organic farming

tractorporn

Earnshaw wrote: »

If a breeding cow is on a farm, and the farm converts to from non-organic to full organic status in her lifespan - when the cow is being culled will she be deemed by the factory as a full symbol organic animal?

Or is it only her progeny that qualify as full symbol?

Any cattle born on your farm 3 months after you join are eligible for full symbol status. Breeding females on the farm before you join have ASBP status, approved for symbol breeding purposes, which Earnshaw is right means the calves from these cows are organic the cows have to be sold as conventional.

There was no market for organic cow's up until this year. The co-op in Leitrim had a market for organic cow's through Troy's in Tyrellspass this year giving bout 30c over conventional price for culls.

rounders

There is a crowd Cork Rooftop Farm that started off with a no dig system on the roof of a building in the city back in March and have now rented a plot of ground and started a no dig garden selling veg box schemes. They give good info on their Instagram if you want to see No dig in a Irish context

atlantic mist

how do organic herds manage fluke?

wrangler

atlantic mist wrote: »

how do organic herds manage fluke?

Same as conventional herds I think but there's huge withdrawal times on drugs

Water John

Withdrawal time is usually double. As a natural remedy for sheep you can feed them diatomaceous earth in a bit of ration. Not sure of its use in livestock but I think it can work too.
Longer rotation and not grazing too low would be husbandry practices that can help.

endainoz

Water John wrote: »

Withdrawal time is usually double. As a natural remedy for sheep you can feed them diatomaceous earth in a bit of ration. Not sure of its use in livestock but I think it can work too.
Longer rotation and not grazing too low would be husbandry practices that can help.

Yeah I have been using a bit of Diatomaceous earth myself mixed with some seaweed meal and though it's scientifically unproven so far, there are plenty of positive testimonials for it. It's also supposed to be good for worms but a strict rotational grazing rotation should eliminate them anyway.

Dinzee Conlee

Water John wrote: »

Withdrawal time is usually double. As a natural remedy for sheep you can feed them diatomaceous earth in a bit of ration. Not sure of its use in livestock but I think it can work too.
Longer rotation and not grazing too low would be husbandry practices that can help.

endainoz wrote: »

Yeah I have been using a bit of Diatomaceous earth myself mixed with some seaweed meal and though it's scientifically unproven so far, there are plenty of positive testimonials for it. It's also supposed to be good for worms but a strict rotational grazing rotation should eliminate them anyway.

Does anyone dose with garlic for internal worms in sheep?

wrangler

endainoz wrote: »

Yeah I have been using a bit of Diatomaceous earth myself mixed with some seaweed meal and though it's scientifically unproven so far, there are plenty of positive testimonials for it. It's also supposed to be good for worms but a strict rotational grazing rotation should eliminate them anyway.

Can you enlarge on that, we graze rotational and it doesn't help the worm burden.

Be very interested in the Diatomaceous earth alright

endainoz

wrangler wrote: »

Can you enlarge on that, we graze rotational and it doesn't help the worm burden.

Be very interested in the Diatomaceous earth alright

I find that if the paddock is left idle for 25+ days that they don't pick up much from the ground. Animals would rarely be in a paddock for more than 5 days so for a decent system you'd need about 8 paddock's.

Things get much easier when silage ground becomes available to graze as there will be no trace of worms in that ground at all so it gives a good chance for them to recover.

I do try to keep it simple to have all the stock in one group and the goal for this year will be to split some of the bigger paddocks to make a longer rotation of 30+ days to try give the wild flowers a bit more of a chance in the summer.

As for the diatomaceous earth, it's still very unproven but I'll be using it a bit more over the winter and do more dung samples.

Dinzee Conlee

wrangler wrote: »

Can you enlarge on that, we graze rotational and it doesn't help the worm burden.

Be very interested in the Diatomaceous earth alright

Are the stocking rates lower in organic - which would help for a longer rotation, and also maybe not grazing down as low?

I think you have a high enough stocking rate Wrangler?

wrangler

endainoz wrote: »

I find that if the paddock is left idle for 25+ days that they don't pick up much from the ground. Animals would rarely be in a paddock for more than 5 days so for a decent system you'd need about 8 paddock's.

Things get much easier when silage ground becomes available to graze as there will be no trace of worms in that ground at all so it gives a good chance for them to recover.

I do try to keep it simple to have all the stock in one group and the goal for this year will be to split some of the bigger paddocks to make a longer rotation of 30+ days to try give the wild flowers a bit more of a chance in the summer.

As for the diatomaceous earth, it's still very unproven but I'll be using it a bit more over the winter and do more dung samples.

My rotation is too short so, we're using nitrogen here so it'd be in a meadow in 25 days, rotation is about 15 days here, that might be my problem

endainoz

wrangler wrote: »

My rotation is too short so, we're using nitrogen here so it'd be in a meadow in 25 days, rotation is about 15 days here, that might be my problem

Definitely yeah, if you managed to add a week or so onto that rotation, you should see a serious difference. As said above though, I know it's not as straightforward with a higher stocking rate. I'm by no means an expert either, but I'm learning all the time!

Earnshaw

Is anyone doing Holistic Planned Grazing in their organic beef system?

endainoz

Earnshaw wrote: »

Is anyone doing Holistic Planned Grazing in their organic beef system?

Was looking into it, but the idea of having to move stock daily has kinda put me off the idea, will be using elements from it though, eg not grazing down too low.

Earnshaw

endainoz wrote: »

Was looking into it, but the idea of having to move stock daily has kinda put me off the idea, will be using elements from it though, eg not grazing down too low.

Half-tried it this year and keen to implement it fully next year. Was thinking of getting 1 or 2 of those Batt latches that open automatically to leave cattle into a different paddock within a divided field. That would mean only moving them every 3 to 4 days for my setup. I know Holistic Planned Grazing means you are back grazing - but the cows really get used to moving if they are encouraged at all.

endainoz

Earnshaw wrote: »

Half-tried it this year and keen to implement it fully next year. Was thinking of getting 1 or 2 of those Batt latches that open automatically to leave cattle into a different paddock within a divided field. That would mean only moving them every 3 to 4 days for my setup. I know Holistic Planned Grazing means you are back grazing - but the cows really get used to moving if they are encouraged at all.

Sounds interesting, might look into it a bit more. A fantastic page on facebook to follow is Cluainview farm. The put up loads of really detailed posts about bale grazing and the systems they use in summer and winter grazing. Very informative, would recommend to anyone looking into a different grazing system.

Water John

Diatomaceous Earth has no effect on worms only liver fluke.

Dinzee Conlee

Water John wrote: »

Diatomaceous Earth has no effect on worms only liver fluke.

Do you know Walter, if flukicides (standard, chemical ones like Fazinex for example) have an adverse affect on environment?

I know some wormers such as ivermectin's are very bad for dung beetles - just wondering is there a similar impact from flukicides?

endainoz

Water John wrote: »

Diatomaceous Earth has no effect on worms only liver fluke.

I remember hearing somewhere it had an effect on worms, it's all still very experimental however. I do think it has serious potential in preventing fluke alright.

endainoz

endainoz wrote: »

Was looking into it, but the idea of having to move stock daily has kinda put me off the idea, will be using elements from it though, eg not grazing down too low.

I have to butt in to do the broken record routine

Holistic planned grazing is just one part of Holistic management. This is critically important to understand what we're actually talking about. Holistic planned grazing is not a grazing system. Savory himself says that all grazing systems fail - the short version is due to them not incorporating the other aspects of Holistic management. In particular writing your context then using the context checking questions in all decisions.

As to grazing holistically, who ever said you must move daily is talking through their hat. There's nothing in any of the training that says that. Moves will be based on your context, incorporating social, financial and ecological aspects.

The one thing that might prompt a move by a certain time is over grazing. Over grazing is a function of time. The basic gist is pasture, or perhaps the more desirable species in a pasture will be regrowing by three days. If your animal is in there on day 4, 5, 6, they're potentially overgrazing your pasture as they're now eating your regrowth which will have a heavy effect on the plant.

In Holistic management how your run your farm is based on your Holistic context, which sounds simple but

Have you guys any links for info on DE being of use against fluke, I'd be interested in reading that.

Water John

My info comes from my organic training course, so don't have any links. Lecturer used it on his Apacas for fluke.

Markcheese

Water John wrote: »

My info comes from my organic training course, so don't have any links. Lecturer used it on his Apacas for fluke.

How does the diatomaseous earth get to the liver to affect fluke ? Or is it rumen fluke it affects ?

endainoz

Markcheese wrote: »

How does the diatomaseous earth get to the liver to affect fluke ? Or is it rumen fluke it affects ?

I'm not sure exactly how it works, something to do with microscopic fossils that travel through the gut. I can't stress this enough, it's still very experimental.

Say my name

endainoz wrote: »

I'm not sure exactly how it works, something to do with microscopic fossils that travel through the gut. I can't stress this enough, it's still very experimental.

It's the silica in the DE. It's like tiny shards of glass going through the digestive system. It shreds up the parasites.
Whether that's a good thing or not when in it gets into the soil on biology or even in the gut of the animal?

endainoz

Say my name wrote: »

It's the silica in the DE. It's like tiny shards of glass going through the digestive system. It shreds up the parasites.
Whether that's a good thing or not when in it gets into the soil on biology or even in the gut of the animal?

Ah yes the silica, that rings a bell alright. I'd hazard a guess and say the DE passed through an animal on to soil would be less harmful that the animal passing a flukiside on to soil. If they are saying food grade DE is safe for humans then I'd guess it's ok. It seems to be popular with health food shops and the like these days.

Dinzee Conlee

endainoz wrote: »

Ah yes the silica, that rings a bell alright. I'd hazard a guess and say the DE passed through an animal on to soil would be less harmful that the animal passing a flukiside on to soil. If they are saying food grade DE is safe for humans then I'd guess it's ok. It seems to be popular with health food shops and the like these days.

What’s the effect of a flukicide on the soil?

wrangler

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

What’s the effect of a flukicide on the soil?

The ivermectins are being blamed for annihilating the dung beetle after passing through the animals, maybe the flukicides are similar.

Dinzee Conlee

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

What’s the effect of a flukicide on the soil?

Most chemical have a detrimental effect on the biology in the soil, which in turn leads to poor soil health. Soil and the life inside it is fascinating stuff once you get into it.

Water John

wrangler wrote: »

The ivermectins are being blamed for annihilating the dung beetle after passing through the animals, maybe the flukicides are similar.

And if a natural product can achieve the result, it's better.
I think like this guy, I'll get away with one worm dose in an animals life.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-focus-i-just-find-the-organic-system-to-be-a-more-natural-way-of-farming/