Lough Ree Stock Assessment

jkchambers

Yesterday IFI announced details of a major stock assessment to be carried our on Lough Ree. I just posted a report on last nights meeting on the IFPAC (pike fed) message board. Below is what I posted
" John Crudden and myself attended the information meeting last night. There were around 35 anglers and 6 or 7 IFI staff present. Amanda Mooney of IFI gave a brief outline of what was going to happen and them handed over to Dr Martin O`Grady who went through things in detail. Weather conditions being reasonable they will start next Monday. 5 crews will lay 5 nets each morning. They will lift the nets the next morning and set more. 200 net locations have been selected by a computer on a random basis. It will take 2 to 3 weeks to get all 200 sites done depending on weather. Braided gill nets will be used. Orange markers will show the location of the nets. Nets will be down Monday to Friday only.
Dr O Grady said that they will be able to determine distribution, growth rates, diet and genetics for each species.It will be the first time that a comprehensive survey of Lough Ree will have been completed. Some EU funding is in place for the project. All pike over 70cms will be floy tagged. This is being done to try to establish the stock of adult pike in the lake. At the lough Ree angling festival in April competitors will be asked to record the number of pike they catch over 70cms with and without the tags. There is nothing sinister planned hear as all the clubs around lough Ree are pike friendly.
It is not known whether there are Asian Clams in Lough Ree. The teams will take dredge samples at each of the 200 locations to see whether they are present and, if they are, their distribution around the lake.
The genetics studies will be carried out at Queens University Belfast.
A big survey was carried out on Lough Corrib at this time 2 years ago. At that survey all coarse fish and most pike were killed. At the time Godfrey and myself went over to view nets being lifted. IFI laid on a boat and brought us and some other interested parties around. You may remember that I commented on the large number of big roach bream hybrids that were caught. After the meeting last night I chatted to Dr O`Grady for a while on a few issues. He mentioned that further examination of the Corrib hybrids showed that they were all of the same year class. All 12 years old.He decided to do some more research and looked at the weather for 2000. It appears that roach would normally spawn earlier than bream. However in 2000 it appears that it was very cold for a long time and then temperatures shot up. This got the roach spawning later than normal and at the very same time as bream. Research also showed that the male roach was, what shall I say, a lot busier than male bream so the hybrids that they found came from male roach and female bream. None of the hybrids were capable of spawning."

danbrosnan

Great litte read wish they could do studies like this on every lake in the country....

bizidea

dont get why they have to survey the lake with gill nets there will be a lot of fish killed in these nets will there not is there no other way for them to survey it

jkchambers

bizidea wrote: »

dont get why they have to survey the lake with gill nets there will be a lot of fish killed in these nets will there not is there no other way for them to survey it

They estimate 30% will not survive. They say it is the most efficient method and has always been used. To compare surveys done in different years you need to use same nets at same locations at same time of year. While the number of fish killed may seem high it would only represent a very tiny proportion of the stocks in the lake. I am not trying to justify gill nets I would much prefer a more efficient, fish friendly method.

danbrosnan

Fyke nets prob wouldn't be sufficient in the lake?

Tbh i would have no problem with the killing of a few fish if it meant that you could get a scientific analysis of the lake, then the proper precautions could be taken to keep stock up and healthy...

bizidea

doubt they got too many nets down today was rough enough looking out there.

jkchambers

http://www.fisheriesireland.ie/Notices/lough-ree-survey.html

popsy09

i am following a debate on facebook about this seems like alot of people are in total dis-agreement with it saying its the pike prime spawning season and the % of fish that will survive will not be acceptable , i must say they make some valid points but i wonder will they be able to stop it

jkchambers

popsy09 wrote: »

i am following a debate on facebook about this seems like alot of people are in total dis-agreement with it saying its the pike prime spawning season and the % of fish that will survive will not be acceptable , i must say they make some valid points but i wonder will they be able to stop it

what facebook page ?
I posted this on the IFPAC message board
" I did mention that EU funding is in place for this survey. It is being done in Feb/March when pike would normally be in around the shores spawning so it is unlikely that a good assessment of pike numbers etc will be obtained. Bream and tench will hardly be moving at all as temperatures are far too low at this time of year. They should get good info on trout, roach and hybrids (maybe they may also find a carp or a chub). If they really wanted to get a good comprehensive survey done on all species would late Summer not be a much better time ? It makes you wonder whether this is meant to be a proper comprehensive fish stock survey or just a trout survey in disguise !!

popsy09

if you like "purple whiskers" a company up north he put up an article about it and got very good response

allenup

i was at the meeting,and agree fully with this survey..certain elements on here(who may have been at the meeting! ) are always out to undermine IFI. I happen to live near lough Ree , and am keeping an eye on this survey! Very few fish are killed. I cant wait to see the full results of it. It seems like a lot of coarse fish are showing up, which is very interesting..can anyone tell me how a comprehensive survey will be carried out another way?? ALL clubs on Lough Ree are in favour of it by the way..It seems the PALE brigade in Dublin are trolling on the net again! nothing new there.

hurler014

The IFI are a bit of a joke in all of this with so much of the negative publicity. The water frameworks study needs to be carried out but the timing, as they have been doing for the last 30 years demonstrates how the IFI have a total disregard for pike, catch the big ones in the gill nets just as they are about to spawn. All fish will be killed after tangling with these nets within a few hours. If they have any interest in not killing pike to protect trout stocks perhaps draft netting is an option to be explored: take what you need for research purposes then release the rest.

jkchambers

allenup wrote: »

i was at the meeting,and agree fully with this survey..certain elements on here(who may have been at the meeting! ) are always out to undermine IFI. I happen to live near lough Ree , and am keeping an eye on this survey! Very few fish are killed. I cant wait to see the full results of it. It seems like a lot of coarse fish are showing up, which is very interesting..can anyone tell me how a comprehensive survey will be carried out another way?? ALL clubs on Lough Ree are in favour of it by the way..It seems the PALE brigade in Dublin are trolling on the net again! nothing new there.

I was at the meeting and I am from Dublin. I am Chairman of IFPAC the pike fed who have a couple of affiliated clubs in the area. This is completely the wrong time of year to carry out a stock assessment survey. Pike are spawning and bream and tench wont be moving until the water temperatures rise a lot. If this was being carried out just before the trout spawning time I wonder whether you would approve so much ? I am not against stock assessment surveys as they can provide very useful information. It is the time of year that is the main problem and, of course, we would like an alternative method of capture to gill nets
Smaller surveys have been carried out on the lake in 2013 and 2010 under the waterframework directive.
2013 preliminary results
http://wfdfish.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Ree_prel_report_2013.pdf
2010
http://wfdfish.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Ree_report_2010.pdf
For those who dont know much about gill nets below is a link to a page on the old IFPAC website which was put up in 2004
http://www.angling-in-ireland.com/archive/pages/Gillnet%20Page1.htm

danbrosnan

Is the lough land locked? why no salmon or sea trout..??? i not familiar with the area being from kerry..

jkchambers

danbrosnan wrote: »

Is the lough land locked? why no salmon or sea trout..??? i not familiar with the area being from kerry..

No its not landlocked, its on the Shannon above Athlone. i honestly dont know about salmon or sea trout

hurler014

It seems so: http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1952060400058.
I don't know the cause of their demise. Perhaps dams along the Shannon may be involved somehow? I'm not sure.

hurler014

Here's another news story in an English paper, we may wonder why less British angling tourists make the trip over here. If only we managed our fishing resources better for the good of the many disclipines.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/fishing-lines-legend-of-giant-pike-could-grow-and-grow-1130432.html
On another note, I wonder if the fishermen/netsmen on lough Ree many years ago used draft nets, there seems to be a sustainability to their livelihood if netting practices were passed over a few generations. Different times though with many other factors coming into play.

bencarvosso

you are right.... but that news clipping from the english indo is from 1999

hurler014

Ya I know lad, I was just usin it as an example how fecked up pike and coarse angling policies by the ifi are over here and shag all has changed really since then, I should have said that.

jkchambers

This thread has so far got around 160 posts on the inland fisheries ireland facebook page. You have to go down the page a bit to find it as lots of new news items have been posted.

bencarvosso

hurler014 wrote: »

Ya I know lad, I was just usin it as an example how fecked up pike and coarse angling policies by the ifi are over here and shag all has changed really since then, I should have said that.

i totally agree mate

allenup

very few fish get killed in these nets.for PEOPLE on here who do not know Lough Ree very well, it is a vast vast lake..I reckon that not even 0.001% of the lake is covered by this survey..given that about 2 fish die per net(usually trout by the way), this is a very small number! NO TIME is ideal for a netting survey.but as usual the usual moaners complain about absolutely everything the fisheries people do.And as most are aware all of these people are qualified in their field to masters or PhD level, and have spent years studying fisheries science, zoology and environmental science.I believe that the are the authority that should be respected..but i understand peoples concerns,especially when they are uneducated guesses at what is happening.

hurler014

allenup wrote: »

very few fish get killed in these nets.for PEOPLE on here who do not know Lough Ree very well, it is a vast vast lake..I reckon that not even 0.001% of the lake is covered by this survey..given that about 2 fish die per net(usually trout by the way), this is a very small number! NO TIME is ideal for a netting survey.but as usual the usual moaners complain about absolutely everything the fisheries people do.And as most are aware all of these people are qualified in their field to masters or PhD level, and have spent years studying fisheries science, zoology and environmental science.I believe that the are the authority that should be respected..but i understand peoples concerns,especially when they are uneducated guesses at what is happening.

Perhaps if you are going to be critical of people and deem them uneducated you had best use a facility on your computed to improve your grammar. As regards to comments stating that pike are not killed in any great numbers you might want to look up Water Framework reports on the numbers of pike and coarse fish killed repeatedly in ongoing studies. The Corrib report from 2 years ago states that trout numbers and trout sizes have decreased even though pike numbers have also been vastly reduced due to gill nets/culling. There is a bias in this country plain for people to see towards game angling and I do fish for salmon and trout myself. Pike are native Irish fish and have co existed with game species for centuries, many people would not like to see our pike sngling decimated by the IFI. You do realise the vast angling contribution that pike and coarse angling adds to the economy, perhaps you should also reason with the belief that many British anglers do not frequent our country as much anymore to avail of the 'great' pike and coarse angling opportunities? Oh yes I forgot, trout are nicer to eat and prettier!

allenup

true.my grammer is not the best.I have not formal education!!! I do agree with your points, but regarding the Water Framework, i believe this practice is taking place all over Europe.Stock assessments.The Lough Ree survey is not a culling exercise we have been assured.We were told at the meeting that the lab are of the local office near athlone is open for anyone to observe if they want. I think it is finishing friday though.

By the way, everyone knows that pike,no matter how hard anyone tries can be eradicated from any water.Trout on the other hand are slightly different,and less tolerant to interference.

hurler014

allenup wrote: »

true.my grammer is not the best.I have not formal education!!! I do agree with your points, but regarding the Water Framework, i believe this practice is taking place all over Europe.Stock assessments.The Lough Ree survey is not a culling exercise we have been assured.We were told at the meeting that the lab are of the local office near athlone is open for anyone to observe if they want. I think it is finishing friday though.

By the way, everyone knows that pike,no matter how hard anyone tries can be eradicated from any water.Trout on the other hand are slightly different,and less tolerant to interference.

The big thing is that its the wrong time of the year to be netting especially with pike as they will soon be spawning. Yes the water frameworks Directive is a necessity but as I have stated the timing and use of nets do pike little good.
On the subject of gill netting, nets have gone up in Loughs Cullin and Conn. All coarse fish will be killed and the majority of pike captured will also suffer the same fate. The Corrib and Mask will also be gill netted and all pike and coarse fish will be killed. Pike and trout have shared the same waterways for centuries and both have prospered.

jkchambers

There was a complete stock assessment on Corrib in Feb 2012. I went out on a boat observing 4 nets of 220 metres in length being lifted. We were close to the boats at all times. Only 1 pike and 1 trout were caught over the 4 nets and both were dead.Around 70 to 80 perch, roach and roach bream hybrids were caught. At least half were dead and the other half were soon dead as none were released as would be the practice on a "wild brown trout fishery". My one days experience of the lifting of around half a mile of nets set for 24 hours was that at least 50% of the fish were dead. I enclose a link to where I posted a report and snaps at the time
http://www.angling-in-ireland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=358&start=30

hurler014

They probably won't get too many pike on the Corrib this time, going from reports from a couple of end of season trout club pike comps very little pike were caught, two pike by members of one club and one pike by a member of another club. Mask probably won't be much different.

allenup

i don't think pike will become extinct any time soon! as for perch and roach, the lake is full of them.Its not nice seeing any fish killed, but i do predict that this survey will put Ree on the coarse fishing map.it seems that a lot of large roche/bream hybrids are being caught in the nets!

demanufactured

allenup wrote: »

i don't think pike will become extinct any time soon! as for perch and roach, the lake is full of them.Its not nice seeing any fish killed, but i do predict that this survey will put Ree on the coarse fishing map.it seems that a lot of large roche/bream hybrids are being caught in the nets!

Ree has been on the coarse fishing map for a long time , but the Bream of yesteryear are long gone.

allenup

where do people fish for coarse fish on Lough Ree as they do on Lough Allen? I would love to know..apart from Ballybay.

hurler014

allenup wrote: »

where do people fish for coarse fish on Lough Ree as they do on Lough Allen? I would love to know..apart from Ballybay.

I'd say you would lol, a quick phonecall to the IFI to get out the nets.

Zzippy

hurler014 wrote: »

I'd say you would lol, a quick phonecall to the IFI to get out the nets.

What are you getting at?

allenup

i believe they netted lough ree specifically for pike culling in the past(20-30 years ago).the guys now in charge see that it was a pointless exercise.this is just a survey i understand,NOT a cull as a lot of misinformed /uninformed and outright clowns who dont even live near lough ree(never mind fish it) on their facebook page are assuming! reminds me of the hippys protesting at the glen of the downs and shell to sea!Even though i probably agreed with their stance on both of those issues :-)

bizidea

I hear from a realiable source the guys with the phds have lost a 200 metre long net somewhere off hare island.Doubt they would admit this though. will these well educated scholars be able to work out how many fish this will kill while it drifts around the lake or even the whole lenght of the Shannon

allenup

was out fishing yesterday in inny bay.water very high,but thats another story!

..met the guys setting the nets..my curiosity got the better of me,so i went over to them for a look after they set one.they had another one in the boat.I think they were local staff.and explained that these nets are marked at BOTH ends with heavy duty orange floats and adequate float line..the 200 metres of net has floats attached the whole way along! Lost NO-stolen YES.
Another uninformed comment by the previous poster! but i am sure that will continue!

bizidea

so there is definetly one of their nets missing

allenup

I didnt hear that! I am just telling you what i saw on their nets(floats at each end,and mini floats along the whole net)! I doubt there could be one missing..I stated that if there was one misplaced,it would definitely be STOLEN IF IT WAS MISPLACED! DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

bizidea

Sorry allenup from your previous post I thought you were saying that the IFI had told you that there was a net stolen when you were chatting to them. It will be interesting to see though if there is one of their nets gone

allenup

Thanks.. and why would it be interesting to see?So you people can bash IfI more?

bizidea

a 200m long net going missing why would it not be interesting it might be the Lough Ree monster that dragged it under.Do you mind me asking Have you any connection to the IFI Allenup you seem very defensive of them

allenup

Nope..but I ,like everyone on here am an angler,and have a huge interest in the results of this. We never hear the good side of any story on the internet,always the bad side.Yes-it may be the lough ree monster! without surveys we would never find out exactly what is down there i think! but its just my opinion!

Zzippy

bizidea wrote: »

I hear from a realiable source the guys with the phds have lost a 200 metre long net somewhere off hare island.Doubt they would admit this though. will these well educated scholars be able to work out how many fish this will kill while it drifts around the lake or even the whole lenght of the Shannon

allenup wrote: »

was out fishing yesterday in inny bay.water very high,but thats another story!

..met the guys setting the nets..my curiosity got the better of me,so i went over to them for a look after they set one.they had another one in the boat.I think they were local staff.and explained that these nets are marked at BOTH ends with heavy duty orange floats and adequate float line..the 200 metres of net has floats attached the whole way along! Lost NO-stolen YES.
Another uninformed comment by the previous poster! but i am sure that will continue!

bizidea wrote: »

a 200m long net going missing why would it not be interesting it might be the Lough Ree monster that dragged it under.Do you mind me asking Have you any connection to the IFI Allenup you seem very defensive of them

It wouldn't be the first time irresponsible idiots would have stolen survey nets. Survey nets are weighted at both ends, fitted with lead core foot rope, floating head rope, large buoys at either end to mark their location, and GPS readings are taken when nets are set. The likelihood of a net being stolen is infintely greater than a net going missing. But why let that get in the way of a good IFI bash?

popsy09

This is what I have been following on Facebook last week or so , this crowd are really against it

I'm not for/ against the whole situation myself I just enjoy reading up about it

jkchambers

Took today off work to pay a visit to lough Ree. Fellow IFPAC officer John Crudden met me at Portrunny Bay. In Athlone I picked up Chris Keogh of the Athlone based Midland Pike and Coarse Angling Club. IFI had not been informed of our trip. I had heard the the IFI boats generally finish up around 1 to 2pm. We arrived at Portrunny pier at 12.30. There was no sign of life. We waited around for 2 hours and decided to go to Lecarrow where there is also a launching area. There were 3 vehicles there with boat trailers with one clearly marked IFI. At around 3.30 the boat arrived with 3 IFI staff in it one of whom I knew. There are 4 teams our most days with each team servicing 4 nets. I asked the guys how it went. They told us they had around 6 pike 3 of which were tagged and released as they were over 70 cms. Another was healthy and under that length and was released and they thought one or two were dead and in a bag. They had got several trout with 4 around the 4Lb mark and which were released. They had got a good few roach and perch ans some were dead. We followed them back to the base, They were the last team in. At the base we met Eamonn Cunninghan, Chairman of the Lough Ree Federation. Two pike anglers from Kildare had also come along to observe. I have know Stephen for many years but hadnt seen him for a good while. The bags of dead fish were brought in and measured, scaled and had stomach contents examined. I think there were around 5 or 6 dead trout. There were 5 dead pike from about a pound to around 3 pounds. There were approx 50 dead roach and perch. We were told healthy fish were recorded and released. On the wall there was a chart which showed each net number and the number and species of fish caught in it. There were details given for the first 30 nets. In all there were 18 trout recorded, 31 pike, around 170 roach, 81 perch and 5 hybrids. These are the total catch not deaths. There were no tench, bream, chub or carp. It did appear that today`s catches were better that before and they wouldnt be in the figures above. Temperatures we up and fish are probably more active and hence more caught. We will probably pay another visit next week but it may be to Conn or maybe Corrib or Mask where trout are the only fish to be released.

allenup

A lot of people being economical about the truth on this forum. Its a great world when men can spend a day driving around the country side checking up on government agencies taking a few fish out of the rivers they control for scientific purposes! i suppose you are on a mileage allowance from your organisation(what are that organisation called again-the whingers? #always complaining)!

There are thousands of pike anglers who are not involved in clubs..99% of them are decent people who just get on with their fishing! This publicity about the SURVEY has gotten out of all control-spearheaded by a certain organisation.. and yesterday you can see for yourself that very few pike killed (and they were killed for a diet test i presume).

LOOK at the size of Lough Ree for f**k sake. #dropintheocean.

rpmcmurphy

allenup wrote: »

A lot of people being economical about the truth on this forum. Its a great world when men can spend a day driving around the country side checking up on government agencies taking a few fish out of the rivers they control for scientific purposes! i suppose you are on a mileage allowance from your organisation(what are that organisation called again-the whingers? #always complaining)!

There are thousands of pike anglers who are not involved in clubs..99% of them are decent people who just get on with their fishing! This publicity about the SURVEY has gotten out of all control-spearheaded by a certain organisation.. and yesterday you can see for yourself that very few pike killed (and they were killed for a diet test i presume).

LOOK at the size of Lough Ree for f**k sake. #dropintheocean.

With all due respect Allenup, jkchambers is one of the few posters on this forum who offers a balanced and unbiased view of current situations so to attempt to ridicule him for spending some of his own personal time in the best interests of his organisation is harsh and unjust.
Yes there is some IFI bashing on this and many other threads that I will never agree with. But slating others for seeking a clearer picture of these surveys first-hand is as narrow minded as the people who bash IFI at every turn indiscriminately.

danbrosnan

The whole situation has got outta hand but i do bash the IFI a lot but i agree with them here.. the survey fish of any kind there has to be some killing its just natural...

I wish they would survey every lake, stream and river in the country.. It gives us a great insight it the eco systems and how they are doing...

If i have any problem here is that they actually don't do enough of these surveys around the country..

jkchambers

rpmcmurphy wrote: »

With all due respect Allenup, jkchambers is one of the few posters on this forum who offers a balanced and unbiased view of current situations so to attempt to ridicule him for spending some of his own personal time in the best interests of his organisation is harsh and unjust.
Yes there is some IFI bashing on this and many other threads that I will never agree with. But slating others for seeking a clearer picture of these surveys first-hand is as narrow minded as the people who bash IFI at every turn indiscriminately.

I am against the use of gill nets for whatever purpose. Surveys are good and can give a lot of very useful information but there should be a more fish friendly method of capture of fish. As a pike angler I do not like our native pike being gillnetted and killed on the likes of Conn, Cullin, Mask, Corrib and Sheelin.
With regard to yesterday, we travelled there at our own expense. I reported what I saw and what we were told. It would have suited my anti gillnetting cause by claiming that there 500 dead pike or not reporting the trip at all. Reporting that 5 small pike were killed dosent really help my cause much but thats what we saw and I always call a spade a spade. Talking to IFI staff yesterday I made my anti gillnetting stance clear along with my feelings on pike removal from the above lakes. Staff know me and understand my position. We then went on to discuss organising grant applications for some clubs on the Suck and Inny. Thats the way it works.

danbrosnan

jkchambers wrote: »

I am against the use of gill nets for whatever purpose. Surveys are good and can give a lot of very useful information but there should be a more fish friendly method of capture of fish. As a pike angler I do not like our native pike being gillnetted and killed on the likes of Conn, Cullin, Mask, Corrib and Sheelin.
With regard to yesterday, we travelled there at our own expense. I reported what I saw and what we were told. It would have suited my anti gillnetting cause by claiming that there 500 dead pike or not reporting the trip at all. Reporting that 5 small pike were killed dosent really help my cause much but thats what we saw and I always call a spade a spade. Talking to IFI staff yesterday I made my anti gillnetting stance clear along with my feelings on pike removal from the above lakes. Staff know me and understand my position. We then went on to discuss organising grant applications for some clubs on the Suck and Inny. Thats the way it works.

But how do you survey pike?? Normal practise can not be done by fyke nets like a lot of surveys... Lakes are very hard to survey i feel that using gill nets is the only way!! What you think?

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

I am against the use of gill nets for whatever purpose. Surveys are good and can give a lot of very useful information but there should be a more fish friendly method of capture of fish. As a pike angler I do not like our native pike being gillnetted and killed on the likes of Conn, Cullin, Mask, Corrib and Sheelin.
With regard to yesterday, we travelled there at our own expense. I reported what I saw and what we were told. It would have suited my anti gillnetting cause by claiming that there 500 dead pike or not reporting the trip at all. Reporting that 5 small pike were killed dosent really help my cause much but thats what we saw and I always call a spade a spade. Talking to IFI staff yesterday I made my anti gillnetting stance clear along with my feelings on pike removal from the above lakes. Staff know me and understand my position. We then went on to discuss organising grant applications for some clubs on the Suck and Inny. Thats the way it works.

Some good points, but gillnetting is a standard survey technique used throughout the world to survey fish. This survey is part of Ireland's legal obligations under the Water Framework Directive, and the other member countries also use gillnets to survey fish. Gillnets continue to be used as they are statistically one of the most quantitative and reliable methods to sample fish, also the fact that previous surveys over many decades have used gillnets means that current results can be compared reliably with previous surveys. There are less invasive methods such as sonar, sidescan sonar, fykenetting, electro-fishing, but all of these have their drawbacks and do not give a representative sample of fish stocks. It would be great to be able to sample fish stocks in a completely non-invasive way, but it's simply not possible. It is also necessary to kill some fish in order to do diet analysis.

Long story short, gillnets are a necessary tool as part of fishery research, and that's all they are, a tool. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and the loss of some fish (in a very large lake) is an acceptable price for the benefit of having full knowledge of the current status of fish stocks. Some people are too caught up in C&R, or anti-establishment sh1t to care though.

allenup

I presume you will be posting on the pike federation forum and the many facebooks sites you frequent that this is a SURVEY,and NOT a cull on Pike JK? to quell the misinformation being placed on the internet.

Off topic slightly: Does anyone know if the pike world cup is being held on lough ree this year? thanks