Garda Ombudsman "under high-tech surveillance"

timmy4u2

tayto lover wrote: »

It appears that each political party when in power promote their own men to high ranking posts.
This should stop at once.
Politicians should be far removed from the running of the police and independent promotion boards should be put in place.
Even the judges are appointed by politicians.
Madness that that is allowed to continue.

The strange thing about Callinan is he was appointed Commissioner by Fianna Fail and Dermot Aherne, Then minister for Justice, in December 2010.
He was due to retire in August 2013 on reaching the maximum age of 60.
Shatter reappointed him and in doing so allowed him preferential treatment in order to serve on until 2015.
So he has a leg in both sides of the Dail.
Michael Martin has been very shy in critising the commissioner, preferring to attack Shatter.

Martin should be very aware of the debacle surrounding John O'Donoghue and his speeding car issues so he cant do too much pointing.
As with the whistleblowers dossier Martins predecessor was also handed a dossier on O'Donoghue and the failure to investigate the matter plus the treatment meeted out at the time.
Cowan stated in the Dail "Mister O'Donoghue will deal with thatvin his own way".
We have not come very far, have we.

Sierra Oscar

BBC News: Dublin bugging scandal: Hi-tech surveillance and intrigue

Interesting to see that the story has made international headlines.

Banjo String

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

BBC News: Dublin bugging scandal: Hi-tech surveillance and intrigue

Interesting to see that the story has made international headlines.

Carefully worded from the BBC, but it basically says GSOC was bugged.

It would be curious for an established specialist company based outside Ireland to go out on a limb and claim that a surveillance operation existed, where in fact it did not.

Curious indeed.

charlie14

timmy4u2 wrote: »

The strange thing about Callinan is he was appointed Commissioner by Fianna Fail and Dermot Aherne, Then minister for Justice, in December 2010.
He was due to retire in August 2013 on reaching the maximum age of 60.
Shatter reappointed him and in doing so allowed him preferential treatment in order to serve on until 2015.
So he has a leg in both sides of the Dail.
Michael Martin has been very shy in critising the commissioner, preferring to attack Shatter.

Martin should be very aware of the debacle surrounding John O'Donoghue and his speeding car issues so he cant do too much pointing.
As with the whistleblowers dossier Martins predecessor was also handed a dossier on O'Donoghue and the failure to investigate the matter plus the treatment meeted out at the time.
Cowan stated in the Dail "Mister O'Donoghue will deal with thatvin his own way".
We have not come very far, have we.

I would be no fan of O`Donoghue, but was it not him that set up the Abbeylara inquiry, after another attempt by the powers that be in AGS wanted it swept under the carpet?

charlie14

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

BBC News: Dublin bugging scandal: Hi-tech surveillance and intrigue

Interesting to see that the story has made international headlines.

I`m shocked!
Hasn`t our beloved Minister for Justice told us there was nothing to this.

Mind you, I can see heads rolling in AGS for this. One journalist that obviously missed the Phoenix park briefing! Shameful.

tayto lover

charlie14 wrote: »

I would be no fan of O`Donoghue, but was it not him that set up the Abbeylara inquiry, after another attempt by the powers that be in AGS wanted it swept under the carpet?

The Abbeylara affair was a very tricky one for the garda unit involved in fairness.

They were poorly trained for dealing with an incident of that nature.
If that poor unstable man had been allowed up the road and shot a few people the garda involved would have been lambasted for that too.
Remember the Michael Ryan incident in Hungerford, England.
As it stood at the time they were in a no win situation.

Things have improved since. Better trained for incidents like that and similar incidents have ended without loss of life thankfully.

tayto lover

charlie14 wrote: »

I`m shocked!
Hasn`t our beloved Minister for Justice told us there was nothing to this.

Mind you, I can see heads rolling in AGS for this. One journalist that obviously missed the Phoenix park briefing! Shameful.

I still can't understand why Callinan came out and stated that no official or un-official bugging took place.
Why didn't he just refuse to comment and say it was under investigation?
Set himself up -- unless there is more to the story than we know as yet.

tomwaterford

tayto lover wrote: »

I still can't understand why Callinan came out and stated that no official or un-official bugging took place.
Why didn't he just refuse to comment and say it was under investigation?
Set himself up -- unless there is more to the story than we know as yet.

he said by the gaurds- which would seem to imply he knows who did the bugging

tayto lover

tomwaterford wrote: »

he said by the gaurds- which would seem to imply he knows who did the bugging

I don't see how you get that out of what he said though. Could you explain your line of thinking please.

tomwaterford

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't see how you get that out of what he said though. Could you explain your line of thinking please.

the only way he could say with 100% certainty the gaurds hadn't done it official or un-official is if he knows who did it
this would seem to imply he knows who did it!!

either that or he is bluffing/lying when he had a chance to come out and say no comment...with the unofficial bugging comment would seem he has tied himself to the comment....I cant see how he can stay if he is openly lying or being lied to by lower ranking gaurds

charlie14

tayto lover wrote: »

The Abbeylara affair was a very tricky one for the garda unit involved in fairness.

They were poorly trained for dealing with an incident of that nature.
If that poor unstable man had been allowed up the road and shot a few people the garda involved would have been lambasted for that too.
Remember the Michael Ryan incident in Hungerford, England.
As it stood at the time they were in a no win situation.

Things have improved since. Better trained for incidents like that and similar incidents have ended without loss of life thankfully.

At the moment there`s a family in Limerick who could be forgiven if they have doubts as to just how much things have changed.

tayto lover

tomwaterford wrote: »

the only way he could say with 100% certainty the gaurds hadn't done it official or un-official is if he knows who did it
this would seem to imply he knows who did it!!

either that or he is bluffing/lying when he had a chance to come out and say no comment...with the unofficial bugging comment would seem he has tied himself to the comment....I cant see how he can stay if he is openly lying or being lied to by lower ranking gaurds

I wonder if we'll ever get to the bottom of it.

tomwaterford

tayto lover wrote: »

I wonder if we'll ever get to the bottom of it.

sad thing is I severly doubt it:mad:

who is most to gain from bugging of GSOC and who is doing the most to bury said story???

surly gaurds have most to gain from clearing themselves

saddest thing is there is viable opposition and therefore no point in trying to force government out-governments have fallen for a lot less than the messing that this one is trying to pull off/get away with

renegademaster

tayto lover wrote: »

I wonder if we'll ever get to the bottom of it.

not without huge public pressure and that hasn't been seen here since nov 2011 and look at all that's come out since then

DublinWriter

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Interesting to see that the story has made international headlines.

Expect the Irish phobia of 'Looking Bad in Front of the Neighbours' to truely kick in.

All stops will now be pulled in an effort to bury the truth get to the bottom of the affair.

DublinWriter

tayto lover wrote: »

The Abbeylara affair was a very tricky one for the garda unit involved in fairness...
Things have improved since. Better trained for incidents like that and similar incidents have ended without loss of life thankfully.

Nope. Re Abbeylara, consider the following timeline:
(a) Man with history of mental health problems fires guns at neighbouring houses from his house
(b) police informed and ERU deployed
(c) After over 48 hours of protracted negotiations, knowing that he is surrounded by crack marksmen, said man comes out of house brandishing a shotgun

Now, I don't know about you, but I can't see a situation in most jurisdictions where John McCarthy would have been allowed to live until scenario (c)

Busted Flat.

tayto lover wrote: »

The Abbeylara affair was a very tricky one for the garda unit involved in fairness.

They were poorly trained for dealing with an incident of that nature.
If that poor unstable man had been allowed up the road and shot a few people the garda involved would have been lambasted for that too.
Remember the Michael Ryan incident in Hungerford, England.
As it stood at the time they were in a no win situation.

Things have improved since. Better trained for incidents like that and similar incidents have ended without loss of life thankfully.

You have not informed yourself about what went on before you posted. Did the FBI train the ERU in such emergency situations. Did the people on the ground over react.

DublinWriter

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Did the FBI train the ERU in such emergency situations.

I hope not, because if they did, they probably would have gone in there with flame-throwing equipped Bradley tanks. Remember Waco, Texas?

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Did the people on the ground over react.

After over 48 hours of a stand-off where a guy with known mental health problems was left in a house with guns and ammo starting firing at neighbouring houses when the rest of his family went to the pub of a Friday night? Nah, I think the sheeple would be bleating about garda incompetence had he actually killed one of his neighbours.

tayto lover

Busted Flat. wrote: »

You have not informed yourself about what went on before you posted. Did the FBI train the ERU in such emergency situations. Did the people on the ground over react.

I don't know about the FBI training but I did read that they would never shoot to wound, only to kill apparently.

cruasder777

Busted Flat. wrote: »

You have not informed yourself about what went on before you posted. Did the FBI train the ERU in such emergency situations. Did the people on the ground over react.

The reality is most Police swat team candidates(and that also includes Ireland) don't undergo psychological assessment before training.

Hence we sometimes have unsuitable people, who when under pressure red mist descents and they make bad decisions.

That has included the FBI, remember Waco ?

cruasder777

DublinWriter wrote: »

Nope. Re Abbeylara, consider the following timeline:
(a) Man with history of mental health problems fires guns at neighbouring houses from his house
(b) police informed and ERU deployed
(c) After over 48 hours of protracted negotiations, knowing that he is surrounded by crack marksmen, said man comes out of house brandishing a shotgun

Now, I don't know about you, but I can't see a situation in most jurisdictions where John McCarthy would have been allowed to live until scenario (c)

Depends on what he was pointing the shotgun at. If it was the Garda, then shooting him after shouting a warning, was justified, if he was pointing it at the sky, then their actions were illegal.






"Despite exonerating the ERU team itself the Tribunal found critical failures by the higher ranking Garda in charge of the siege. The Tribunal found that due to Garda command incompetence, critical information that should have reached the Garda negotiator, Carthy's call to his friend Kevin Ireland, which might have allowed the siege to end more peacefully, was not passed on. The tribunal further found that the scene commander failed to properly plan for an uncontrolled (armed) exit by John Carthy and that some of the instructions given to local and ERU officers were 'vague'. "

timmy4u2

tayto lover wrote: »

The Abbeylara affair was a very tricky one for the garda unit involved in fairness.

They were poorly trained for dealing with an incident of that nature.
If that poor unstable man had been allowed up the road and shot a few people the garda involved would have been lambasted for that too.
Remember the Michael Ryan incident in Hungerford, England.
As it stood at the time they were in a no win situation.

Things have improved since. Better trained for incidents like that and similar incidents have ended without loss of life thankfully.

A bullying type tactic was adopted in Abbeylara. It did not work.
They refused him a cigarette, a small thing but big in the eyes of Carty.

Yes, the Barr tribunal was put in place but only after an Oireachtas Committee was deemed unconstitutional. Incidentally Shatter was a member of that committee.

The ERU and senior Gardai are graduates of the FBI Academy in Quantico including the present Commissioner.
Who did the Gardai bring in to investigate the Abbeylara debacle. Yes, the FBI.
That was a laugh if the circumstances were not so tragic.

Lets not lose track of the hacking incident that ired the FBI not so long ago.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/trinity-student-fbi-claim-is-top-hacker-is-released-by-gardai-26829442.html

http://irishecho.com/2011/02/irish-cops-will-get-training-by-fbi-2/

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/03/07/fbi-garda-blunder-led-to-lulzsec-conference-call-leak/
And lets not forget that previous Commissioner and Quantico graduate Conry stated that intelligence based policing is the way to go.

There is an awful lot more to this than meets the eye.

cruasder777

timmy4u2 wrote: »

A bullying type tactic was adopted in Abbeylara. It did not work.
They refused him a cigarette, a small thing but big in the eyes of Carty.

Yes, the Barr tribunal was put in place but only after an Oireachtas Committee was deemed unconstitutional. Incidentally Shatter was a member of that committee.

The ERU and senior Gardai are graduates of the FBI Academy in Quantico including the present Commissioner.
Who did the Gardai bring in to investigate the Abbeylara debacle. Yes, the FBI.
That was a laugh if the circumstances were not so tragic.

Lets not lose track of the hacking incident that ired the FBI not so long ago.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/trinity-student-fbi-claim-is-top-hacker-is-released-by-gardai-26829442.html

http://irishecho.com/2011/02/irish-cops-will-get-training-by-fbi-2/

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/03/07/fbi-garda-blunder-led-to-lulzsec-conference-call-leak/
And lets not forget that previous Commissioner and Quantico graduate Conry stated that intelligence based policing is the way to go.

There is an awful lot more to this than meets the eye.

The FBIs tactics of wearing people down are now being discredited. They were a disaster at Waco.

If you are dealing with an irrational psychotic/paranoid-control freak, as many of these people are, upping the anti and turning it into a battle of wills makes a fatal outcome more likely. The control freak will just mirror that behavior.

The problem is many Swat Teams have a gung-ho culture, not one of diffusing.Often there is poor communication between the Swat team on the ground and the negotiators,which gives mixed messages creating even more distrust.

Classic example being Waco.

Muahahaha

Incidentally does anyone know what station the Garda whistle blower Maurice McCabe is based at? I know he was at Baileborough in Cavan but got transferred somewhere else. I want to send him a card to show him some support, I'd say he has been through hell and back at this stage

brooke 2

Phoebas wrote: »

What public statements have Rits made?

Ask Paul Williams!

brooke 2

cruasder777 wrote: »

They should not have got involved, makes them look unprofessional. They should have told Shatter it was impossible to do simply from reading a report.

They are offering a definitive counter opinion which they are not qualified to do, and which is impossible to do in this case simply from a report.


Very unprofessional.

Are they contracted to the Department of Justice?

charlie14

brooke 2 wrote: »

Are they contracted to the Department of Justice?

According to Lucinda Creighton, Rits in the last 2 years have recieved government contracts worth nearly 600,000 eur.
Shatter has admitted that he authorized their "peer" report into Verrimus finding without the contract going to tender.

charlie14

This thread may have gone a bit off-track with the Abbeylara Inquiry, but seeing we are in this, in the present situation it might be worth noting Callinans response to the findings of the Smithwicks Inquiry into Garda collusion in the murder of 2 R.U.C. officers.
Contrary to the findings Callinan stated that he will never accept that Garda officers valued loyalty to the force over truth. Callinan was heavily criticized by Justice Smithicks for the attempts by his counsel to undermine the evidence of a retired Garda superintendent, and basically accused Callinan of attempting to protect the reputation of AGS at all cost rather than search for the truth.
A damning indictment for a head of a police force, but a pretty clear indication of how Callinan`s thinking works to any allegations of possible Garda wrongdoing IMO.

mikom

Word on the street is there will be a new whistleblower coming forward next week.

Busted Flat.

mikom wrote: »

Word on the street is there will be a new whistleblower coming forward next week.

Hopefully more than one, and maybe some from the Dept. of Finance and other outfits with secrets. :cool: