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Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

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    #1052
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    mikep wrote: »
    On a lighter note, has anyone else noticed the similarity between Callinan and Rene from Allo allo?? Can't put up a pic at the mo..

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRWptF5POwNx74mlL39EJMwLTLSEKzCDLJQmEcQUR7YobC6gGbyeQ


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    #1053
    fanged_wang
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2 ✭fanged_wang


    tayto lover wrote: »
    If you think Leo came out and made that speech for any other reason than to self-promote then you are a dreamer. These guys don't do a lot for the public good. Self-serving has always and will always come first with a politician.

    that's like saying if someone donates to charity , they only did it to feel pious etc

    im sure varadkar was politically motivated but so what , his actions yielded good , that's the main thing


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    #1054
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    rodento wrote: »
    Is the chairperson of the RSA asking shatter to resign????

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/public-opinion-against-shatter-gay-byrne-1.1737540
    Gaybo wrote:
    they should recognise that the vast majority of people in Ireland feel sorry about Martin Callinan but feel it’s right that he should resign because there’s nowhere else for him to go

    Sorry for Callinan?? Is he having a laugh?
    I only feel sorry for the whistle-blowers whom he tried to crucify


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    #1055
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    fanged_wang wrote: »
    that's like saying if someone donates to charity , they only did it to feel pious etc

    im sure varadkar was politically motivated but so what , his actions yielded good , that's the main thing

    I wonder will enda see it that way?


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    #1056
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,533 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    I wonder will enda see it that way?

    Enda is barely clinging on, he is seen as weak and I am not surprised that there hasnt been another move against him. If you look at his cheif supporters in the last heave each one of them has been a failure and 2 have had motions of no confidence made against them, Shatter, Reilly, Hogan.


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    #1057
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    I don't see this bringing down the government at the moment anyway. Any word from the cabinet meeting yet?


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    #1058
    constance tench
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭constance tench


    donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »
    I don't see this bringing down the government at the moment anyway. Any word from the cabinet meeting yet?

    ...have to wait till 3 PM.


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    #1059
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Well.. they wanted the public interested in politics


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    #1060
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,543 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I've listened to Joe Duffy and the people phoning in comments about the issue and it just struck me that when Martin Callinan made his comments about "the thousands of serving gardai V the two" re noticing wrongdoing on penalty points, he never used the word "alleged" or directly inferred that the revelations and reports made by Sgt McCabe and Mr Wilson were false. fake or untrue, it was merely an implication that could be read from between the lines. In hindsight, it seem's to me that (at least by default) former Commissioner Callinan had accepted the truth of what the two had reported internally within AGS and then to the PAC. I have assumed he knew in advance of the Garda Inspectorate report's contents due to be made public which made clear the abuse of the points system. It would have made a lie of any direct denial of wrongdoing by him within AGS on the abuse.

    Ta to Gizmo55 for this: Indeed. Once again, this is what Callinan said at the PAC:

    “I do respect the notion that gardaí, in certain circumstances, should not be investigating one another. That is why we have the ombudsman commission to deal with those cases. Clearly, here, however, we have two people, out of a force of over 13,000, who are making extraordinary and serious allegations. There is not a whisper anywhere else or from any other member of the Garda Síochána, however, about this corruption, malpractice and other charges levelled against their fellow officers. Frankly, on a personal level I think it is quite disgusting."

    It's left me wondering if there may be at least two people suing the state (and it's servants) for slander abuse of privilege and denial of promotional opportunities within AGS.


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    #1061
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,533 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    More allegations coming out now. Kenny has asked for a meeting with the leaders of the opposition Martin and Adams.


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    #1062
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Floppybits wrote: »
    More allegations coming out now. Kenny has asked for a meeting with the leaders of the opposition Martin and Adams.

    Are paddy power still taking bets on a general election being held this year?


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    #1063
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,543 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Re floppybits post: It seem's the Govt has been given info to the effect that for years up to 2013, all incoming and outgoing phonecalls were recorded at a large number of Garda stations and it has appointed a member of the judiciary to investigate the reports. The practice was apparently revealed during evidence being given in an ongoing high court case.


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    #1064
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    It is understood the new details include the recording of conversations.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/shocking-new-garda-allegations-outlined-to-cabinet-1.1737610

    Had a feeling that there was more in this. Despite everything, I quite like Shatter, if only for the reason that he's clearly not a politician in the traditional Irish back-slapping, nodding-and-winking, funeral-attending mould.

    But he's at various points alienated the army, the judiciary, the garda rank and file, the lawyers ... Enda will stick by him to the last, there's no doubt of that, he's clearly walking a tightrope here.

    ***
    “In the context of ongoing legal proceedings in a particular case, the Government has learned that a system was in place in a large number of Garda stations whereby incoming and outgoing telephone calls were taped and recorded. The Government was informed of this new information at its meeting today.”
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/inquiry-set-up-into-taping-of-phone-calls-from-garda-stations-1.1737610


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    #1065
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    benway wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/shocking-new-garda-allegations-outlined-to-cabinet-1.1737610

    Had a feeling that there was more in this. Despite everything, I quite like Shatter, if only for the reason that he's clearly not a politician in the traditional Irish back-slapping, nodding-and-winking, funeral-attending mould.

    But he's at various points alienated the army, the judiciary, the garda rank and file, the lawyers ... Enda will stick by him to the last, there's no doubt of that, he's clearly walking a tightrope here.

    ***


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/inquiry-set-up-into-taping-of-phone-calls-from-garda-stations-1.1737610

    does this include the garda confidential line??


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    #1066
    token56
    Registered Users Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭token56


    Surely Shatters position is now untenable given both Callinans "retirement" and these latest revelations?

    I just can't see how an argument can be made for him to be allowed continue in his role as Minster.


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    #1067
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    renegademaster wrote: »
    does this include the garda confidential line??

    into and out of stations so maybe not but very interesting question!


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    #1068
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭jd


    What are the implications of these new revelations? Does it mean that a huge numbers of convictions may now be unsafe?


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    #1069
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Recording ordinary calls from members of the public reporting crimes wouldn't be too bad, but if calls from suspects to solicitors were being recorded, that would be very, very serious.


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    #1070
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Recording ordinary calls from members of the public reporting crimes wouldn't be too bad, but if calls from suspects to solicitors were being recorded, that would be very, very serious.

    except for when that concerned citizen prefers to remain anonymous after garda asks name and phone number


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    #1071
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,543 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    into and out of stations so maybe not but very interesting question!

    Just imagine that there may be a lot of deleting, particularly if any calls included requests for help on points incurred :D


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    #1072
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Recording ordinary calls from members of the public reporting crimes wouldn't be too bad, but if calls from suspects to solicitors were being recorded, that would be very, very serious.

    Appeals
    Appeals
    Appeals
    Appeals
    Appeals


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    #1073
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Serious allegations emerging, would shake the foundations of the state if true.

    Puzzles me why this is news to the government - GSOC identified this practice in Waterford City last year in its report on the assault on Anthony Holness while in garda custody:

    GSOC also said the station’s practice of recording all incoming and outgoing calls on a public telephone line was in breach of statues governing such procedures.

    “On consideration of the ruling of the court the Garda Commissioner may wish to re-evaluate his practice regarding the recording of such calls and the consents required if it is to be permissible to use such recordings in evidence,” it said.


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    #1074
    tomdempsey200
    Registered Users Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭tomdempsey200


    mikep wrote: »

    On a lighter note, has anyone else noticed the similarity between Callinan and Rene from Allo allo?? Can't put up a pic at the mo..
    Adolf Hitler too..


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    #1075
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    I've read the Data Protection Act a while back. There were, AFAIR, a number of exceptions in the legitimate interests of the state and pursuit of justice. However, if this was a blanket recording of recording without the consent of the data subjects, this from a rights perspective alone would be a serious matter.


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    #1076
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Puzzles me why this is news to the government - GSOC identified this practice in Waterford City last year in its report on the assault on Anthony Holness while in garda custody:

    GSOC also said the station’s practice of recording all incoming and outgoing calls on a public telephone line was in breach of statues governing such procedures.

    “On consideration of the ruling of the court the Garda Commissioner may wish to re-evaluate his practice regarding the recording of such calls and the consents required if it is to be permissible to use such recordings in evidence,” it said.

    news now cos it suits agendas!!


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    #1077
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,543 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    It'll be interesting a few years from now (when and if) citizens can be called before Oireachtas Committees to answer questions and give evidence, without being able to refuse to appear without the Supreme Court ruling in a citizens favour (case by case).

    Can imagine the scene down in Abbey Street right now "it wasn't just us" LOL


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    #1078
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    immediately Shatter, GSOC bugging and points writeoffs will be forgotten about.
    That is why the government is releasing this now


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    #1079
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    immediately Shatter, GSOC bugging and points writeoffs will be forgotten about.
    That is why the government is releasing this now
    You could be right, but I don't see how it gets Shatter off the hook - it was happening on his watch.


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    #1080
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    immediately Shatter, GSOC bugging and points writeoffs will be forgotten about.
    That is why the government is releasing this now

    Shatter is in this up to his neck so I doubt it will go away too easily for him.
    He cut Callinan loose so now it's going to be the Govt. vs AGS with the Govt. trying to sell themselves as a party of reform all over again.


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    #1081
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    jd wrote: »
    What are the implications of these new revelations? Does it mean that a huge numbers of convictions may now be unsafe?
    If it's the case that solicitor/client telephone consultations were recorded, it's possible.

    Would arguably have to be addressed on a case-by-case basis - if, as I suspect, most of these conversations simply consist of the solicitor advising the client of his/her right to silence and recommending that he/she exercise it, it's hard to see where the prejudice is. That's if the recordings were even listened to by the investigating Gardaí.

    But it's not hard to imagine that there may well be cases where admissions made while in Garda custody might be deemed to be inadmissible as being illegally/unconstitutionally obtained *if* it can be shown that the consultation was listened to by the investigating Gardaí and it informed or coloured their interrogation.

    This won't have any bearing on any other evidence, though, and having said all that, I'd imagine the number of cases where this might ground a viable appeal will be vanishingly small.


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