Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

tayto lover

murphaph wrote: »

Give it a rest. AGS are I'm afraid to say an average police force at best and in many instances sadly amateur. I've had limited contact with the guards over my lifetime but each time they managed to be a disappointment. Some good characters in there for sure but overall a big "could do (much) better".

I met a few recently and they told me that the morale in the job is at a very low ebb. Having their shift conditions changed along with the pay cuts have made many of them think of packing it all in. Some of them don't see their kids for days because of the shift changes and struggle to pay bills.
In my opinion this along with the scandals would make a good worker reluctant to involve himself deeply in his work.
As the saying goes "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys".
I am of the opinion that the pay and conditions in the garda is not attracting the caliber of officer it used to have.

token56

fr3d12 wrote: »

Shatter is in this up to his neck so I doubt it will go away too easily for him.
He cut Callinan loose so now it's going to be the Govt. vs AGS with the Govt. trying to sell themselves as a party of reform all over again.

I really think Callinan was the driving force behind "retiring" once he knew today's revelations were coming.

gizmo555

tayto lover wrote: »

II am of the opinion that the pay and conditions in the garda is not attracting the caliber of officer it used to have.

norrie rugger

gizmo555 wrote: »

You could be right, but I don't see how it gets Shatter off the hook - it was happening on his watch.

It was stopped on his watch, it was happening before he came in (reform:rolleyes:)

Call me Al

gizmo555 wrote: »

Puzzles me why this is news to the government - GSOC identified this practice in Waterford City last year in its report on the assault on Anthony Holness while in garda custody:

GSOC also said the station’s practice of recording all incoming and outgoing calls on a public telephone line was in breach of statues governing such procedures.

“On consideration of the ruling of the court the Garda Commissioner may wish to re-evaluate his practice regarding the recording of such calls and the consents required if it is to be permissible to use such recordings in evidence,” it said.

Exactly.
It's not sudden and earth-shattering news to them, in contrast to the dramatic manner in which it has been released via the media.
I think it's a distinct case of trying to distract from the retirement of Callinan and take some of the focus from Shatter.

fr3d12

token56 wrote: »

I really think Callinan was the driving force behind "retiring" once he knew today's revelations were coming.

I know he ultimately made the decision himself but Shatter had been slowly pulling away from him for weeks.

holyhead

Smacks of the situation being stage managed. Released this revelation. Detract from Callinan's resignation and take the heat of Shatter. Can't see it working though.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Anyway, back on topic, I think its fairly clear at this stage that shatter and callinan are not going to go easy!

I think shatter will eventually force callinan to retire, behind the scenes, to save himself.

as predicted two weeks ago.

shatter will hang on by his fingernails.

this phonecalls being recorded story is just a smokescreen to allow shatter to stay where he is.

K-9

benway wrote: »

If it's the case that solicitor/client telephone consultations were recorded, it's possible.

Would arguably have to be addressed on a case-by-case basis - if, as I suspect, most of these conversations simply consist of the solicitor advising the client of his/her right to silence and recommending that he/she exercise it, it's hard to see where the prejudice is. That's if the recordings were even listened to by the investigating Gardaí.

But it's not hard to imagine that there may well be cases where admissions made while in Garda custody might be deemed to be inadmissible as being illegally/unconstitutionally obtained *if* it can be shown that the consultation was listened to by the investigating Gardaí and it informed or coloured their interrogation.

This won't have any bearing on any other evidence, though, and having said all that, I'd imagine the number of cases where this might ground a viable appeal will be vanishingly small.

The burden of proof will be on the Guards though and manys the solicitor up and down the country is going to be onto this.

It does seem odd that it is coming out now as some huge revelation if it was going on for years and was commented on last year by GSOC.

gizmo555

K-9 wrote: »

It does seem odd that it is coming out now as some huge revelation if it was going on for years and was commented on last year by GSOC.

The very 1st sentence of the government statement says:

"At its meeting today, the Government considered a new and very serious issue relating to An Garda Síochána."

Unless this is something that goes significantly beyond what GSOC already reported on, you'd have to say it's a diversion.

take everything

Clown friend of Callinan calling it a sad day.
Annoyed with Shatter.

Still saying the whistleblowers let the country down. Unbelievable.

He's deluded.

Shady Tady

A total smoke screen, they are buying time and wasting more taxpayers money, shatter has managed to demoralise an entire force in his time as minister, he would not survive as CEO in any company. There's an election coming inside the next two months

donkey_breath

tayto lover wrote: »

I met a few recently and they told me that the morale in the job is at a very low ebb. Having their shift conditions changed along with the pay cuts have made many of them think of packing it all in. Some of them don't see their kids for days because of the shift changes and struggle to pay bills.
In my opinion this along with the scandals would make a good worker reluctant to involve himself deeply in his work.
As the saying goes "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys".
I am of the opinion that the pay and conditions in the garda is not attracting the caliber of officer it used to have.

" low morale " is union code for WE WANT MORE MONEY

the police in Ireland are extremely well paid

donkey_breath

take everything wrote: »

Clown friend of Callinan calling it a sad day.
Annoyed with Shatter.

Still saying the whistleblowers let the country down. Unbelievable.

He's deluded.

not deluded , just grotesquely arrogant , these people think they are above the law

tayto lover

How come this "new" information about phone calls being taped since the 1980's didn't come to light during the Smithwicks Tribunal?

Total smokescreen to save Shatter.

donkey_breath

tayto lover wrote: »

How come this "new" information about phone calls being taped since the 1980's didn't come to light during the Smithwicks Tribunal?

Total smokescreen to save Shatter.

your the king of guy who points to a mouse in the living room when theirs an elephant taking a crap in the corner

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Jesus christ this is like watching a car crash. Do they think we are total children? That we won't notice this blatant attempt to deflect attention from shatter? Until relatively recently I was actually quite satisfied with the current government but the longer this goes on the more obvious it becomes that these people hold us in total contempt. I am genuinely angered by this.

tayto lover

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Jesus christ this is like watching a car crash. Do they think we are total children? That we won't notice this blatant attempt to deflect attention from shatter? Until relatively recently I was actually quite satisfied with the current government but the longer this goes on the more obvious it becomes that these people hold us in total contempt. I am genuinely angered by this.

You're not supposed to think like that.
Come in tomorrow for re-programming.

fr3d12

It's no coincidence these "new" allegation came to light only hours after Callinan stood down.
The Attorney General was aware last November about the recordings but according to the Taoiseach he was only informed by the AG on Sunday night!

Shady Tady

fr3d12 wrote: »

It's no coincidence these "new" allegation came to light only hours after Callinan stood down.
The Attorney General was aware last November about the recordings but according to the Taoiseach he was only informed by the AG on Sunday night!

I suppose today just happened to be the day they were due to come out, Putin would have a red face on him announcing this!

fr3d12

Shady Tady wrote: »

I suppose today just happened to be the day they were due to come out, Putin would have a red face on him announcing this!

It's hard not to be cynical at this stage, you can bet the words "Shatter" "AGS", "Justice system" and "Reform" will be used together a lot in the coming days.

Shady Tady

fr3d12 wrote: »

It's hard not to be cynical at this stage, you can bet the words "Shatter" "AGS", "Justice system" and "Reform" will be used together a lot in the coming days.

""Resign" would be another word

mick_savage

the rot in our police force long preceeds the current minister for justice , I think shatter should go but the major issue here is not him , its the culture within AGS

if shatter were not such an unlikeable personality , I suspect most would realise this

tayto lover

This taping of phone calls was used to convict garda in Waterford over an assault. Who authorised that and was it used to spy on the garda officers or persons arrested?

fr3d12

mick_savage wrote: »

the rot in our police force long preceeds the current minister for justice , I think shatter should go but the major issue here is not him , its the culture within AGS

if shatter were not such an unlikeable personality , I suspect most would realise this

AGS and the Commissioner answer to the Dept. of Justice so the buck stops with whoever the Minister of Justice is.
The AG has been aware of recordings for six months and you can bet Shatter was aware of them also, now he wants to be seen as the saviour of the integrity of AGS with reform, I hope the allegations turn out to be exaggerated by the Govt. because it's the last thing the country needs but until more is known who knows what's involved.
This has been held as some sort of get out of jail card for Shatter all along.
His statement Thursday will probably largely deal with the new commission of inquiry being set up.

brooke 2

gizmo555 wrote: »

Puzzles me why this is news to the government - GSOC identified this practice in Waterford City last year in its report on the assault on Anthony Holness while in garda custody:

GSOC also said the station’s practice of recording all incoming and outgoing calls on a public telephone line was in breach of statues governing such procedures.

“On consideration of the ruling of the court the Garda Commissioner may wish to re-evaluate his practice regarding the recording of such calls and the consents required if it is to be permissible to use such recordings in evidence,” it said.

It also puzzles me why it would be news to Billy Hawkes as he said today.

tayto lover

Again my point regarding the Smithwicks Tribunal stands.

Was the fact that several/many garda stations had their phones tapped made known to Smithwicks in light of the AG and Govt knowing about this?
No mention of that in the Tribunal which only ended recently at all.

Who authorised the practice and for what reason?
The garda workers in these stations didn't seem to know that their phnoes were tapped either according to the News.

holyhead

Unless something of substance emerges looking like Kenny is standing by Shatter. Enda your justice minister INCORRECTLY stated that a whistleblower wouldn't appear before an inquiry. Such a statement reflects poorly on the whistleblower IF true. It was FALSE. Enda he was never asked. Shatter incorrectly and hence wrongly smeared the character of a whistleblower. He, Shatter allowed a Police Commissioner to remain in office after calling the actions of whistleblowers DISGUSTING.
You Enda criticized FF for there lack of morals. Your no better yourself. Shame on you. Fire Shatter and reclaim some of the moral ground or go into a cesspit with him. Damn you Enda your a disgrace Taoiseach or otherwise.

Callinan retires with his fat pension and pay off. Really pees me off this whole gravy train. Shatter, spineless, should have had the balls to fire him. Shatter too will get his fat pension when he buggers off. Hopefully sooner than later. Bob Geldof was right. Banana Republic.

Mr.Micro

tayto lover wrote: »

This taping of phone calls was used to convict garda in Waterford over an assault. Who authorised that and was it used to spy on the garda officers or persons arrested?

The mind boggles as to the implications of the recordings. What else have they been doing at the Garda stations? Shatter was prepared to gloss over the whole whistleblower, penalty points debacles. He should go immediately.

tayto lover

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The mind boggles as to the implications of the recordings. What else have they been doing at the Garda stations? Shatter was prepared to gloss over the whole whistleblower, penalty points debacles. He should go immediately.

The Govt have a high priority in making sure that they have the backing of the garda and army and that any dissenters are removed. That's why they are not allowed have a union too. The Govt appoint the Commissioner and he keeps the garda members in check.
This practice has to stop now.