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Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace
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FreudianSlippers wrote: »Obfuscation at its finest in ignoring the real question there.
With regard to the "his property is his property" mistake; I presume you're under the impression that work he did of a personal nature at his job is also his property?
I believe that anything addressed to him alone is of a personal nature.
I have loads of notes, letters etc in my place of employment that have nothing to do with the job.
Now unless you have any proof otherwise we are done here.
I never liked the man and wanted him gone as well as his bosses BUT I won't condemn him in this instance because I have no proof of anything illegal.
Now answer the question I put to you.
Do you think Enda shafted him that night?0 -
From here http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/09/07/the-destruction-of-files-can-never-be-tolerated/Further to this, John Mooney, in yesterday’s Sunday Times, made reference to Callinan and the shredding of his papers and diary.
He wrote:
“Fennelly made no adverse finding against Callinan, and did not accuse him or Garda Headquarters of destroying evidence, but it did make references to the various controversies which had beset the commissioner between late 2012 and early 2014. Callinan is likely to have sent texts and made entries into his 2013 diary about these events.”
“In 2013, for example, the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission (Gsoc) sent a file to the Department of Justice on Operation Castle, an investigation into collusion between the international drugs trafficker Kieran Boylan and gardai. It outlined how young criminals were set up for arrest in legally dubious circumstances while Boylan was permitted to import huge quantities of drugs. Callinan was among the senior officers implicated in the scandal, and was accused of blocking the Gsoc investigation for years.”
“In 2013 also, Callinan told Simon O’Brien, the Gsoc chairman, he was concerned about the information that The Sunday Times was publishing about sensitive investigations. This remark and other issues prompted the garda watchdog to hire Verrimus, a British firm, to advise on internal security in late 2013. The company advised Gsoc of “technical and electronic anomalies” that could not be explained, and raised concerns about the integrity of its communications system. The cancellation of penalty points also became a big issue during 2013.”
Indeed.
It was on April 19, 2013, that the Irish Independent published Gemma O’Doherty’s story that Callinan himself had penalty points wiped.
In addition, Gavin Sheridan, in yesterday Sunday Business Post, wrote:
‘Eleven years ago, in 2004, when the first report of the Morris Tribunal was published a specific criticism was made. “The destruction by a member of any official files after retirement…can never be tolerated…It should be made clear to all gardaí that such documentation is the property of An Garda Síochána. It does not belong to the member concerned,” Judge Morris wrote.’
Callinan was a senior Garda in the Louth/Meath division while the Kieran Boylan affair was happening. This was the scandal where Gardai not only turned a blind eye to the importation of heroin but also successfully lobbied the Dept of the Environment to secure Boylan an international hauliers licence after the Dept copped he had previous convictions for importing drugs. Yes, thats right, the Gardai secured a convicted drug trafficker a driving licence so he could use his haulage company to continue to import heroin.
We'll never know the exact details now but I've little doubt in my mind that GSOCs investigation of the Kieran Boylan affair was front and centre in Callinan's mind throughout 2013 and 20140 -
They could be considered owned by the company if they so wished. If you create any letters or notes in the workplace, copyright law is clear as to who the owner is. Even on lunch or other breaks, if company property was used to create same it would belong to the company.tayto lover wrote: »I believe that anything addressed to him alone is of a personal nature.
I have loads of notes, letters etc in my place of employment that have nothing to do with the job.
It would certainly also be deemed very likely that any letters received to you at work would be in the course of your employment (otherwise why would they be addressed to your place of employment?)
You're making an assertion that he was correct legally and morally to destroy documents that potentially belonged to the State. You're the one who needs to bring out the proof.Now unless you have any proof otherwise we are done here.
It's commonly accepted and well established law that copyright vests with the employer in items created in the workplace; it is also well inside the realm of plausibility in employment contracts that documents received at work are prima facie property of the employer. Even just looking at a standard boilerplate employment contract, I can see it could be covered by the confidential information clause or the data protection clause.
I don't think "Enda shafted him" because I'm not loose with my words. I think that Commissioner Callinan was constructively dismissed - that's my opinion on the summary of the report; but frankly, I'm not all that interested in this side-show.Now answer the question I put to you.
Do you think Enda shafted him that night?0 -
FreudianSlippers wrote: »They could be considered owned by the company if they so wished. If you create any letters or notes in the workplace, copyright law is clear as to who the owner is. Even on lunch or other breaks, if company property was used to create same it would belong to the company.
It would certainly also be deemed very likely that any letters received to you at work would be in the course of your employment (otherwise why would they be addressed to your place of employment?)
You're making an assertion that he was correct legally and morally to destroy documents that potentially belonged to the State. You're the one who needs to bring out the proof.
It's commonly accepted and well established law that copyright vests with the employer in items created in the workplace; it is also well inside the realm of plausibility in employment contracts that documents received at work are prima facie property of the employer. Even just looking at a standard boilerplate employment contract, I can see it could be covered by the confidential information clause or the data protection clause.
I don't think "Enda shafted him" because I'm not loose with my words. I think that Commissioner Callinan was constructively dismissed - that's my opinion on the summary of the report; but frankly, I'm not all that interested in this side-show.
I don't give a damn about the Commissioner either.
I do think that he is allowed the benefit of innocence until proved guilty though and I still believe that your personal letters, books, diaries, stationary, holiday brochures, dictionaries etc are your own. How do we know that he didn't provide them himself? You're jumping the gun and maybe trying to deflect here.0 -
tayto lover wrote: »AND we don't know if they were otherwise either.
The trouble here is that while innocent until proven guilty of course applies, there are legitimate, probable causes for suspicion about Callinan's shredding of documents, such that the act of shredding them in and of itself makes it reasonable to suspect that they may have been suspicious.
Bit of a mouthful, but you get the point - if I was suspected of a crime, say abduction, and I suddenly went and had my car crushed in a landfill, the Gardai wouldn't be saying "there might have been nothing in the car and we can't prove otherwise", they'd be saying "the destruction of the car during an investigation into hatrickpatrick's behavior is in and of itself grounds for suspicion that evidence was being destroyed".
You could make a similar analogy about a spring clean. Your house may have no forensic information in it relating to said abduction, and of course you're innocent until proven guilty - but if you know your house is about to be searched and you decide to bleach the sh!t out of all your furniture the day before, that in and of itself becomes a suspicious activity.0 -
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+1hatrickpatrick wrote: »The trouble here is that while innocent until proven guilty of course applies, there are legitimate, probable causes for suspicion about Callinan's shredding of documents, such that the act of shredding them in and of itself makes it reasonable to suspect that they may have been suspicious.
Bit of a mouthful, but you get the point - if I was suspected of a crime, say abduction, and I suddenly went and had my car crushed in a landfill, the Gardai wouldn't be saying "there might have been nothing in the car and we can't prove otherwise", they'd be saying "the destruction of the car during an investigation into hatrickpatrick's behavior is in and of itself grounds for suspicion that evidence was being destroyed".
You could make a similar analogy about a spring clean. Your house may have no forensic information in it relating to said abduction, and of course you're innocent until proven guilty - but if you know your house is about to be searched and you decide to bleach the sh!t out of all your furniture the day before, that in and of itself becomes a suspicious activity.
What tayto lover is entirely avoiding from my earlier post is the hypocrisy of his statement when I put it to him that if it was an analogous situation with the CEO of Irish Water, (s)he'd be of a completely different opinion.
Say for example there was a question of insider trading with regard to Siteserv and Irish Water's CEO was suddenly shredding "personal documents" after resigning. Yeah bloody right (s)he'd be totally fine with it.0 -
FreudianSlippers wrote: »+1
What tayto lover is entirely avoiding from my earlier post is the hypocrisy of his statement when I put it to him that if it was an analogous situation with the CEO of Irish Water, (s)he'd be of a completely different opinion.
Say for example there was a question of insider trading with regard to Siteserv and Irish Water's CEO was suddenly shredding "personal documents" after resigning. Yeah bloody right (s)he'd be totally fine with it.
Wasn't there a recommendation in the Mahon Tribunal report that no garda documents are to be destroyed?0 -
There was, the judge said these words "“The destruction by a member of any official files after retirement…can never be tolerated…It should be made clear to all gardaí that such documentation is the property of An Garda Síochána. It does not belong to the member concerned,” Judge Morris wrote.0
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There was, the judge said these words "“The destruction by a member of any official files after retirement…can never be tolerated…It should be made clear to all gardaí that such documentation is the property of An Garda Síochána. It does not belong to the member concerned,” Judge Morris wrote.
Well it looks like this didnt drip down to Commissionar Callinan. How was he allowed shred 10 plastic bags and destroy is sim card? Surely when he announced his resignation with immediate effect he shouldn't have been allowed in the building and all access should have been revoked and his phone handed and sim card handed over.
Like a lot of things with this government it stinks. Its high time that we start to grow up in this country and start introducing though laws and regulations for public office holder in relations what they can and cant do and if any public office holder is found guilty of breaking the laws then they go to Jail. No more ineffective tribunals, no more brazing it out for a few days, a proper trial and jail.0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »The trouble here is that while innocent until proven guilty of course applies, there are legitimate, probable causes for suspicion about Callinan's shredding of documents, such that the act of shredding them in and of itself makes it reasonable to suspect that they may have been suspicious.
Bit of a mouthful, but you get the point - if I was suspected of a crime, say abduction, and I suddenly went and had my car crushed in a landfill, the Gardai wouldn't be saying "there might have been nothing in the car and we can't prove otherwise", they'd be saying "the destruction of the car during an investigation into hatrickpatrick's behavior is in and of itself grounds for suspicion that evidence was being destroyed".
You could make a similar analogy about a spring clean. Your house may have no forensic information in it relating to said abduction, and of course you're innocent until proven guilty - but if you know your house is about to be searched and you decide to bleach the sh!t out of all your furniture the day before, that in and of itself becomes a suspicious activity.
But he wasn't suspected of a crime when he left !!! He was clearing his office and leaving it ready for his successor to all intents and purposes. He also didn't know "his house" or office was "going to be searched" at the time he cleared it out. i don't even think it was ever searched anyway afterwards.
Where is his crime suspected at that time?
Shredding is done in very many walks of life including where I work so that argument goes out the window. I shredded old files today myself.0 -
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FreudianSlippers wrote: »+1
What tayto lover is entirely avoiding from my earlier post is the hypocrisy of his statement when I put it to him that if it was an analogous situation with the CEO of Irish Water, (s)he'd be of a completely different opinion.
Say for example there was a question of insider trading with regard to Siteserv and Irish Water's CEO was suddenly shredding "personal documents" after resigning. Yeah bloody right (s)he'd be totally fine with it.
That is not what happened though. Stupid analogy.
At the time he left we have no evidence that he was personally suspected of any crime. He have been told that he actually reported the phone tapping himself as soon as he found out about it and told the attorney general himself.
Where is the evidence of HIS crime in all this?
You're adding one and one and getting three.0 -
There was, the judge said these words "“The destruction by a member of any official files after retirement…can never be tolerated…It should be made clear to all gardaí that such documentation is the property of An Garda Síochána. It does not belong to the member concerned,” Judge Morris wrote.
Didn't know that. Have you a link to this as this might change my view on the whole affair? Does it include personal papers, books, calendars, photographs etc?0 -
Look, as someone who actually left a civil service job and has some experience of leaving an office, I am just going to throw in my few shillings.
From my emails, I deleted any personal emails (friends, family, spouse) that were of no relevance to my job. I also deleted routine emails that would have been sent to everyone in the office (promotion opportunity, Joe's mother died) etc. That meant I had tidied up my email account to such an extent that for anyone looking at it, they could quickly see what was official.
From the papers I had on my desk, I took a similar approach. Payslips that I didn't need, personal correspondence including the odd christmas card etc. I sent for shredding. Copies of reports and documents, the originals of which were on files I also sent for shredding. Printed copies of emails available on the system I also sent for shredding.
All of that accounted for around 90% of the material on my desk as most of it had been filed in paper files and I just had duplicates and the rest was printed copies of electronic files. That 10% of other material I got someone to file.
I wouldn't have had as much paper as a Garda Commissioner (and was in a very different job) but it is quite possible that the stuff that was sent for shredding by him fell into the same categories.0 -
Look, as someone who actually left a civil service job and has some experience of leaving an office, I am just going to throw in my few shillings.
From my emails, I deleted any personal emails (friends, family, spouse) that were of no relevance to my job. I also deleted routine emails that would have been sent to everyone in the office (promotion opportunity, Joe's mother died) etc. That meant I had tidied up my email account to such an extent that for anyone looking at it, they could quickly see what was official.
From the papers I had on my desk, I took a similar approach. Payslips that I didn't need, personal correspondence including the odd christmas card etc. I sent for shredding. Copies of reports and documents, the originals of which were on files I also sent for shredding. Printed copies of emails available on the system I also sent for shredding.
All of that accounted for around 90% of the material on my desk as most of it had been filed in paper files and I just had duplicates and the rest was printed copies of electronic files. That 10% of other material I got someone to file.
I wouldn't have had as much paper as a Garda Commissioner (and was in a very different job) but it is quite possible that the stuff that was sent for shredding by him fell into the same categories.
That was my exact point Godge. Cheers.0 -
tayto lover wrote: »That was my exact point Godge. Cheers.
I think the difference is people don't find it credible that Callinan had 10 rubbish bags of christmas cards and old scratch cards to dispose of from his desk. Nor do I think the sim card of his "work" phone was full of "Where r U?" texts to his wife.
They may have referenced Gemma O'Doherty, but I guess we'll never know now.
On the other hand, specific direction was given on the back of a previous inquiry that no Garda should take his retirement as an opportunity to shred files:“The destruction by a member of any official files after retirement…can never be tolerated…It should be made clear to all gardaí that such documentation is the property of An Garda Síochána. It does not belong to the member concerned,” Judge Morris wrote.’
Its a damning, but totally predictable failure of Irish governance that not only was this instruction not acknowledged and accepted by the Guards that Callinan himself breached it. Callinans first act on retiring, in a cloud of controversy, was to head into Garda HQ to destroy 10 sacks of files and then to destroy the sim card of his workphone. Honest mistake right?
Neither is it shocking that despite multiple figures criticising the lack of any notes being taken on the night of the bank guarantee back in 2008 it still appears to be the case that the civil service and the Irish government hold meetings on serious issues without minutes and notes. All the better to deny accountability. Honest mistake right?
At what point does the wilful ignorance of good practise stop being honest mistakes and start becoming malicious?0 -
tayto lover wrote: »Didn't know that. Have you a link to this as this might change my view on the whole affair? Does it include personal papers, books, calendars, photographs etc?
Haven't got a direct link to the quote but its in the Morris report, the Sunday Times wrote an article on it last Sunday (behind a paywall but linked via Broadsheet a couple of pages back on this thread)
I think Freudian and others are right on this one. Plenty of companies have sued sales employees for taking confidential information gathered during their employment off the premises. I'm familiar with lots of companies who take ownership of their employees LinkedIn accounts- any business contacts they make are the intellectual property of the company and must be surrendered upon their departure.
In this instance we have a Commissioner shredding 10 bags of papers and his Sim card before his departure.. He left under a cloud of controversy during which he himself was under investigation for his role in the Kieran Boylan affair. Gemma Docherty was also sacked at this time by Stephen Rae, the former editor of the Gardai Review magazine. Was she sacked at the behest of Callinan because she had the temerity to expose how he was caught speeding and abusing the penalty point system? We will never know because he scrapped his Sim card from this period.
All of this is set against the background Judge Morris' report stating that retiring Gardai shouldn't shred papers. Callinan as Commissioner would have been fully aware of the Morris report as it related directly to 'his' force. Yet he decided to ignore the judge and shred them anyway. The whole thing smacks of the behaviour of someone who needs to cover their tracks.0 -
Haven't got a direct link to the quote but its in the Morris report, the Sunday Times wrote an article on it last Sunday (behind a paywall but linked via Broadsheet a couple of pages back on this thread)
I think Freudian and others are right on this one. Plenty of companies have sued sales employees for taking confidential information gathered during their employment off the premises. I'm familiar with lots of companies who take ownership of their employees LinkedIn accounts- any business contacts they make are the intellectual property of the company and must be surrendered upon their departure.
In this instance we have a Commissioner shredding 10 bags of papers and his Sim card before his departure.. He left under a cloud of controversy during which he himself was under investigation for his role in the Kieran Boylan affair. Gemma Docherty was also sacked at this time by Stephen Rae, the former editor of the Gardai Review magazine. Was she sacked at the behest of Callinan because she had the temerity to expose how he was caught speeding and abusing the penalty point system? We will never know because he scrapped his Sim card from this period.
All of this is set against the background Judge Morris' report stating that retiring Gardai shouldn't shred papers. Callinan as Commissioner would have been fully aware of the Morris report as it related directly to 'his' force. Yet he decided to ignore the judge and shred them anyway. The whole thing smacks of the behaviour of someone who needs to cover their tracks.
Dont Telecom companies keep all data records for a period of time including texting data, numbers and times? Maybe not going back as far as the Gemma Doherty incident but recently anyway.0 -
I think the difference is people don't find it credible that Callinan had 10 rubbish bags of christmas cards and old scratch cards to dispose of from his desk. Nor do I think the sim card of his "work" phone was full of "Where r U?" texts to his wife.
They may have referenced Gemma O'Doherty, but I guess we'll never know now.
On the other hand, specific direction was given on the back of a previous inquiry that no Garda should take his retirement as an opportunity to shred files:
Its a damning, but totally predictable failure of Irish governance that not only was this instruction not acknowledged and accepted by the Guards that Callinan himself breached it. Callinans first act on retiring, in a cloud of controversy, was to head into Garda HQ to destroy 10 sacks of files and then to destroy the sim card of his workphone. Honest mistake right?
Neither is it shocking that despite multiple figures criticising the lack of any notes being taken on the night of the bank guarantee back in 2008 it still appears to be the case that the civil service and the Irish government hold meetings on serious issues without minutes and notes. All the better to deny accountability. Honest mistake right?
At what point does the wilful ignorance of good practise stop being honest mistakes and start becoming malicious?
As I pointed out in my own post, there is no evidence that he shredded official files, there is only speculation.0 -
The data retention act provides for all metadata about calls, emails and texts including the location of your phone to be kept for 2 years in case the Gardai, Revenue, Social Welfare or Army might want to look at your past activities. But, to get this information, the Gardai etc have to declare that they are investigating a serious criminal offence. That's not the case here. This the act may have to be repealed as it conflicts with EU law on privacy.Dont Telecom companies keep all data records for a period of time including texting data, numbers and times? Maybe not going back as far as the Gemma Doherty incident but recently anyway.
If the SIM card had fallen into the hands of Garda management, it could have been examined and text messages retrieved, assuming the phone had stored them on the card. No warrant or statutory justification would have been needed.0 -
Looks like the former commissioner got a nice pension on retirement
€262,000!!!!!0 -
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The data retention act provides for all metadata about calls, emails and texts including the location of your phone to be kept for 2 years in case the Gardai, Revenue, Social Welfare or Army might want to look at your past activities. But, to get this information, the Gardai etc have to declare that they are investigating a serious criminal offence.
Or they have to be spying on an ex-boyfriend!
The garda involved in this case faced neither prosecution nor any serious disciplinary sanction. In a comparable case in the UK, an officer with the Met who accessed her estranged husband's phone records, out of concern for his safety because of his health issues, was dismissed from the force and prosecuted.0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »Looks like the former commissioner got a nice pension on retirement
€262,000!!!!!
That should buy his silence0 -
PS pensions are usually 1/2 of the salary with a once-off gratuity of 1.5 of salary.nice_guy80 wrote: »Looks like the former commissioner got a nice pension on retirement
€262,000!!!!!
So, I'd say the pension was less than that and the 262k might have been the once-off lump sum gratuity?0 -
More Kenny/FG-style "democracy" in action today...The Government will today table a motion of confidence in itself in the Dáil, after criticism over the events outlined in the Fennelly Report.
Fianna Fáil had hoped to use the return to table a motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach Enda Kenny.
However, last night the Government abruptly changed its agenda for the day - and now plans to debate a motion of confidence in itself.
It means the Fianna Fáil motion gets dropped - and Opposition parties cannot table another one within the lifetime of this Government
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-to-table-motion-of-confidence-in-itself-697045.html?
Once again, the current Government is abusing its position to dilute our democratic process - such as it is - and the rights of our elected representatives to be heard.0 -
Any leader facing a motion of no confidence and doesn't do what Enda has just done should not be Taoiseach.More Kenny/FG-style "democracy" in action today...
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-to-table-motion-of-confidence-in-itself-697045.html?
Once again, the current Government is abusing its position to dilute our democratic process - such as it is - and the rights of our elected representatives to be heard.0 -
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robbiezero wrote: »Stupid question I know, but just as a matter of interest, why?
Not a stupid question.
Would you rather have a taoiseach that would walk into a troublesome situation with full knowledge and not do anything about it?
Enda is not our first taoiseach to have pulled this stunt.
Anyhow the whole thing is political showboating on both sides. It's time wasting at a time when we have more important things to discuss in the house.0 -
FreudianSlippers wrote: »I'm not fan of FG or particularly EK, but that's shrewd politicking of which I wasn't sure he was capable!
Kenny is not doing this himself. It's his advisers surely. He wouldn't think of that by all accounts.0 -
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More Kenny/FG-style "democracy" in action today...
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-to-table-motion-of-confidence-in-itself-697045.html?
Once again, the current Government is abusing its position to dilute our democratic process - such as it is - and the rights of our elected representatives to be heard.
Politicians politicking on both sides, what do you expect?
SF had to finally admit yesterday they couldn't constitutionally table a motion of no-confidence in the AG despite them shouting and roaring about it for weeks.0
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