organic farming

JohnChadwick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120206381#Comment_120206381

Would you buy a 6 month organic weanling these days for 800 quid?(3euro/kg x 250kg)

Put at least another 250kg on over a year and sell for €1500 (3 x 500kg) at 18 months...

I'd need to make substantial investment if I continue with Sucklers, so this is a more appealing avenue at first glance. I'm always more focused on reducing costs than trying to chase profits with this game.

Sourcing would be buying em in the mart.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120206177#Comment_120206177

If cattle leave the yard the day before unless very late and are traveling a distance you are probably looking at losing a other 1.5% in KO.

Know 1-2 lads that are organic locally and carcass weight for bullocks us around the 300kg mark and that seems good for them. 50 euro transport is nearly 17c/kg, if you transport was 25 you be saving 8c/kg, if you could drop them.in yourself it back to 2c/kg.

An extra 5kgs DW adds another 7-10c/kg depending on price. From the way you describe organics slaughtering conventionally would reduce costs by 20c/kg or there about minimum.

FS may be an issue and that might be where you would get caught. I think you would need 20-25c/kg to travel a distance with cattle

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120206802#Comment_120206802

The 3 euro x weight for both buying and selling might be over estimating. Same as sticking on 250kg in the year might be. 500 kg at 18 months consistently might be hard pressed unless you have very decent land and infrastructure (assuming you are not buying organic concentrates/straights)?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120206802#Comment_120206802

It's one of the issues I see with organics. You often may need substantial investment for sucklers which is a low margin business anyway.

Weanling to store or finish is low margin as well because from what I see with organics there is a lot of lads that want to do this system to draw the organic payment. Many are reluctant to finish because of the cost of rations.

Really if you are going organic you need to have your system decided before you jump

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207073#Comment_120207073

I'd imagine too that when you're a few years in to organic, the sward won't have the ability to put a kg/day on cattle. Perennial ryegrass won't tolerate low nitrogen imput

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207365#Comment_120207365

That can be rectified by the addition of clover. Even if not stocking rate and genetic ability of the animal decides the growth rate as more and more than sward. You can stock too low as well even though in low stocking rates the cattle tend to eat the most nutritious mixture of the sward. It's often for that period late in the year that thrive may suffer

Problems I see with organics is the premium is not there. This is especially true when prices rise. The market price is alway much slower to respond to an increase, but it follows the price fall much faster.

If you cannot do sucklers I would probably look at lamb production but that has its issues as well on lowlands.

mr.stonewall

People haven't looked at the elephant in the room INFLATION. We haven't witnessed in this guise since the 70s and 80s. For most with organics it's reducing output and a potential for reducing input. The value of payments is being eroded every day and this will include SFP and organic payments. The majority of people I see converting are Suckler farmers. I have yet to come across anyone, who is willing to hang the beast. This is the pinch, where these weanlings or stores are going to have to be sold as conventional stock. Factor in a reduced LWG and reduced numbers, this is pinching the bottom line. The biggest cost saving for most is fertiliser and ration, and these wouldnt be huge on these types of farms.

The other side is the market, people are watching the pennies now and the majority of beef sold via the multiples is mince. And this it down to cost. Most will look at the price tag when putting it in the basket. Maybe in leafy Donnybrook or foxrock, that the organic will be considered. People will still pick up a roast or steak as a treat,

Finally, world herd size is contacting and population is growing, this is the pinch. We are a low cost producer compared to a lot of the indoor systems, this will be a major advantage.

I have sat down and ran the figures here, it would leave an organic payment of about €15k. This would result in having to drop calf to beef and having to up the Suckler numbers. Output would drop by 40-50%. Fertilser spend isn't big less than €2.5k averaged over the past 3 years. Meal would probably drop a small bit at the reduction in volume would consumed by higher organic price. Some building work would be needed to accommodate bedding areas and €30k wouldn't cover it.

I have decided to up the calf to beef numbers, by approx 10-20% and focus on improving DWG, through better use of grass, early turnout. Farmer numbers are dropping in Ireland due to age profile, and lots of opportunities will be there "Just remember that what glitters ain't always gold"

blue5000

I agree the savings are meal and fertilizer. It really boils down to how suitable your current buildings are for conversion.

JohnChadwick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207282#Comment_120207282

In organic the last 5 years with Sucklers, sell as yearlings. Unfortunately haven't had the cash (or haven't had the optimism maybe) over the years to reinvest in facilities, and that's coming to a head now with money needed to be put into sheds, slurry storage, and a reliable tractor for feeding, if I stay in the suckler game.

I agree it's all low margin, whatever beef system you operate. So my thoughts are, why not change to a system that doesn't require the largest capital investment.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207491#Comment_120207491

The problem wit sucklers is you do not have the output to cover costs. The cost of facilities 20 sucklers where the calves are kept to stores is probably equivalent to the cost for 60 store's. You are trying to get one productive animal to pay the same capital costs as three

Organics has the same issue for an animals the capital costs are excessive. When your contract is up get out and go conventional

JohnChadwick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207531#Comment_120207531

Prob stay in organics as I'm not willing to forego the organic subsidy payment. Would never beat that OFS payment just by scaling up production in a conventional system.

Weanling to store in organic is what I'm looking at. Needs less investment in wintering, can still draw down the subsidy, and it's a low risk low margin game.

Water John

The plan looks fine John, optimistic on the sale price. No problem doing 1kg/day on organic sward. I get that using a six week rotation, mob grazing.

If you could grow some red clover silage, that would push them on through the winter.

Water John

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/agrisearch-invests-300000-in-research-on-n-efficient-silage/

Glad to see someone is doing research study into red clover silage. Pity it isn't down here.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208274#Comment_120208274

Good to see it being embraced anyway, they're already mad about white clover here so it's progress I guess. Red clover silage bales would be a fraction of the equivalent in organic meal, it's amazing more people don't make it.

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207567#Comment_120207567

How many years do you get the organic transition payment for, and how much per hectare?

releasevalve

2023 rates for new and existing participants.

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210224#Comment_120210224

Quite generous.

JohnChadwick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210224#Comment_120210224

Yea puzzles me how you can say no to it if you're farm has beef drystock and have 50+ Ha.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210472#Comment_120210472

Absolutely, I don't know of any system regardless of how well it's ran, that can come close to those rates.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210494#Comment_120210494

It all right if you cannot farm, if you can farm any way effectively it will not wash it face.

First of all they are gross payments. Take ACRES, I have a small payment (3.4k) but it would knock nearly 1.5k off it. 27HA (24 used to go into BPS) farm. The 50 euro/ HA extra in conversion will get caught up in conversion costs. At 250/ HA it's 6750. Knock the 1500 off its 5250.

You have to move from slatted to straw bedded housing last year killed 60ish cattle at a 300+/head net margin. In organics I be struggling to source cattle and paying 800+/ ton for the bit of ration I use.

From what I can see it mostly fellows who were in sucklers who are changing to it. Sucklers are a loss making enterprise anyway. They are struggling with dairying where from what I hear more lads are leaving than joining.

Premium on organic beef is too low and costs too high.

Impossible to run a calf to beef or store operation so it's either Sheep or Sucklers really

Rusheseverywhere

Agree with Bass

Capital costs horrendous need to invest myelf as my lieback is not up to modern standards, not a proper concrete floor. Need build a manure shed, not needed on non organic as would have mats.

Swarth is poor and I think 1 in 6 bales waste due to rushes/docks/poor grass

Impossible to reseed as cannot spray off or spray emergence.

I have plenty poor land (ie floods etc) so organic suits me otherwise if you can farm waste of time.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210745#Comment_120210745

Finishing 60 cattle on 27 HA would probably be too intensive for organics anyway, you haven't factored in fert costs in that either.

Ration wouldn't make much sense to buy in organics with the price and there's also 2k extra given a year for conversion to cover the conversion costs you mentioned.

I've always said it depends on the system a person runs and it's not for everyone but it's never been more attractive to people to convert.

A big factor would be costs for finishing, but there's a webinar coming up on red clover silage on the 5th of April that would be of interest to a lot here.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/series-of-webinars-on-organic-farming-to-begin-this-week/

Packrat

Pretty insulting to describe organic farmers as "not being able to farm" in a thread specifically on Organics.

I thought we were past that.

I could say that some lads can't farm without the bag and the imported ration but that would be stupid and insulting. Yet all our forefathers did it somehow...

Is there any mod in this forum or are they running scared of the "big posters"?

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211221#Comment_120211221

Bass when is the farm walk? It’s actually a lot more challenging to farm organically, no spraying, no fertilizer and no cheap GM concentrate to fatten cattle.

If you want to reseed you plough. Any type of farming is easier on good land. Organic doesn’t suit your system, fine but don’t be knocking those of us are farming organically and able to make a living from it.

Rusheseverywhere

I think Bass point is commerically farm to draw largest income from your land by producing produce. Article in the Independent today refers to goat houses that held a single kid and the nanny came back to it in evening and nanny milked and kid killed end of year. Doubt anyone wants to go back that to that farming. Where I am my family are here several generations and I have access to farm diaries going back over 100 years and cattle far less value today then they were 50 years ago in terms of purchasing power. 25 weanlings would buy a new tractor in the 1970s. So our forefathers were making more money from farming.

I am in organic and cannot farm without imported ration from another county so not much difference that and importing from another country. Also all the ration I used in first number of years came from Britain. The paper bag stuff and plastic one that had Marks and Spencer logo on it as approved. Also I am importing slurry for my silage land. If you stock at organic minimium it is 10 cows on 220 acres whilst that is no doubt good for the environment it is a poor return on 2.2 million tied up in 220 acres

Organic is not viable in the slightest without a subsidy. I noticed even the lads at organic meat boxes etc seem to be purchasing organic cattle and killing them. As an organic suckler farmer I would not be producing them without subsidy and even with it it is not viable. Organic will be in serious issues in 5 years when alot of the current organic suckler men leave, most of lads I know are pensioners.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211219#Comment_120211219

My ration usage for cattle off grass is about 160-180 kgs in average. I use 10 ton of fertlizer 4.5T of urea, 4T 18-6-12 and 1.5 T protected. Up to last year ration was around 40/ head( for cattle off grass and fertilizer bill was 65/ head. Ration costs went up by 50% a d fertlizer doubled in my case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211221#Comment_120211221

I posted that in the context of a statement that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210494#Comment_120210494

Organics payments are a pittance at 100 euro per acre. Ya if I had a hill farm in the west of Ireland with a ewe to the acre or a bit with it or on very marginal land then yes the first 70HA @250/HA and 30 after that gives you a 19k on a 300 acre farm with the possibility of drawing 6k in acres and losing only 50/ HA on HA where the schemes clash.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211315#Comment_120211315

I agree it's more challenging m, is that not my point but the compensation is not enough if it's a commercial decision only. I accept my land is on the dryer side however that has its disadvantages as well dry summers are my bane as well as wet autumns. Every system has it challenges.

However if you think that by changing to organics ( similar to the suckler cow payments) will increase profitability substantially then it's down to your existing system if your land is anyway decent

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211221#Comment_120211221

Ah shur it's easier to make fun of things they don't (or want to) understand. It seems we aren't passed that, organic lads are looked down on by big suckler lads, big suckler lads are looked down on by big dairy lads and Larry is laughing at all of it.

JohnChadwick

In organic the last 5 years and no one around is any the wiser that I'm doing it this way. Don't really buy into the thing of farmers looking down at people and farmers looking over ditches to see what's going on. I think that day is mostly gone alright.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212213#Comment_120212213

I was speaking in the context of boards in general, but I've gotten a few comments in real life alright, not since the payment rates went up though funnily enough....

tractorporn

Mart announced further down the country. With Templemore and Tullow holding marts should be a bit easier for lads to source stock

https://twitter.com/LimTippOrganic/status/1622966087233986561?t=fY4cYb44WzHSVSp6Q1IL5A&s=19