum and the many facebooks sites you frequent that this is a SURVEY,and NOT a cull on Pike JK? to quell the misinformation being placed on the internet.

Off topic slightly: Does anyone know if the pike world cup is being held on lough ree this year? thanks

Indeed I have. I did post that most of the pike go back as it is a stock assessment survey unlike whats happening on Corrib and Mask where all the NATIVE pike are removed and killed apart from some pike over 90cms which are returned.

jkchambers

Zzippy wrote: »

Some good points, but gillnetting is a standard survey technique used throughout the world to survey fish. This survey is part of Ireland's legal obligations under the Water Framework Directive, and the other member countries also use gillnets to survey fish. Gillnets continue to be used as they are statistically one of the most quantitative and reliable methods to sample fish, also the fact that previous surveys over many decades have used gillnets means that current results can be compared reliably with previous surveys. There are less invasive methods such as sonar, sidescan sonar, fykenetting, electro-fishing, but all of these have their drawbacks and do not give a representative sample of fish stocks. It would be great to be able to sample fish stocks in a completely non-invasive way, but it's simply not possible. It is also necessary to kill some fish in order to do diet analysis.

Long story short, gillnets are a necessary tool as part of fishery research, and that's all they are, a tool. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and the loss of some fish (in a very large lake) is an acceptable price for the benefit of having full knowledge of the current status of fish stocks. Some people are too caught up in C&R, or anti-establishment sh1t to care though.

If you look at the WFD surveys there are a range of nets used including fyke nets. I will come back with more info on stock assessments in the UK over the weekend. In a recent statement on the Lough Ree survey IFI say that they have been using the same survey methods for 35 years and list off a load of lakes that they have surveyed over the years. All these lakes are listed by IFI as "wild brown trout" fisheries. All the surveys have been carried out in Feb/Mar. When talking to a senior IFI person I suggested to him those months were selected because trout would have finished spawning and those nasty hen pike would be full of spawn and it would be a good time to get them. He just smiled. I would be confident in suggesting that in all previous stock assessment surveys carried out on the waters listed in the IFI statement all pike and all coarse fish would have been killed apart from the 13 pike over 85 cms released in the 2012 Corrib survey. Are IFI unwilling to try other methods of capture because CPUE statistics would have to start from scratch again if new, more fish friendly, fish capture methods were to be adopted.

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

Indeed I have. I did post that most of the pike go back as it is a stock assessment survey unlike whats happening on Corrib and Mask where all the NATIVE pike are removed and killed apart from some pike over 90cms which are returned.

Are they NATIVE to Corrib and Mask though? I know the research shows they are native to Ireland, but have you any evidence to show they have always been in the western lakes??? Not arguing that they should be culled, just wondering about this "native species" angle...

danbrosnan

Zzippy wrote: »

Are they NATIVE to Corrib and Mask though? I know the research shows they are native to Ireland, but have you any evidence to show they have always been in the western lakes??? Not arguing that they should be culled, just wondering about this "native species" angle...

Like in all fairness if people think pike are native to ireland there something wrong, they were introduced hundreds of years ago that's a fact, I don't care what studies they do..

jkchambers

Zzippy wrote: »

Are they NATIVE to Corrib and Mask though? I know the research shows they are native to Ireland, but have you any evidence to show they have always been in the western lakes??? Not arguing that they should be culled, just wondering about this "native species" angle...

I have no evidence that pike have been in the Western Lakes since just after the ice age but can anyone produce evidence that they havent !!

jkchambers

danbrosnan wrote: »

Like in all fairness if people think pike are native to ireland there something wrong, they were introduced hundreds of years ago that's a fact, I don't care what studies they do..

Have a read. Also note that the report was also signed off by Dr Martin O`Grady.
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Dad/My%20Documents/Downloads/Pike%20Layman's%20Report%20(1).pdf
Above link dosent seem to work . You can get it 2/3 way down this page
http://www.fisheriesireland.ie/Press-releases/new-study-reveals-pike-native-to-ireland.html

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

I have no evidence that pike have been in the Western Lakes since just after the ice age but can anyone produce evidence that they havent !!

You were the one who called them NATIVE when referring to Corrib/Mask, I would assume you either have evidence to back up that statement or were making a rather large assumption. It is this kind of stretch that annoys local people, whose local lore is that pike are not native, who have been removing pike for many years in order to manage the lake as a trout fishery, and who object to pike anglers (who have hundreds of excellent pike fisheries around the country) trying to turn their lake into another pike fishery.

I'm not saying they're right, but their local lore and customs carry as much weight as your lack of evidence for the native status of pike in Corrib, and like people everywhere, they resent outsiders coming in and lecturing them on why they're totally wrong. I personally don't agree with removing pike, but I detest the attitude displayed by many pike anglers - extremely vitriolic and abusive in some cases, and I can understand the attitude of locals to the above.

allenup

you summed it up perfectly.ALL clubs on lough ree are in favour of it.Apart from some unknown club in athlone called midland something or other(not very active anyhow by all accounts)! its sensationalist rubbish by gombeens who have not a clue what lough ree even looks like! its always the outsiders that cause the problems! bit like an taisce submitting objections to planning permission in the countryside.some pen pusher in an office in dublin !

I have enough said on this topic now..keeping this thread going is only encouraging the minority of people who dont understand why scientific research is needed!