Garda Ombudsman "under high-tech surveillance"

timmy4u2

Hootanany wrote: »

Or polls are manipulated :cool:

Dont think there is a need they just need to invent rather than manipulate.
When did you last hear a cute h☆☆r Irishman tell you what way he would vote or had voted.
I still dont know what way my parents voted....so if there are 600 like me in Ireland QED:D

Phoebas

timmy4u2 wrote: »

It just shows that the public have not grasped what is going on.

More like they have other stuff going on.

Irish Voters wrote:

The economy, stupid

timmy4u2

Godge wrote: »

Again, how do we know this is the case? We are once again relying on leaked newspaper stories and people are repeating them as facts and hammering the gardai as a result.



Callinan was appointed by a FF government and came up through the ranks while FF were in government. He will be long retired before FF get back into government.

I think that you just have to go back to the bugging/surviellance episode of the late 70's and see where that came from. Things don't change that much over the years in An Garda Siochana.
I am sure there are posters here that think the Gardai do not "do" surviellance/bugging/phone tapping on a regular basis in the pursuit of criminals and otherwise.

And you can be assured that they read Boards and politics and all papers printed in the Stateon a daily basis.
There is a section specially tasked with this.

And I have no doubt that they collect the ip address of posters.
Time this little Country woke up to this.

Now if anytime soon I am found in a swollen river send my posts to transparency international:cool:

Akrasia

Hootanany wrote: »

Or polls are manipulated :cool:

80% of the people Polled probably don't know what the letters GSOC stand for.

This issue is too complicated for the average voter.

timmy4u2

Akrasia wrote: »

80% of the people Polled probably don't know what the letters GSOC stand for.

This issue is too complicated for the average voter.

In view of the most recent polls could you change that to 22% please, or should it be 29%.

rodento

Last month, Mr Shatter had undertaken to the all-party Oireachtas Committee on Public Service and Oversight to provide a document summarising the different conclusions reached by two security consultants into three possible security compromises at GSOC’s headquarters on Capel Street in Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/committee-writes-to-shatter-berating-his-disappointing-response-to-providing-details-of-gsoc-security-report-1.1727548

Banjo String

Just been discussed on R1, this is by far over for Alan Shatter. On phone atm, but the jist of it being that the opposition are far from happy with various documents he was asked to submit.

He apparently has lots of questions to answer this week.

Hope he enjoyed Mexico.

timmy4u2

Banjo String wrote: »

Just been discussed on R1, this is by far over for Alan Shatter. On phone atm, but the jist of it being that the opposition are far from happy with various documents he was asked to submit.

He apparently has lots of questions to answer this week.

Hope he enjoyed Mexico.

Why do you think he choose Mexico:D

sparkling sea

Public apathy and disinterest shouldn't be confused with public approval. People accepting that they have a choice between a really awful government or a really really awful government is just that, acceptance of reality.

People are disappointed and disillusioned in almost all politicans, not all but almost all.

As far as the Gardai are concerned, public approval in the Gardai has little correlation with the public acceptance that some Gardai are corrupt or/and abuse their power. Public approval remained extremely high all through the revealations of the Morris Tribunal, the public was told that there was nothing different about the Gardai in Donegal and Gardai anywhere else in the country, the majority are fine but there is still a minority who are not.

Corruption, cute whorism and turning a blind are so ingrained in every institution and aspect of Irish life that its the norm, is expected and accepted, some people is try to justify it, thats life in Ireland. We need to insist on more but we don't, so are we all to blame really??

timmy4u2

sparkling sea wrote: »

Public apathy and disinterest shouldn't be confused with public approval. People accepting that they have a choice between a really awful government or a really really awful government is just that, acceptance of reality.

People are disappointed and disillusioned in almost all politicans, not all but almost all.

As far as the Gardai are concerned, public approval in the Gardai has little correlation with the public acceptance that some Gardai are corrupt or/and abuse their power. Public approval remained extremely high all through the revealations of the Morris Tribunal, the public was told that there was nothing different about the Gardai in Donegal and Gardai anywhere else in the country, the majority are fine but there is still a minority who are not.

Corruption, cute whorism and turning a blind are so ingrained in every institution and aspect of Irish life that its the norm, is expected and accepted, some people is try to justify it, thats life in Ireland. We need to insist on more but we don't, so are we all to blame really??

The problem with the Gardai is that it is at the top and they were not taken to task but rather selected a fall guy from down the ranks.
This is clearly seen by Commissioner Callinan's statement that what they did was disgusting and then his attempt to isolate them.

The old British trick, divide and conquer.
And remember this came after his senior officer lackies tried to disipline them on concocted charges. Twice in the case of Sgt McCabe.

That is the disgusting part.

renegademaster

sparkling sea wrote: »

Public apathy and disinterest shouldn't be confused with public approval.

the lack of protest was trotted out as widespread approval of the current government at the recent fine gael ard fheis!!

this and the fact that people are waiting until april 2016 to vote the next corrupt shower in also speaks volumes to fine gael and labour today, grab what ye can for another 2 years and you're out

goon_squad

sparkling sea wrote: »

Public apathy and disinterest shouldn't be confused with public approval. People accepting that they have a choice between a really awful government or a really really awful government is just that, acceptance of reality.

People are disappointed and disillusioned in almost all politicans, not all but almost all.

As far as the Gardai are concerned, public approval in the Gardai has little correlation with the public acceptance that some Gardai are corrupt or/and abuse their power. Public approval remained extremely high all through the revealations of the Morris Tribunal, the public was told that there was nothing different about the Gardai in Donegal and Gardai anywhere else in the country, the majority are fine but there is still a minority who are not.

Corruption, cute whorism and turning a blind are so ingrained in every institution and aspect of Irish life that its the norm, is expected and accepted, some people is try to justify it, thats life in Ireland. We need to insist on more but we don't, so are we all to blame really??

as most people never have any real dealings with AGS , they rely on our media and political class to colour their view of them

the media and political class in Ireland are almost unconditionally pro guard in this country , even during the current penalty points scandal , RTE has every so tentatively reported on the stories which surround it , that story involving mrs lynch from kells was in the main covered on Vincent brownes show in tv 3

endless eulogising of our police force is the default position of opinion makers

goon_squad

timmy4u2 wrote: »

The problem with the Gardai is that it is at the top and they were not taken to task but rather selected a fall guy from down the ranks.
This is clearly seen by Commissioner Callinan's statement that what they did was disgusting and then his attempt to isolate them.

The old British trick, divide and conquer.
And remember this came after his senior officer lackies tried to disipline them on concocted charges. Twice in the case of Sgt McCabe.

That is the disgusting part.

the biggest problem amongst AGS is the loyalty above ethics code , countless ( otherwise decent ) lower ranking cops must turn a blind eye to corruption if they are to either have a peaceful life or climb the ladder career wise

sparkling sea

timmy4u2 wrote: »

The problem with the Gardai is that it is at the top and they were not taken to task but rather selected a fall guy from down the ranks.
This is clearly seen by Commissioner Callinan's statement that what they did was disgusting and then his attempt to isolate them.

The old British trick, divide and conquer.
And remember this came after his senior officer lackies tried to disipline them on concocted charges. Twice in the case of Sgt McCabe.

That is the disgusting part.

I don't know but I think there may be abuse of power at every level in the Gardai. While I agree that there is a top down condoning of this, it also seems that everyone appears powerless in tackling this, I don't why but they do. I would say that the treatment received by McCabe and Wilson might give us some clue as to why abuse of power goes unreported and unchallenged, and the message sent out by the top does appear to be, keep you concerns to yourself or else????

Not so long ago we had the Anthony Holness case in Waterford, 2 gardai where given a 3 and 2 year jail sentences for assult causing harm and trying to pervert the course of justice. A sergeant received a 4 month suspened sentence and a 4th gardai was acquitted.

GSOC stated members of the force did not cooperate with its investigation into the assualt on Anthony Holness and refused to supply information when it was requested.

GSOC was also critical of Waterford Garda Station for illegally recording telephone conversations and called on Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan to immediately review procedures. Anthony Holness was assulted in 2010, nothing seems to have changed. I don't doubt there are cases like this on happening all over the country

Divide et impera or Divide and conquer was a Latin phrase, used by almost every organisation as a tactic (you've lost be on the British thing, its not specfic to Britian at all).

timmy4u2

sparkling sea wrote: »

I don't know but I think there may be abuse of power at every level in the Gardai. While I agree that there is a top down condoning of this, it also seems that everyone appears powerless in tackling this, I don't why but they do. I would say that the treatment received by McCabe and Wilson might give us some clue as to why abuse of power goes unreported and unchallenged, and the message sent out by the top does appear to be, keep you concerns to yourself or else????

Not so long ago we had the Anthony Holness case in Waterford, 2 gardai where given a 3 and 2 year jail sentences for assult causing harm and trying to pervert the course of justice. A sergeant received a 4 month suspened sentence and a 4th gardai was acquitted.

GSOC stated members of the force did not cooperate with its investigation into the assualt on Anthony Holness and refused to supply information when it was requested.

GSOC was also critical of Waterford Garda Station for illegally recording telephone conversations and called on Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan to immediately review procedures. Anthony Holness was assulted in 2010, nothing seems to have changed. I don't doubt there are cases like this on happening all over the country

Divide et impera or Divide and conquer was a Latin phrase, used by almost every organisation as a tactic (you've lost be on the British thing, its not specfic to Britian at all).

Without re dwelling on the rot at the top I will go straight to the waterford issue.
That was not a corruption case. It was a case of excessive force.
Ok the camera was turned away.
The amount of force that was used, im my opinion did not justify the sentences that were handed out.
The guy was uncooperative, resisting arrest, was a person who could have inflicted injury on any one of the Gardai.
All of those Gardai have homes and families to go to. They cannot take chances, they are not cannon fodder.
The Female Garda who got the suspended sentence. What did she do?
She gave him a very mild brush to the back of his head as he would not produce his hands for handcuffing.
These were hands that could have acquired a letel weapon.
What they did was childs play to what you can see every night on the various Cops programmes from the UK, Spain, USA.
Should all of these "Cops" be arrested and imprisoned?
I am not aware of the telephone recording, elaborate please.
All I can say is if the person recording is a party to the conversation it is not illegal

Busted Flat.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Without re dwelling on the rot at the top I will go straight to the waterford issue.
That was not a corruption case. It was a case of excessive force.
Ok the camera was turned away.
The amount of force that was used, im my opinion did not justify the sentences that were handed out.
The guy was uncooperative, resisting arrest, was a person who could have inflicted injury on any one of the Gardai.
All of those Gardai have homes and families to go to. They cannot take chances, they are not cannon fodder.
The Female Garda who got the suspended sentence. What did she do?
She gave him a very mild brush to the back of his head as he would not produce his hands for handcuffing.
These were hands that could have acquired a letel weapon.
What they did was childs play to what you can see every night on the various Cops programmes from the UK, Spain, USA.
Should all of these "Cops" be arrested and imprisoned?
I am not aware of the telephone recording, elaborate please.
All I can say is if the person recording is a party to the conversation it is not illegal

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDkQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.herald.ie%2Fnews%2Fdisgraced-sergeant-had-station-bustup-with-fair-city-actor-27993418.html&ei=IdUqU72TKdKZhQeJqIGQCg&usg=AFQjCNGvWFlruxAh2Nzw5SUDKKPlYW3nzg&bvm=bv.62922401,d.ZG4



During their trial at Waterford Circuit Court during the summer, some of the three gardai who were convicted caused much amusement by turning up for court dressed in biker gear and wearing motorcycle helmets and sunglasses in a bid to hide their identities.

The three were convicted by a jury following a four-week trial at Waterford Circuit Criminal Court last July and August.

Yesterday Judge Leonie Reynolds said the careers of Hickey, Burke and McEnery were "in tatters" at yesterday's sentencing hearing at Waterford Circuit Court.

She said they were "fortunate" that the injuries of the victim, Anthony Holness were not "more serious".

Mr Holness suffers from headaches and psychological problems since his assault by gardai during his arrest in Waterford city on January 29, 2010.

timmy4u2

Busted Flat. wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDkQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.herald.ie%2Fnews%2Fdisgraced-sergeant-had-station-bustup-with-fair-city-actor-27993418.html&ei=IdUqU72TKdKZhQeJqIGQCg&usg=AFQjCNGvWFlruxAh2Nzw5SUDKKPlYW3nzg&bvm=bv.62922401,d.ZG4



During their trial at Waterford Circuit Court during the summer, some of the three gardai who were convicted caused much amusement by turning up for court dressed in biker gear and wearing motorcycle helmets and sunglasses in a bid to hide their identities.

The three were convicted by a jury following a four-week trial at Waterford Circuit Criminal Court last July and August.

Yesterday Judge Leonie Reynolds said the careers of Hickey, Burke and McEnery were "in tatters" at yesterday's sentencing hearing at Waterford Circuit Court.

She said they were "fortunate" that the injuries of the victim, Anthony Holness were not "more serious".

Mr Holness suffers from headaches and psychological problems since his assault by gardai during his arrest in Waterford city on January 29, 2010.

They were very much entitled to prevent the photographers from photographing them.
That may cause amusement to those who wish to be amused by it.
I am not saying they did not use excessive force as the courts have ajudicated on that but I an saying the penalty was disproportionate imo.
And the phone recording?

sparkling sea

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Without re dwelling on the rot at the top I will go straight to the waterford issue.
That was not a corruption case. It was a case of excessive force.
Ok the camera was turned away.
The amount of force that was used, im my opinion did not justify the sentences that were handed out.
The guy was uncooperative, resisting arrest, was a person who could have inflicted injury on any one of the Gardai.
All of those Gardai have homes and families to go to. They cannot take chances, they are not cannon fodder.
The Female Garda who got the suspended sentence. What did she do?
She gave him a very mild brush to the back of his head as he would not produce his hands for handcuffing.
These were hands that could have acquired a letel weapon.
What they did was childs play to what you can see every night on the various Cops programmes from the UK, Spain, USA.
Should all of these "Cops" be arrested and imprisoned?
I am not aware of the telephone recording, elaborate please.
All I can say is if the person recording is a party to the conversation it is not illegal

This has to be a joke !!!

The guy who was assaulted was in and around 40, had never been in any kind of trouble and was unknown to the Garda.
The Garda were tried in a criminal court, all the facts were presented and they were found guilty of assault (an abuse of power) and of trying to "PERVERT THE COURSE OF JUSTICE".

timmy4u2

sparkling sea wrote: »

This has to be a joke !!!

The guy who was assaulted was in and around 40, had never been in any kind of trouble and was unknown to the Garda.
The Garda were tried in a criminal court, all the facts were presented and they were found guilty of assault (an abuse of power) and of trying to "PERVERT THE COURSE OF JUSTICE".

One was convicted of perverting the course of justice.
Why does it have to be a joke?
I have accepted the findings of the court. I do not agree with the sentencing that was handed down ...they should have used more self restrain, yes.they committed an error of judgement.
But remember Gardai by the very nature of their job are led into these situations.
They do not just decide to pounce on a person like most gurriers do. They go in to sort out a developing situation.
If they did not some posters would be chastising them here for not doing their duty.
What would you expect two Gardai to do it four drink or drug laden gurriers were attacking you.
Stand aside because they could not contain them without using force.

gizmo555

timmy4u2 wrote: »

But remember Gardai by the very nature of their job are led into these situations.
They do not just decide to pounce on a person like most gurriers do. They go in to sort out a developing situation.

In what sense was the ex-Garda who was convicted in this case of attempting to pervert the course of justice by deliberately turning CCTV cameras away from the attack by his colleagues on a member of the public "sorting out a developing situation"?

timmy4u2

gizmo555 wrote: »

In what sense was the ex-Garda who was convicted in this case of attempting to pervert the course of justice by deliberately turning CCTV cameras away from the attack by his colleagues on a member of the public "sorting out a developing situation"?

That is a silly childish question, and I assume that you know that, or do you?
You do realise he was not on the street, he was in a communications room.
Though I would assume that he did do his part otherwise by relaying a call for assistance.

gizmo555

timmy4u2 wrote: »

That is a silly childish question, and I assume that you know that, or do you?
You do realise he was not on the street, he was in a communications room

I think it's a perfectly reasonable question myself. He was in a communications room doing his best to conceal the crimes of three of his colleagues who jointly gave one man on his own a hiding for having the temerity to piss in the street.

The same culture appears to be widespread among Waterford Gardaí judging by the scathing criticism levelled at them by GSOC for their obstruction and lack of cooperation with its investigation of this criminal assault by Gardaí.

timmy4u2

gizmo555 wrote: »

I think it's a perfectly reasonable question myself. He was in a communications room doing his best to conceal the crimes of three of his colleagues who jointly gave one man on his own a hiding for having the temerity to piss in the street.

The same culture appears to be widespread among Waterford Gardaí judging by the scathing criticism levelled at them by GSOC for their obstruction and lack of cooperation with its investigation of this criminal assault by Gardaí.

The only other issue that I can see in that link is the recording of phone calls and there is nothing that says it is illegal if you are a party to the conversation.

There refusal to hand over documentation to the GSOC is regrettable and cannot be condoned and believe me I know all about their failures to even hand over documents on foot of discovery orders.
I will always support Gardai who are on the front line. They would never get into trouble if they took the "im not going to get involved attitude because I might get in trouble"

In this incident they went too far and were punished and it is my opinion that the punishment was too severe.
BTW it is not too long ago since the GSOC said some not too nice things about two Gardai in Cork and had them charged with assault.
They became very quiet when the case collapsed in court.

sparkling sea

timmy4u2 wrote: »

One was convicted of perverting the course of justice.
Why does it have to be a joke?
I have accepted the findings of the court. I do not agree with the sentencing that was handed down ...they should have used more self restrain, yes.they committed an error of judgement.
But remember Gardai by the very nature of their job are led into these situations.
They do not just decide to pounce on a person like most gurriers do. They go in to sort out a developing situation.
If they did not some posters would be chastising them here for not doing their duty.
What would you expect two Gardai to do it four drink or drug laden gurriers were attacking you.
Stand aside because they could not contain them without using force.

What your saying is a amounts to a joke because the Court of Appeal reexamined the facts of this case following an appeal by the female garda and the 3 judges stated they could not find her conviction was either unsafe or unsatisfactory.

He rejected the grounds of appeal put forward that the jury should have been directed on whether or not the arrest of Mr Holness was lawful.

Mr Justice Hardiman said the trial judge was correct to leave that for the jury to decide.

He said gardaí were given considerably more powers than members of the public, but the law applied to them exactly as it applied to all other citizens.

It had been submitted that if an arrest was lawful there could not be an assault.

Mr Justice Hardiman said it was not the case that a garda having made an arrest was entitled to use a particular degree of force without lawful excuse.

The trial judge had dealt with admirable fairness to both sides, he said, adding that the jury had dealt with the case with the maximum of discretion.

The Court of Criminal Appeal also rejected the appeal of John Burke.

Mr Justice Hardiman rejected submissions by the appellant that he was subjected to a "double jeopardy" in the trial.

The court also rejected submissions by Mr Burke that the jury had not been properly charged in relation to the reason he gave for the movement of the cameras.

Mr Justice Hardiman said the charge to the jury had been "impeccable" in this regard.

The judge said the case was a "very elaborate" one, which was fought on every conceivable basis and not in a consistent way between the defendants.

In August last year, the three gardaí were convicted for their role in assaulting Mr Holness. A fourth officer, Sgt Alan Kissane, was acquitted.

The incident happened at around 3am on 29 January 2010, when Mr Holness was on his way home from a night out.

He was seen urinating on New Street and resisted arrest.

The trial heard he was bundled to the ground and punched several times in the back of the head.

Sgt McEnery arrived on the scene with Sgt Kissane after responding to a radio call for help.

While Mr Holness lay face down on the ground, Sgt McEnery was alleged to have struck him on the head a number of times with a closed fist.

John Burke was operating the city's CCTV system in the communications room at Waterford garda station at the time, and was accused of twice directing a camera, focused on the scene, away from the incident for a number of seconds.

The trial judge, Leonie Reynolds, described the incident as "obscene acts of criminality" and commented on the "sheer ferocity" of the assault.

These are the facts of the case and they don't mirror in anyway the facts as you presented them.

Who knows how many people were assualted before this guy

gizmo555

timmy4u2 wrote: »

The only other issue that I can see in that link is the recording of phone calls and there is nothing that says it is illegal if you are a party to the conversation.

Maybe you should go back and read it again. Here, let me help:

GSOC again claimed members of the force did not cooperate with its investigation and refused to supply information when it was requested . . .

GSOC said cooperation was exemplary from some officers who were not on trial but in other cases it found support from gardaí “slow and less than optimal”.

“An effect on the investigation was that some documentation sought by GSOC from the Garda Síochána was procured at a very late stage in the investigation, some not received at all,” the report said.

“It is a cause of concern to the Ombudsman Commission that documentation it sought from the Garda Síochána and which was not supplied, was then produced in the course of the trial by the Defence for certain accused.”

GSOC also said the station’s practice of recording all incoming and outgoing calls on a public telephone line was in breach of statutes governing such procedures.

timmy4u2

gizmo555 wrote: »

Maybe you should go back and read it again. Here, let me help:

GSOC again claimed members of the force did not cooperate with its investigation and refused to supply information when it was requested . . .

GSOC said cooperation was exemplary from some officers who were not on trial but in other cases it found support from gardaí “slow and less than optimal”.

“An effect on the investigation was that some documentation sought by GSOC from the Garda Síochána was procured at a very late stage in the investigation, some not received at all,” the report said.

“It is a cause of concern to the Ombudsman Commission that documentation it sought from the Garda Síochána and which was not supplied, was then produced in the course of the trial by the Defence for certain accused.”

GSOC also said the station’s practice of recording all incoming and outgoing calls on a public telephone line was in breach of statutes governing such procedures.

I have stated my opinion, I am staying with my opinion. You can have your opinion.
I have good powers of retention. I do not need these points repeated.
Just because the GSOC said recording is in breach of statute does not mean it is.
Google it

gizmo555

timmy4u2 wrote: »

I have stated my opinion, I am staying with my opinion. You can have your opinion.
I have good powers of retention. I do not need these points repeated.
Just because the GSOC said recording is in breach of statute does not mean it is.
Google it

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
― Daniel Patrick Moynihan

steddyeddy

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0320/603450-garda-whistleblowers/

Leo Varadkar asks the commissioner to withdraw his "disgusting" remarks. People reporting wrongdoing within the gaurds.

mickdw

steddyeddy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0320/603450-garda-whistleblowers/

Leo Varadkar asks the commissioner to withdraw his "disgusting" remarks. People reporting wrongdoing within the gaurds.

Varadkar is hardly acting on his own there.
Is there a change of thinking within government in relation to clowns Callinan and shatter I wonder.

Shady Tady

steddyeddy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0320/603450-garda-whistleblowers/

Leo Varadkar asks the commissioner to withdraw his "disgusting" remarks. People reporting wrongdoing within the gaurds.

Did he ask shatter to apologise?