organic farming

endainoz

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/herbal-leys-can-make-a-significant-contribution-to-beef-output/

Interesting article, pretty much confirming what a lot of regen farmers here believe.

Jjameson

endainoz wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/herbal-leys-can-make-a-significant-contribution-to-beef-output/

Interesting article, pretty much confirming what a lot of regen farmers here believe.

Any suggestions for what would work in heavy clay subsoil.

endainoz

Jjameson wrote: »

Any suggestions for what would work in heavy clay subsoil.

Im definitely not one to be giving advice on that subject, it's really all trial and error. My plan is to try to add more species into pastures rather than full reseeds. Will be experimenting with chain harrowing followed by seed broadcasting, which I'm told will need to have very good conditions to work properly. Would stitching be an option for that ground if it's easily traveled in the summer?

I'd also like to improve soil health in general if I can, a new obsession is finding a way to make some bio char at a reasonable scale to use as a base layer for my bedding area and to cover it with straw after. The theory is that it will get innoculated with the dung and urine and should make for some great stuff to put out in the fields at the back end of the year. I'm not sure of anyone else around doing this method but sure it's worth a shot!

Track9

endainoz wrote: »

Im definitely not one to be giving advice on that subject, it's really all trial and error. My plan is to try to add more species into pastures rather than full reseeds. Will be experimenting with chain harrowing followed by seed broadcasting, which I'm told will need to have very good conditions to work properly. Would stitching be an option for that ground if it's easily traveled in the summer?

I'd also like to improve soil health in general if I can, a new obsession is finding a way to make some bio char at a reasonable scale to use as a base layer for my bedding area and to cover it with straw after. The theory is that it will get innoculated with the dung and urine and should make for some great stuff to put out in the fields at the back end of the year. I'm not sure of anyone else around doing this method but sure it's worth a shot!

====================================
Apparently, the Great South American Tribes ( Aztecs ? ) were using these techniques thousands of years back. Their knowledge of enriching soil now being attributed to the success of these civilizations.
Perhaps these techniques might help us also, as we need new tools to be successful. Repeating what we have been doing for the last 50/100 yrs isn't proving to be either profitable or sustainable.
Wishing you success in your efforts.
P

Say my name

endainoz wrote: »

Im definitely not one to be giving advice on that subject, it's really all trial and error. My plan is to try to add more species into pastures rather than full reseeds. Will be experimenting with chain harrowing followed by seed broadcasting, which I'm told will need to have very good conditions to work properly. Would stitching be an option for that ground if it's easily traveled in the summer?

I'd also like to improve soil health in general if I can, a new obsession is finding a way to make some bio char at a reasonable scale to use as a base layer for my bedding area and to cover it with straw after. The theory is that it will get innoculated with the dung and urine and should make for some great stuff to put out in the fields at the back end of the year. I'm not sure of anyone else around doing this method but sure it's worth a shot!

There was a farmer in organic transition in limerick supposed to be using biochar in a living bed situation or at least they were seriously looking at it and I think have retrofitted their shed.
A living bed would be char, compost, rockdust, effective microbes (EM), woodchip, maybe straw.

The theory is it's a bedding system with no ammonia, no pathogens, like a forest soil, and the stock can even include it in their diet.
That farmer would be the first in Ireland to attempt this but they've been first in other farming methods too. It's more known in Asian countries with warmer temperatures and closer living quarters between livestock and people.

All you need for char is a cone shaped hole in the ground.

Markcheese

Is bio-char just charcoal ?
As in burning wood with limited oxygen ?
Could someone just start selling ton bags of ready to use crushed bio-char / charcoal .. ?

blue5000

endainoz wrote: »

Im definitely not one to be giving advice on that subject, it's really all trial and error. My plan is to try to add more species into pastures rather than full reseeds. Will be experimenting with chain harrowing followed by seed broadcasting, which I'm told will need to have very good conditions to work properly. Would stitching be an option for that ground if it's easily traveled in the summer?

I'd also like to improve soil health in general if I can, a new obsession is finding a way to make some bio char at a reasonable scale to use as a base layer for my bedding area and to cover it with straw after. The theory is that it will get innoculated with the dung and urine and should make for some great stuff to put out in the fields at the back end of the year. I'm not sure of anyone else around doing this method but sure it's worth a shot!

I put a bit of charcoal in under woodchip in a corner of a shed that I feed bulls in 2018. The bulls were on a lot of meal (10kg). I mucked it out this year and it was still intact. I reckon if you bedded a shed with charcoal you could leave it there for 5 years. Might not suit small calves but would be fine for older cattle. The top layer always looked terrible, but the cattle were clean and none were lame. Charcoal's ability to absorb liquid is incredible.

Timfromtang who posts in the forestry section is where I got the charcoal from. It's bloody labour intensive dirty work though. A thin layer at the bottom of a bedded shed sounds like a good idea.

Is woodchip bedding acceptable for organic farming?

Bulls on woodchip.



I think I posted this before, making charcoal in a bath, notice the insulation, and it's up off the ground too. We got enough charcoal from that to fill a 200L barrel in about 6 hours. If you had the wood close by you might work a bit more efficiently by chainsawing and splitting the heavier stuff into blocks to load into a trailer while making charcoal with the tops and keeping an eye on the fire.

Siamsa Sessions

endainoz wrote: »

My plan is to try to add more species into pastures rather than full reseeds. Will be experimenting with chain harrowing followed by seed broadcasting, which I'm told will need to have very good conditions to work properly.

My draft plan for the next reseed here (April-2021) is to sow PRG and spray with post-emergence spray. Then once weeds are gone I'll start broadcasting clover and other species. It'll take time and cost a few quid but I'd be slow to go with multi-species from the get-go since you can't spray weeds post-emergence.

I did one field here like that earlier this year and it's breaking my heart to look at all the docks in it. I topped it once and will maybe try spot-spraying with a selective herbicide post-grazing next April/May.

What I'd love to try is the molasses/seaweed spray that 'Say my name' mentioned before, and spray that on the docks.

endainoz

blue5000 wrote: »

I put a bit of charcoal in under woodchip in a corner of a shed that I feed bulls in 2018. The bulls were on a lot of meal (10kg). I mucked it out this year and it was still intact. I reckon if you bedded a shed with charcoal you could leave it there for 5 years. Might not suit small calves but would be fine for older cattle. The top layer always looked terrible, but the cattle were clean and none were lame. Charcoal's ability to absorb liquid is incredible.

Timfromtang who posts in the forestry section is where I got the charcoal from. It's bloody labour intensive dirty work though. A thin layer at the bottom of a bedded shed sounds like a good idea.

Is woodchip bedding acceptable for organic farming?

Bulls on woodchip.



I think I posted this before, making charcoal in a bath, notice the insulation, and it's up off the ground too. We got enough charcoal from that to fill a 200L barrel in about 6 hours. If you had the wood close by you might work a bit more efficiently by chainsawing and splitting the heavier stuff into blocks to load into a trailer while making charcoal with the tops and keeping an eye on the fire.

Bio char is supposed to absorb liquid 5 to 1 not quite as good as peat, but still more long lasting than straw. But the idea of combining the two is interesting to me.

endainoz

Say my name wrote: »

There was a farmer in organic transition in limerick supposed to be using biochar in a living bed situation or at least they were seriously looking at it and I think have retrofitted their shed.
A living bed would be char, compost, rockdust, effective microbes (EM), woodchip, maybe straw.

The theory is it's a bedding system with no ammonia, no pathogens, like a forest soil, and the stock can even include it in their diet.
That farmer would be the first in Ireland to attempt this but they've been first in other farming methods too. It's more known in Asian countries with warmer temperatures and closer living quarters between livestock and people.

All you need for char is a cone shaped hole in the ground.

Yeah that is sort of what I'm looking at doing alright, I'd prefer a method like your own to attach something onto a loader to make bigger batches. From your pics it looked like a custom job but would there be anywhere that would make something similar to what you have yourself, maybe even a bit of a smaller container?

endainoz

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

My draft plan for the next reseed here (April-2021) is to sow PRG and spray with post-emergence spray. Then once weeds are gone I'll start broadcasting clover and other species. It'll take time and cost a few quid but I'd be slow to go with multi-species from the get-go since you can't spray weeds post-emergence.

I did one field here like that earlier this year and it's breaking my heart to look at all the docks in it. I topped it once and will maybe try spot-spraying with a selective herbicide post-grazing next April/May.

What I'd love to try is the molasses/seaweed spray that 'Say my name' mentioned before, and spray that on the docks.

The idea of using something like "post emergence spray* is pretty counter productive when talking about what it would do to soil microbes and the existing award. Especially in an organic forum . Would those dock seeds only have come up because the soil was disturbed from tilling? Or would it have been from too much slurry and soil compaction?

Say my name

Markcheese wrote: »

Is bio-char just charcoal ?
As in burning wood with limited oxygen ?
Could someone just start selling ton bags of ready to use crushed bio-char / charcoal .. ?

It is and it isn't.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but charcoal's use is to burn so it doesn't matter if there's tars and oil from the making of it. It makes it burn better and hotter with a higher calorific value.
You're more inclined to have the tar and oil in the enclosed traditional charcoal burn. If you make char in the open like Blue above it's near impossible to retain oil and tar as it's burned off in the open air.
You'll know when to quench with the open burn when the chars are red hot with a very slight ash.

In the enclosed charcoal burn tars and oil can recondense back on the char when the air is turned off if it's not thoroughly done.

Tars and oil are harmful to soil and plant life. Not what you want on a growing medium.

Another thumbs up for TimfromTang from me. I received a bag of charcoal fines from him a few year back now and it helped get my eye in.

Say my name

endainoz wrote: »

Yeah that is sort of what I'm looking at doing alright, I'd prefer a method like your own to attach something onto a loader to make bigger batches. From your pics it looked like a custom job but would there be anywhere that would make something similar to what you have yourself, maybe even a bit of a smaller container?

The biochar cooperative in Ireland sell one but it's costly (advertised costly anyway) and not for a loader but maybe they'd incorporate brackets.
Your best bet is a local engineer who mightnt have a lot of work and doesn't know anything about char nor what people charge for kilns.
My fella added on a good bit to my second kiln so I'm not sure I'd recommend him but their work was impeccable and speedy and knew exactly what I wanted.

If you Google Wilson pyramid kilns I'd go with something like that for simpleness.
Don't get hung up on angles of kilns or vortexs of smoke burn etc, etc. Just have it narrower on the bottom slightly than the top. Don't worry about insulation either just use as dry as possible feedstock.
Make it in a sheltered yard or sheltered with trees. It all depends on the weather and sometimes with the weather it can be over sheltered.

Greenbelt forestry in the country now seemingly have a commercial biochar on the market. So that's there.
Haven't seen it nor used it or how they make it. Bar I know they 've been making themselves known online.

I was at a talk by Albert Bates and dry made char actually repels water whereas quenched and dried attracts. But I wouldn't be too hung on that either just something to keep in mind.

Siamsa Sessions

endainoz wrote: »

The idea of using something like "post emergence spray* is pretty counter productive when talking about what it would do to soil microbes and the existing award. Especially in an organic forum . Would those dock seeds only have come up because the soil was disturbed from tilling? Or would it have been from too much slurry and soil compaction?

Probably from tilling. This field would have had no tractors or cattle on it in years and no slurry. I also ran a mole plough thru it and cleared existing drains along by the ditch in August-2019 before setting rape seed.

There was plenty rushes in the field prior to that and they had taken over patches of it, so I went with a power-harrow to break them up and create something of a clear, level sod. I hummed and hawed over it but reasoned it was a once-off so went with this destructive option.

The docks started appearing alongside the emerging multi-species grasses. The ground is open in places again now since the clover has melted away in the cold weather but I'm hoping the docks don't take its place!

Would you have any suggestions for how to manage docks when reseeding ground? The field I'll be doing next April has rape in it at the moment and weanlings are being out-wintered on it.

yosemitesam1

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

My draft plan for the next reseed here (April-2021) is to sow PRG and spray with post-emergence spray. Then once weeds are gone I'll start broadcasting clover and other species. It'll take time and cost a few quid but I'd be slow to go with multi-species from the get-go since you can't spray weeds post-emergence.

I did one field here like that earlier this year and it's breaking my heart to look at all the docks in it. I topped it once and will maybe try spot-spraying with a selective herbicide post-grazing next April/May.

What I'd love to try is the molasses/seaweed spray that 'Say my name' mentioned before, and spray that on the docks.

Multiple grass species and clover (at a later date) will get you the vast majority of the benefits, the contribution of herbs will be small

endainoz

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Probably from tilling. This field would have had no tractors or cattle on it in years and no slurry. I also ran a mole plough thru it and cleared existing drains along by the ditch in August-2019 before setting rape seed.

There was plenty rushes in the field prior to that and they had taken over patches of it, so I went with a power-harrow to break them up and create something of a clear, level sod. I hummed and hawed over it but reasoned it was a once-off so went with this destructive option.

The docks started appearing alongside the emerging multi-species grasses. The ground is open in places again now since the clover has melted away in the cold weather but I'm hoping the docks don't take its place!

Would you have any suggestions for how to manage docks when reseeding ground? The field I'll be doing next April has rape in it at the moment and weanlings are being out-wintered on it.

In fairness your idea of possibly spot spraying might be the better way to go it they need to be gotten rid of. A few docks in a field are great for minerals in the soil but obviously you don't want them all over place either. Did the power harrowing stir up all those dock seeds do you reckon?

Siamsa Sessions

endainoz wrote: »

In fairness your idea of possibly spot spraying might be the better way to go it they need to be gotten rid of. A few docks in a field are great for minerals in the soil but obviously you don't want them all over place either. Did the power harrowing stir up all those dock seeds do you reckon?

I’m not sure where the dock seeds came from to be honest. There were some docks in the field but it was far from covered in them. I guess some were just in the soil and the harrow stirred them. The neighbours field across the road has plenty docks so maybe some came from there too. The other sides of the field are our yard and forestry.

endainoz

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I’m not sure where the dock seeds came from to be honest. There were some docks in the field but it was far from covered in them. I guess some were just in the soil and the harrow stirred them. The neighbours field across the road has plenty docks so maybe some came from there too. The other sides of the field are our yard and forestry.

The seeds were probably just in the ground, dock seeds can remain dormant in the ground for up to 50 years!

Pinsnbushings

Say my name wrote: »

The biochar cooperative in Ireland sell one but it's costly (advertised costly anyway) and not for a loader but maybe they'd incorporate brackets.
Your best bet is a local engineer who mightnt have a lot of work and doesn't know anything about char nor what people charge for kilns.
My fella added on a good bit to my second kiln so I'm not sure I'd recommend him but their work was impeccable and speedy and knew exactly what I wanted.

If you Google Wilson pyramid kilns I'd go with something like that for simpleness.
Don't get hung up on angles of kilns or vortexs of smoke burn etc, etc. Just have it narrower on the bottom slightly than the top. Don't worry about insulation either just use as dry as possible feedstock.
Make it in a sheltered yard or sheltered with trees. It all depends on the weather and sometimes with the weather it can be over sheltered.

Greenbelt forestry in the country now seemingly have a commercial biochar on the market. So that's there.
Haven't seen it nor used it or how they make it. Bar I know they 've been making themselves known online.

I was at a talk by Albert Bates and dry made char actually repels water whereas quenched and dried attracts. But I wouldn't be too hung on that either just something to keep in mind.

https://www.greenbelt.ie/news/biochar-your-natural-carbon-store

Looks like your work is being commercialized fast, I hope it's not just going to be used as a green washing product for the dairy industry and the real benefits or understanding of what might be possible with regen or organics etc. are lost.

Say my name

Pinsnbushings wrote: »

https://www.greenbelt.ie/news/biochar-your-natural-carbon-store

Looks like your work is being commercialized fast, I hope it's not just going to be used as a green washing product for the dairy industry and the real benefits or understanding of what might be possible with regen or organics etc. are lost.

In fairness the interest in biochar was here in Ireland back years ago. It's only these last few years money came from the EU organizing information and collaboration meetings with EU biochar producers. It was ReGen, IrBea and now it's Three C Ireland.
Greenbelt could see from the start the potential and I believe were on the European visits. All I was doing was fooling around on here.
But I enjoy fooling around on here and at home. And I think I've made it known that it's a very simple process that anyone can do. Smallholders worldwide do it. And you'd only want to see the fb groups and what's on Twitter everyday how they enjoy it and get the kick of improving their soils.
It's being pushed from the dairy angle I suspect as that's where they see a market as who'd buy it. If there were ostrich farmers thought would purchase they'd be mentioned too.
It'll be an interesting decade ahead. One thing for sure is the fertilizer industry will see a drop in product being sold. It's the biology side of fertilization I reckon and hopefully will get the attention.

Pinsnbushings

Say my name wrote: »

In fairness the interest in biochar was here in Ireland back years ago. It's only these last few years money came from the EU organizing information and collaboration meetings with EU biochar producers. It was ReGen, IrBea and now it's Three C Ireland.
Greenbelt could see from the start the potential and I believe were on the European visits. All I was doing was fooling around on here.
But I enjoy fooling around on here and at home. And I think I've made it known that it's a very simple process that anyone can do. Smallholders worldwide do it. And you'd only want to see the fb groups and what's on Twitter everyday how they enjoy it and get the kick of improving their soils.
It's being pushed from the dairy angle I suspect as that's where they see a market as who'd buy it. If there were ostrich farmers thought would purchase they'd be mentioned too.
It'll be an interesting decade ahead. One thing for sure is the fertilizer industry will see a drop in product being sold. It's the biology side of fertilization I reckon and hopefully will get the attention.

Ah ye wasn't accusing them of stealing your ideas or anything, it's just I could see it being seen as a sort of silver bullet irish style ala protected urea..some product which can be sold to Farmers that allows us to continue on pretty much as we are but looks like we are doing something for the "environment". Where as like you say I think there needs to be more of a mindset change.
Your probably right fertiliser sales will have to reduce whether we want it or not, change is happening and will happen a lot faster than it used to even 10 years ago because of the internet. The fear I'd have is we will be told we have to buy all sorts of products instead because we couldn't possibly have everything we need on our farms already to grow anything.

Say my name

Pinsnbushings wrote: »

Ah ye wasn't accusing them of stealing your ideas or anything, it's just I could see it being seen as a sort of silver bullet irish style ala protected urea..some product which can be sold to Farmers that allows us to continue on pretty much as we are but looks like we are doing something for the "environment". Where as like you say I think there needs to be more of a mindset change.
Your probably right fertiliser sales will have to reduce whether we want it or not, change is happening and will happen a lot faster than it used to even 10 years ago because of the internet. The fear I'd have is we will be told we have to buy all sorts of products instead because we couldn't possibly have everything we need on our farms already to grow anything.

It'd be the greatest day in the world if it ended up being promoted like protected urea. Those chemical inhibitors shouldn't be used by right and urea should be blended into char with granules being spread.
If char can be used and farm output is maintained and fertilizer use is reduced because of the char and less nitrogen and phosphorus is leached away into waterways then you're winning on multiple points.
I wouldn't really be that bothered where the char came from as long it's being used (and produced in country). Every ton of it used is three less tons of co2 in the atmosphere in the carbon cycle. If it's too costly farmers will produce themselves. If not or they can afford it they won't.
When I first went into derogation there was talk among teagasc of biochar being spread over outdoor slurry tanks to cut emissions and catch nitrogen. That was left by the way then and now that mantle has gone to outdoor slurry tanks in sw USA with them actually making it compulsory to comply with local regulations.
It's a chicken and egg situation in this country. Do you make the char and hope a market materializes or wait for legislation to promote it and then make it?
The ban on peat sales next year to retail and home garden use seems a little of the later is required first.

Markcheese

In a way , it's not a madly complicated thing to make at scale , if it can be made and shipped efficiently , and to the right spec ( so without the creosote type oils that were mentioned above and crushed to a suitable size ) to be just poured into a slurry tank then it is a win win , if the heat generated during the burn can be recovered and used as well then that's another layer of a bonus ..
But is there a bit of education needed as well ? In soil structure and pasture or sward diversity ,how to improve it to get the most benefit from it ..

endainoz

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-40201664.html?type=amp

"Uptake of Organic farming is very low"

Have a real issue with that line considering the amount of people that were refused entry to the scheme in 2018.

Birdnuts

endainoz wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-40201664.html?type=amp

"Uptake of Organic farming is very low"

Have a real issue with that line considering the amount of people that were refused entry to the scheme in 2018.

Indeed - DAFM, Teagasc, Bord Bia etc. need to ask themselves some very hard questions off the back of the figures in that report. Really they are failing the majority of farmers in this country when it comes to where farming needs to be over the coming decades:(

Water John

Birdnuts wrote: »

Indeed - DAFM, Teagasc, Bord Bia etc. need to ask themselves some very hard questions off the back of the figures in that report. Really they are failing the majority of farmers in this country when it comes to where farming needs to be over the coming decades:(

These bodies will not wilfully change direction. Only when politically instructed will that happen.

Siamsa Sessions

I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade but...

I would have thought DAFM and Teagasc mostly have responsibilities for production and supply of organic food, which is only one side of the coin. The other side is demand from consumers and I’ve seen no one take any initiative there to promote organic food. Outside of individual producers, I mean.

If anything, the unofficial Govt line seems to be allow retailers to keep food cheap, and ignore the more expensive organic side of things.

Water John

If we are to move a significant amount of ag production to organic, its for the EU as an export market. For example the main organic beef market ATM is Germany.

blue5000

Teagasc aren't going to change tactics while IFI is one of their golden geese.

memorystick

I found it strange to see people I know paying €70+ for a turkey 2 weeks ago and buy the cheapest of the cheap chicken for the rest of the year.