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Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

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    #2642
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I don't agree with it being for "that position".
    If it had his name then it's for him.

    Tayto, I can't agree. In the job he had an official role. Any documents then were part of that official role. The fact that they were destroyed suggests that they were more than personal. If they were the latter, he would just have taken them home.


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    #2643
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Tayto, I can't agree. In the job he had an official role. Any documents then were part of that official role. The fact that they were destroyed suggests that they were more than personal. If they were the latter, he would just have taken them home.

    I have left loads of jobs and shredded loads of stuff with my name on it before leaving.
    It's all deflecting from the main thing i.e. the sacking by Enda.
    More heads should roll but it's unlikely they will.


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    #2644
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I have left loads of jobs and shredded loads of stuff with my name on it before leaving.
    It's all deflecting from the main thing i.e. the sacking by Enda.
    More heads should roll but it's unlikely they will.

    Callinan was in charge for too many years, IMO. Under his watch, some the things that were allowed , secret recordings, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_phone_recordings_controversy?
    The penalty points fiasco, just to mention two. He had to go, and pushed I guess, by Enda.


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    #2645
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I have left loads of jobs and shredded loads of stuff with my name on it before leaving.
    It's all deflecting from the main thing i.e. the sacking by Enda.
    More heads should roll but it's unlikely they will.
    You weren't the Garda Commissioner. Think of it this way, you're anti-Irish Water - wouldn't you be the first person up in arms of the CEO resigned and shredded all documents he considered to be "personal" received in his capacity as CEO of Irish Water?


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    #2646
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    The way i would see it (and that doesnt mean much until we're all privy to the truth), any documents that were related to policing work would be property of the state and fall under the data protection act.

    Surely destroying them is illegal? If there is a chance (and there most likely is) that any of the destroyed paper work was related to state business (especially cases involving members of the public), then it definitely needs to be investigated.

    I also agree with tayto in that while it is important, whether Callinan was pushed (or not) is a much bigger issue right now.


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    #2647
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    You weren't the Garda Commissioner. Think of it this way, you're anti-Irish Water - wouldn't you be the first person up in arms of the CEO resigned and shredded all documents he considered to be "personal" received in his capacity as CEO of Irish Water?

    No I wouldn't. His property is his property.
    IW should never have been set-up in the first place.


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    #2648
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    The way i would see it (and that doesnt mean much until we're all privy to the truth), any documents that were related to policing work would be property of the state and fall under the data protection act.

    Surely destroying them is illegal? If there is a chance (and there most likely is) that any of the destroyed paper work was related to state business (especially cases involving members of the public), then it definitely needs to be investigated.

    I also agree with tayto in that while it is important, whether Callinan was pushed (or not) is a much bigger issue right now.

    That is the big issue and they are happy not to discuss it.


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    #2649
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No I wouldn't. His property is his property.
    IW should never have been set-up in the first place.
    It's not his property though. It's property of the State.

    Shouldn't have been doesn't mean it wasn't - but you've evaded the question.


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    #2650
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    It's not his property though. It's property of the State.

    Shouldn't have been doesn't mean it wasn't - but you've evaded the question.

    If correspondence arrives to him at his place of work with his name on it then it's his property.
    What question?


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    #2651
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    tayto lover wrote: »
    If correspondence arrives to him at his place of work with his name on it then it's his property.
    What question?


    Not if it relates to work in the Gardaí. A detective doesn't shred his cases before he goes. It's a ridiclous idea.


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    #2652
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Not personal stuff apparently.

    10 bags of "personal stuff"? Was he running his own business from the office?


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    #2653
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Nodin wrote: »
    Not if it relates to work in the Gardaí. A detective doesn't shred his cases before he goes. It's a ridiclous idea.

    Shure nobody knows what was in the bags, even you.
    Everyone is just guessing. I can't see him having anything incriminating in his office. That would be stupid.
    What do you think was in them?


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    #2654
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Shure nobody knows what was in the bags, even you.
    Everyone is just guessing. I can't see him having anything incriminating in his office. That would be stupid.
    What do you think was in them?


    I can't possibly imagine what would constitute 10 bin bags worth of "personal" stuff in the workplace or how it would be there.


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    #2655
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Nodin wrote: »
    I can't possibly imagine what would constitute 10 bin bags worth of "personal" stuff in the workplace or how it would be there.

    So what do you think it was then? Third Secret of Fatima? Plans for the Invasion of England?


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    #2656
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    tayto lover wrote: »
    So what do you think it was then? Third Secret of Fatima? Plans for the Invasion of England?

    or given the amount of time callinan was there, various incriminating documents alluding to garda/state collusion in all sorts of messing.

    I reckon he was saving his own skin from the vultures, which probably inadvertently saved a few other notable hides.


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    #2657
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    tayto lover wrote: »
    So what do you think it was then? Third Secret of Fatima? Plans for the Invasion of England?

    I have no idea.


    (The third secret has already been revealed, btw).


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    #2658
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Nodin wrote: »
    I have no idea.


    (The third secret has already been revealed, btw).

    Maybe his law books which he now has no use for.


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    #2659
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Shure nobody knows what was in the bags, even you.
    Everyone is just guessing. I can't see him having anything incriminating in his office. That would be stupid.
    What do you think was in them?


    Isn't that the whole point?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #2660
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    K-9 wrote: »
    Isn't that the whole point?

    Exactly.


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    #2661
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Exactly.

    So its a circular argument then. We'll never know what was in the documents because well, er, they were destroyed and we've really only one persons word that they were personal, and not incriminating personally or otherwise.

    The only way around that is by, er, not destroying them.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #2662
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    K-9 wrote: »
    So its a circular argument then. We'll never know what was in the documents because well, er, they were destroyed and we've really only one persons word that they were personal, and not incriminating personally or otherwise.

    The only way around that is by, er, not destroying them.

    No. Not really. What if they were harmless and just destroyed because he was clearing out and leaving the place in order for the next commissioner?


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    #2663
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No. Not really. What if they were harmless and just destroyed because he was clearing out and leaving the place in order for the next commissioner?

    We still wouldn't know they were actually harmless, that's the point.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Options
    #2664
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    K-9 wrote: »
    We still wouldn't know they were actually harmless, that's the point.

    AND we don't know if they were otherwise either. We might have to wait for his book now. Would have ruined his sales if we knew.


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    #2665
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    K-9 wrote: »
    We still wouldn't know they were actually harmless, that's the point.

    Who would have determined whether they were harmless or not, his ex work mates?

    And if they had and they'd been shredded we'd be none the wiser.

    Would it have been normal practice to remove 8 bags of "personal" papers on retirement, to one's home either?

    Did the commissioner envisage an enquiry?

    No because he wouldn't have shredded innocent paperwork which now looks bad, yes because he shredded paperwork which now looks bad.


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    #2666
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    tayto lover wrote: »
    AND we don't know if they were otherwise either. We might have to wait for his book now. Would have ruined his sales if we knew.

    So we need a system to address it.

    Blind faith in a Commissioner with suspect attitudes to whistle blowers doesn't really cut it for most people I'd say.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Options
    #2667
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    K-9 wrote: »
    So we need a system to address it.

    Blind faith in a Commissioner with suspect attitudes to whistle blowers doesn't really cut it for most people I'd say.

    Hold on.
    I had no love for Callinan at all. I wanted rid of all of the people involved.
    My point in this shredding lark should be moved to the CT forum as nobody can say what he shredded.
    Now if there had to have been a little hole in one of the bags and a few penalty points fell out it would be different.
    But there wasn't.


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    #2668
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    tayto lover wrote: »
    If correspondence arrives to him at his place of work with his name on it then it's his property.
    No.
    What question?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96877314#post96877314


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    #2669
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No I wouldn't. His property is his property.
    IW should never have been set-up in the first place.

    I answered above.
    His property is his property.


    Do you think Enda shafted him?


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    #2670
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I answered above.
    His property is his property.


    Do you think Enda shafted him?
    Obfuscation at its finest in ignoring the real question there.

    With regard to the "his property is his property" mistake; I presume you're under the impression that work he did of a personal nature at his job is also his property?


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    #2671
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Obfuscation at its finest in ignoring the real question there.

    With regard to the "his property is his property" mistake; I presume you're under the impression that work he did of a personal nature at his job is also his property?


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