The European club rugby debacle continues part IV: the quest for peace

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A competitive 3rd tier competition that allows those teams to compete with each other rather than losing 70-0 every week. A prize of Amlin rugby to the qualifiers. The benefits of that are self evident.

There is already assistance to the 3rd tier through the IRB via FIRA.

Please explain further.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Please explain further.

You have teams pulling out of the Amlin at the moment already because they can't afford it and have no interest in stretching themselves financially so they can be well beaten regularly. I think we can all agree that these teams playing European rugby is preferable to them not playing any. So a cheaper competition between teams of comparable levels (hopefully) is pretty clearly advantageous.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You have teams pulling out of the Amlin at the moment already because they can't afford it and have no interest in stretching themselves financially so they can be well beaten regularly. I think we can all agree that these teams playing European rugby is preferable to them not playing any. So a cheaper competition between teams of comparable levels (hopefully) is pretty clearly advantageous.

What makes it cheaper? Almost all costs are fixed costs no? Cost of travel and accomodation.

You also get at least 'some' increase in gate receipts when a "powerhouse" comes to town.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes it cheaper? Almost all costs are fixed costs no? Cost of travel and accomodation.

You also get at least 'some' increase in gate receipts when a "powerhouse" comes to town.

Eh... I'm pretty sure you haven't actually considered that maybe there's been a little bit of thought put into a different structure for the 3rd tier competition really... How exactly do you think the competition is proposed to be run?

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Eh... I'm pretty sure you haven't actually considered that maybe there's been a little bit of thought put into a different structure for the 3rd tier competition really... How exactly do you think the competition is proposed to be run?

I've asked you this exact question before and you said you'd lost the link.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The biggest amount of funding would come from the participants.

So why isn't there already a 3rd tier competition? If they pay for it themselves and there is a market for it then surely it would already exist no?

And who would make up this 3rd tier? Would you be looking at English Championship sides and/or the French D2 sides? Or are we looking solely at the likes of the Viadannas and Dinamo București?

Remember the breakdown at the moment is (with 2 Amlin sides going up to the HEC each season obviously):

League|HEC|Amlin
AP|6|6
T14|6|8
Pro12|10|2
Super 10|0|4
SuperLiga|0|1
Spain/Portugal|0|1

In the new set up (for ease let's assume the French get the extra team):

League|HEC|Amlin
AP|6|6
T14|7|7
Pro12|7|5

That leaves 2 places open in the Amlin (unless it's reduced to 18?) with another 4 sides going down into the 3rd tier competition. That means we need another 12-16 (10-14 maybe?) teams to form this new competition. Who will they be? How will they be selected? Is there a market there to make it viable?

You've said consistently that the "benefits are obvious" but there are costs to this. The sides that make up this competition will likely be amateur sides (unless they come from England or France). You have never given any detail about how this would work, or provided any "evidence" of said benefits. Not that I'm asking for any, I'm just being facetious. You're happy to accept this 3rd tier competition as being a good thing, but don't appear to have given it huge thought.

As I see it the only way it can realistically happen is I it is in some way financially backed up by the top 2 tiers. But the English and French don't want to do that for Scotland or Italy any more despite them being fairly dependent on it for their survival. What chances are there that they'd be willing to do it for Romanian or Portugese teams?

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You have teams pulling out of the Amlin at the moment already because they can't afford it and have no interest in stretching themselves financially so they can be well beaten regularly. I think we can all agree that these teams playing European rugby is preferable to them not playing any. So a cheaper competition between teams of comparable levels (hopefully) is pretty clearly advantageous.

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes it cheaper? Almost all costs are fixed costs no? Cost of travel and accomodation.

You also get at least 'some' increase in gate receipts when a "powerhouse" comes to town.

These were posted while I was writing mine, but emmets point is wholly logical. There are a lot of fixed costs involved in this kind of thing and if some of the more established 3rd tier type teams are struggling financially to afford the Amlin how will teams that don't currently compete at that level manage?

There is also the obvious point that there are fixed costs with running the entirely new competition, such as officiating and admin of the competition. It may be cheaper overall, but that doesn't by definition make it affordable.

thomond2006

I can't see the French ProD2 being keen on it, since they play in a 16 team league with 30 regular season matches. Add in the second place promotion playoffs and that's 32 matches for some sides.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

I've asked you this exact question before and you said you'd lost the link.

I don't remember that at all. I don't have a link. The structure hasn't been agreed, but there are different competitions.

So what is it that you are dismissing? What are the fixed costs?

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't remember that at all. I don't have a link. The structure hasn't been agreed, but there are different competitions.

So what is it that you are dismissing? What are the fixed costs?

I'm dismissing the idea that removing them from the Amlin is somehow "good" for them.

The fixed costs are transport, accommodation etc unless you're to have them play over the internet? And the fact that those games are against other teams at 'their level' as opposed to above it does not change those costs one bit.

Please detail a third tier tournament that you think would be of benefit.

iDave

A positive meeting took place today in London between the IRFU, SRU, WRU and FIR to discuss future Italian participation in the PRO12.
The meeting was very constructive with progress made by all parties

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/14188.php#.UvzTEqNFCUk

CatFromHue

The statements are getting so short we can now quote them in full on here :P

---

A positive meeting took place today in London between the IRFU, SRU, WRU and FIR to discuss future Italian participation in the PRO12.
The meeting was very constructive with progress made by all parties.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/14188.php#.UvzTGPl_tgg

---

There is no more time for blue sky thinking or delaying decision making anymore, this has to be finalised in the next week, 2 at the very most.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

The statements are getting so short we can now quote them in full on here :P

---

A positive meeting took place today in London between the IRFU, SRU, WRU and FIR to discuss future Italian participation in the PRO12.
The meeting was very constructive with progress made by all parties.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/14188.php#.UvzTGPl_tgg

---

There is no more time for blue sky thinking or delaying decision making anymore, this has to be finalised in the next week, 2 at the very most.

Its ST renewal time so yes time is running out.

Phonehead

So removing the Amlin teams and putting them in a third tier makes European Rugby more feasible for them how exactly??? Accomadation, travel, meals, gear etc still remains the same! yet I'm pretty sure they will get less revenue from playing weaker teams (TV money & attendance)

Neil3030

The only difference to weaker teams being put into a third tier competition would be that some of them would get out of their groups and therefore play more games than they would in the Amlin.

So if games prove profitable, either via TV money or gate receipts, then theoretically they could stand to earn more money.

However I seriously doubt that these criteria would be true.

Winters

These proposed format changes are really going to ruin a perfectly good Heineken Cup. I'm all for the meritocracy in qualification and I feel the Pro12 unions should have been more proactive in that but the reduction to 20 teams is going to make the tournament lose some of its magic.

The diluted nations, the lack of variety, only the one second placed runner up qualifying. It didn't need such drastic changes and all the compromises by the Pro12 unions and none by the English and French private owners and unions leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

How are the tournament owners going to go to Sky or BT or whoever and ask for increased revenue next time when there are less matches and less excitement?

The Lost Sheep

Winters wrote: »

These proposed format changes are really going to ruin a perfectly good Heineken Cup. I'm all for the meritocracy in qualification and I feel the Pro12 unions should have been more proactive in that but the reduction to 20 teams is going to make the tournament lose some of its magic.

The diluted nations, the lack of variety, only the one second placed runner up qualifying. It didn't need such drastic changes and all the compromises by the Pro12 unions and none by the English and French private owners and unions leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

How are the tournament owners going to go to Sky or BT or whoever and ask for increased revenue next time when there are less matches and less excitement?

How only one second placed side qualifying? there's an extra runner up qualifying not less. No?
I agree the reduction in teams especially as all the teams being cut from the competition are sides in pro12 will lessen competition but what would you have done?
A smaller top competition with (fingers crossed) a much more competitive stronger second tier competition should help increase revenue

Grandpa Hassan

Winters wrote: »

The diluted nations, the lack of variety, only the one second placed runner up qualifying. It didn't need such drastic changes and all the compromises by the Pro12 unions and none by the English and French private owners and unions leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

How are the tournament owners going to go to Sky or BT or whoever and ask for increased revenue next time when there are less matches and less excitement?

Would it not be 5 teams of 4, with 3 best runners up to qualify? As opposed to 6 of 4, with the 2 best runners up. Its not that much of a difference.

And I would have thought that the number of meaningful games from a broadcasters point of view would be pretty much the same, since I imagine that some of the 'red button' games get pretty low viewing figures anyway

Larbre34

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

And I would have thought that the number of meaningful games from a broadcasters point of view would be pretty much the same, since I imagine that some of the 'red button' games get pretty low viewing figures anyway

I agree with this, the reduction to 20 gets rid of some of the transient AP and T14 sides and increases the likelihood of more feature marquee clashes.

The TV people shouldnt have an issue as they will be able to show more games on the front channel and avoid 'red buttoning' decent fixtures. This is all about quality driving excellence and indeed competition and I would always have liked to see it as an outcome of all this

Winters

It is 3 not 1, stupid maths.

icdg

Red button unfortunately will almost certainly continue to be an element due to the need for match day 6 fixtures to kick off simultaneously in the same group. Unfortunately BT don't employ the red button and prefer online streaming (blocked to Irish customers at the moment unfortunately as Setanta handle ROI subscriber management).

keps

keps wrote: »

It is really frustrating when there is never a 'result' after any of these meetings!

Just optimism about the thrust of the discussions and hope for a resolution:mad:

It's enough to drive you to drink- now there's any idea.

Another meeting today re the Pro 12 from which optimistic sounds emerged!

Do these people just have meeting after meeting to arrange another meeting at which the agenda for the next meeting is set?

Winters

Either ERC are moving or IRB are..

http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=114072

They all want a view of sone Leinstertainment from Simmonscourt House..

bilston

Winters wrote: »

Either ERC are moving or IRB are..

http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=114072

They all want a view of sone Leinstertainment from Simmonscourt House..

Not much Leinstertainment on show these days Winters now that Schmidtty has left.

Zzippy

Tomorrow's Telegraph: Peace over Europe - TV Giants Sky and BT Sport plan historic deal to share coverage of European club rugby

eireannBEAR

Zzippy wrote: »

Tomorrow's Telegraph: Peace over Europe - TV Giants Sky and BT Sport plan historic deal to share coverage of European club rugby

Great does that mean the cup and governance will remain the same?

eireannBEAR

NO...dont answer me then...That's ok....

icdg

Here, presumably is the actual article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/10637587/TV-giants-BT-and-Sky-close-to-historic-deal-to-share-coverage-of-European-club-rugby.html

Though the part about Sky and BT not talking to each other face-to-face doesn't sound encouraging.

Hopefully, if it is to be a new organisation, it would involve the new organisation buying ERC for a nominal sum so that there is minimal disruption to the organisation of the competition and more importantly ERC can trade then on a going concern basis for the rest of the season (and the clubs can get their money).

molloyjh

Multiple subscriptions. YAY!






Not.

CatFromHue

I can't see why Sky or BT would have any reason to talk to each other unless asked to do so by the clubs, even then I'm not sure.

I'd imagine the contracts between ERC and Sky and PRL and BT have opt clauses stated.