Statement from NASRPC

Witcher

It raises a few good points, .38's being restricted, holster issues etc.

Though their point that the licence is unreadable after 6 months is a bit off the mark. They must be using theirs to butter toast, mine are nearly 3 years old at this stage and they're perfect. Just keep it in the little laminated holder.

rowa

The nargc don't pull any punches in the letter. I thought we were going to slip under the radar this time due to the current s**t storm over callinan, the penalty points and all that, doesn't look like it's going to happen now.
They should have let the hare sit, firearms licensing is way down the agenda now.

Sparks

I like how it's claiming to represent all shooting sports interests when the signatories account for maybe a quarter of all shooters in the country (and that's being generous). No clay pigeon support, no olympic support from any of the three olympic shooting bodies, no support from the IFA, the CAI isn't listed, and on and on...

Mind you, that does mean that when the dust from the current scandals settles - and when it's very likely we'll have a new Minister to work with, a new civilian oversight body over the Gardai and a new Commissioner - the new people across the table will now have a convenient list of all the people who will happily stomp on their necks the minute a weakness appears. Or, as the rest of us would call it, a **** list, where we store the names of people we'll never work with again if we can help it.

So an interesting question is, have the NARGC and NASRPC just sunk themselves, or are the rest of us being dragged down with them?

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

I'll see can I get permission so

Please obtain this in written format and supply a copy to the Mods before posting. We need to keep the site covered.

Also be selective in your quoting. It's 120+ pages.

Blay wrote: »

It raises a few good points, .38's being restricted, holster issues etc.

And some odd ones. Of the top of my head.

• Reloading for example. Both the NARGC and NASRPC refused it previously. I'm also curious as to the members of this association.
• Three firearms dealers does not constitute the majority. There is already an association of firearm dealers. Why are they not involved?
• Of the ranges involved how many are NASRPC/affiliated ranges?
• Specifically asking for NASRPC disciplines to be deemed legal. A little self serving imo.
• Asking for the Commisioner's Guidelines to be made mandatory. The guidelines were designed to be a guide for the practical application of the legislation. It would be better served asking for the legislation to be enforced (i know they ask for this later on) than to have the guidelines enacted as law. Or am i missing the obvious?

Though their point that the licence is unreadable after 6 months is a bit off the mark. They must be using theirs to butter toast, mine is nearly 3 years old at this stage and is perfect. Just keep it in the little laminatrd holder.

Yup. All my licenses wince the first issued ones in 2009 are still in perfect shape.

Rowa wrote:

The nargc don't pull any punches in the letter. I thought we were going to slip under the radar this time due to the current s**t storm over callinan, the penalty points and all that, doesn't look like it's going to happen now.
They should have let the hare sit, firearms licensing is way down the agenda now.

They have most likely being writing that for a good while. Contrary to the tone coming from Shatter and others about the constant letter writing and taking into account the events of the last few days they seemed determine to send it regardless of it's effects which, as you said, i can only see as putting our hand to get hit. With Callinane gone, a temp. Commissioner, Shatter under pressure, and the sh*t well and truly hitting the fan our issues are now either at the bottom of their list of priorities or forgotten about for the time being. Instead of "regrouping"" and gathering such info for when it's needed they once again (like the continued appeal for letter writing) want to push the matter.

If they get a response it'll be a standardised letter acknowledging the receipt of the letter, but nothing more.

Sparks

Blay wrote: »

It raises a few good points

Yeah, that's really not the point though. There's not one person on this forum couldn't raise good points if they sat down with a pad and pencil over lunch. The point is that there's a time to lobby and a time to step back so that the poop that just hit the fan doesn't land on you. This is not the time to lobby, it's the time to be out of sight and out of mind lest you wind up held up in front of the fan to save someone else from being covered in poop.

Dian Cecht

Cass,

I'll remember that if I need to in future

I got my daughter to sort me out. She said I need a file reader?????? Like you say bit big to be posting here :eek: Away for a read now

Sparks

and again...
25 March 2014:

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
769. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the recommendations he has received from An Garda Síochána and his Department in relation to changes to firearm licences; if he accepts the recommendations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13493/14]

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
772. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality his proposals to change the firearm licensing system to involve compensation for affected owners, a risk analysis of the changes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13496/14]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 769 and 772 together.
My Department is examining key issues relating to licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. The issues include the rationale for and matters arising in relation to any proposed changes. Recommendations are currently being finalised and I expect to receive a report in due course. No decisions will be made in advance of consideration of these recommendations. Opportunities for consultation with relevant stakeholders will be explored when work on the proposals is further advanced.

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

I like how it's claiming to represent all shooting sports interests when the signatories account for maybe a quarter of all shooters in the country (and that's being generous). No clay pigeon support, no olympic support from any of the three olympic shooting bodies, no support from the IFA, the CAI isn't listed, and on and on...

There is a survey going on across the pond, on surveymonkey - trying to update the financial /economic benefits shooting brings to the regional economies. No in-fighting, no claims, just simple cohesion from the people who initiated the survey . Could that ever happen here? I wouldn't hold my breath!
The research is being carried out by Public and Corporate Economic Consultants (PACEC) on behalf of:
The British Association for Shooting and Conservation Limited
The British Shooting Sports Council
The Country Land and Business Association
The Clay Pigeon Shooting Association
The Countryside Alliance
The Game Farmers’ Association
The Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust
The Gun Trade Association
GunsOnPegs
The Moorland Association
The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation
The National Rifle Association of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
The National Small-Bore Rifle Association
Scottish Land and Estates, incorporating the Moorland Group
Scottish Enterprise
Scottish Natural Heritage Limited
Scottish Country Sports Tourism Group

Sparks

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Could that ever happen here? I wouldn't hold my breath!

It was done here in 2008 by academics, not lobbying bodies:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55877440&postcount=134

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, that's really not the point though.

I think that the letter points out pretty well how shooters aren't getting a fair deal when it comes to firearms licencing.

It is pointing out to politicians the unfair treatment that we are receiving from the Gardai.

How would the average politician know about this stuff unless it is pointed out to them?

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

How would the average politician know about this stuff unless it is pointed out to them?

If you honestly believe that the average politician wants to help us out of the good of their heart, you may not have been paying enough attention to the news for the last fifty years.

Trying to get us attention now is incompetent lobbying. The very best that can happen is someone throws it at Shatter as he goes out the door and his replacement - and the Commissioner's replacement - and the people going onto this new oversight body - all take note of who we are and put us on the "do not trust because they'll get a cheap dig in at any opportunity" list. And it's far more likely that it'll get ignored because it's a new story and there's a moving bandwagon that the TDs can jump on and they prefer those; and then Shatter decides to push the review and create a problem for him to solve in a last-ditch attempt to hang onto his Ministerial post.

Last time that happened, the 2009 act effectively banned centerfire pistols. Time before that, the 2006 act gave our sport the worst kick in the fork it's ever gotten. In fact, every time that's happened, we've suffered. So why the hell would any competent person risk causing this?

vixdname

Heres a statement from the WDAI:


Clarification on the suggestion that proposals to amend firearm licensing in Ireland have been made

In recent weeks we received numerous queries from our deer stalkers regarding claims that proposals on firearm licensing had been made by An Garda Síochána to Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence Alan Shatter TD, requesting the banning of almost all currently licensed handguns and all semi-automatic shotguns, pump action shotguns, centre fire semi-automatic rifles, 30 calibre rifles. Further claims included that these proposals would affect a “great many game hunters and deer stalkers”.

We consulted with other national hunting organisations, none of whom had any knowledge of the alleged proposals. We then contacted the relevant persons in An Garda Síochánaand Department of Justice. From our discussions with them we understand at least six other national hunting organisations made similar enquiries. An Garda Síochána confirmed, while they are regularly in contact with Minister Shatter and the Department of Justice, Equality as is required under the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2009 3e, no proposals had been made by them.

The firearms policy unit of An Garda Síochána also informed us they were aware of a review by the Department of Justice on the licensing of restricted firearms. Both An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice confirmed if any amendments were to be made to current firearm licensing this would involve a full consultation with all relevant stakeholders. Marion Walsh Executive Director at the Department of Justice & Equality and Minister Shatter also confirmed this in writing.

It is expected recommendations as a result of the current review will be made in due course regarding restricted firearms (Shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than three cartridges, long guns over .308 (7.62mm) calibre, rimfire rifles holding more than 10 rounds, all handguns other than air-operated firearms of 4.5mm (.177) calibre and those using .22 rimfire percussion ammunition and designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations as well as penetrating, explosive or incendiary ammunition, shotgun slugs and sabots were also declared restricted), which represents approx 1% of all licensed firearms. While we understand the distrust and issues that exist regarding our current firearm licensing, resulting in numerous court cases against An Garda Síochána and the ongoing ad hoc approach to the granting of firearm licenses to law abiding people, until such time as actual or any proposals are known it is a pointless exercise lobbying and only serves to unduly scare the hunting and shooting community, a view held by other national hunting organisations. Statements to suggest proposals have been made are causing further financial hardship to firearm dealers, as we are aware of a number of individuals who have put on hold or cancelled decisions to purchase firearms as a result of the alleging statements.

It should be noted there are a number of wide ranging proposals at an EU level regarding firearm licensing that will require a united approach from all hunting and shooting people, if adopted. When proposals are made, which we expect, that restrict or amend current licensed hunting or competition shooting our association will not be found wanting in our support for our fellow hunting and shooting organisations as part of our continued strong representation of our members and sport. Based on the responses we received and enquiries made, at this time we are satisfied no proposals have been made regarding firearm licensing and there is no threat to deer stalking or game hunting.

Sparks

From the Dail Order of Business on Tuesday (April 8):

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
The beleaguered Minister for Justice and Equality is considering introducing amendments to the legislation governing licensed firearms.

It would make more sense, if the Minister for Justice and Equality wanted to do anything about crime, to go after those with unlicensed firearms. That would be common sense and be more practical. Will the Minister confirm that the Minister for Justice and Equality is bringing proposals before the Cabinet and elaborate on this important matter?

Richard Bruton (Minister, Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation; Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)

I am not in a position to elaborate on it. I presume it is to update the legislation on legally held firearms. It is important to ensure legally held firearms are held by those who treat them responsibly. That is a factor in the Minister's thinking, but I will have to get back to the Deputy with a specific timescale.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)

I suggest the Minister for Justice and Equality go after those with unlicensed firearms.

Richard Bruton (Minister, Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation; Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)

To be fair to the Minister, in the past few years there has been a reduction in crime involving the use of firearms. Considerable progress is being made by him and the Garda Síochána in dealing with such offences.

It's going to be fairly instructive, I think, to see how fast we get the brick dropped on the back of our head the instant doing so will get MHR even one extra vote.

Not to mention, when your advocate is a lad who just lost his firearms for breaking the firearms act several different ways on national TV, you have a representation problem...

Sparks

8 April 2014:

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
438. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he will request the Garda Inspectorate to carry out an inquiry into the administration of the firearm licensing system by An Garda Síochána since 2009, in view of the fact that over 600 cases have been successfully taken to the courts against Garda decisions. [16357/14]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

The Deputy will appreciate that firearms legislation provides for an appeal to the District Court where a firearms license has been refused by An Garda Síochána. In addition, there have been a number of judicial review cases in this area in the context of persons whose applications for firearms licenses have been refused. My paramount concern in this area is public safety. In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, my Department is currently examining key policy, legislative, administrative and other issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive a report on this matter in due course. When I have considered that report I will decide what further action is necessary in relation to the administration of the firearms licensing system. Consultation with relevant stakeholders will be addressed before any decisions are finalised in relation to proposals for change to the firearms licensing system.

vixdname

" My Department is currently examining key policy, legislative, administrative and other issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána "

Now thats a broad ranging statement if I ever saw one, so basically theyre looking at every aspect of firearm licensing from the top down, that cant end well for us I reckon.....

Sparks

If you read back through the thread (I know, it's huge, but still), you'll see that that's exactly what's been said since all this kicks off and it's not what it was being advertised as initially. And with everything that's going on with the AGS and Minister in the last few weeks, this whole thing might never get past the stage it's at now.

This part of the WDAI's statement is right on the money:

While we understand the distrust and issues that exist regarding our current firearm licensing, resulting in numerous court cases against An Garda Síochána and the ongoing ad hoc approach to the granting of firearm licenses to law abiding people, until such time as actual or any proposals are known it is a pointless exercise lobbying and only serves to unduly scare the hunting and shooting community

yubabill1

"My paramount concern in this area is public safety. In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána .."

So, Minister shatter, the reforming Minister for Justice, Defence and Equality wishes to exceed the dictat sent from the EU Commission, to show the unelected EU body that we are such good Europeans.

didn't we do enough already?
Hint; look at the deduction in your paypacket next time, before you pay your tax for sitting in your own living room.

Sparks

30 April 2014:

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
15. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality his plans to change gun licensing laws here; the consultations he has held on the matter; the recommendations from the Garda; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19265/14]

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
534. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he has received recommendations regarding changes to the licensing of firearms following an examination between his Department and An Gárda Síochána; the current status of such proposals; if he will consult with relevant stakeholders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18633/14]

Pádraig MacLochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
570. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality his plans to engage with stakeholders prior to completing his review on firearms. [18978/14]

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
601. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is aware of the serious concerns being expressed by shooting, hunting and sporting interests in relation to the firearms licensing system and the need for an independent licensing system which has its primary focus on the character of the applicant and the safety and security of the citizens arising therefrom; if he has received the submission form the sports coalition dealing with a fundamental review of the system (details supplied) if consideration will be given to opening dialogue with these stakeholders in respect thereof; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19549/14]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 15, 534, 570 and 601 together.
In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, my Department is currently examining key policy, legislative, administrative and other issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive and consider a report in relation to these matters within 2 months. When I have considered that report I will consider what further action is necessary in relation to the firearms licensing system, including the proposal from interest groups for an examination of relevant administrative issues by the Garda Inspectorate.

Officials of my Department met key interest groups in late 2013 and early 2014 who set out their concerns in relation to a range of issues regarding firearms licensing at that time. These interest groups have also communicated their views directly to me, as well as to all Oireachtas members.

Further consultation with relevant stakeholders will take place when I have considered the report and before any decisions are finalised in relation to proposals for change to the firearms licensing system.

More ill-advised poking. Right before an election, when the main parties are absolutely desperate to be seen to be doing something, anything, about any issue. Anyone remember the last time that happened? (Hint; you used to be able to licence new centerfire pistols before the last time.)

All this is stemming from a leaflet the NARGC is circulating calling themselves "the sports coalition" (really? wow.) claiming they have 200,000 votes to call on as a voting block.

Second hint; political parties are experts at monitoring voting blocks. Seriously, if you put together a 200,000-strong voting block in this country, they'd know it with the same speed and certainty that you'd know about someone kicking you in the fork. This is their mortgage payments, their whole working lives, their social circle, it is everything to these lovely party apparatchiks. So when you go to them and say you control a voting block of that size, they know you're making that **** up. They know how few votes you can really call on, and they know how many more they can get by turning round and "doing something about gun crime by banning all these nasty guns". And since now you're filed by them under their "wingnut" classification, even if they don't go to throw you under the bus today, you've burned lobbying efforts for quite a while.

Amateur hour.

meathstevie

Especially since the coming elections have no immediate impact on the national legislative level bar a couple of by elections that won't sway the balance of power.

Sparks

Yeah, that's a point worth keeping in mind when talking to candidates on the doorstep - what a local councilllor can do for you is strictly limited by law. They can't direct individual planning permission decisions (though they can have a say in general policy), they can't influence national law any more than you can by going to a TD's clinic, and there are a host of other limitations as well. This is a fairly fun read on the topic, if a bit strongly worded
http://bocktherobber.com/2014/03/local-elections-2014-what-powers-do-local-councillors-have/

yubabill1

Well, I'm betting we'll have a new minister for justice by summer's end - Big Phil Hogan is going to the EU Commission and while it doesn't look like FG or Labour will lose any cabinet members in the EU elections, there will be a reshuffle.

Now that probably only means someone else will take up where Shatter leaves off and I sincerely hope it's not a Labour MoJ, given their metropolitan views on shooting/hunting.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

Well, I'm betting we'll have a new minister for justice by summer's end - Big Phil Hogan is going to the EU Commission and while it doesn't look like FG or Labour will lose any cabinet members in the EU elections, there will be a reshuffle.

I think nobody would be surprised if that's how it played out.

Now that probably only means someone else will take up where Shatter leaves off and I sincerely hope it's not a Labour MoJ, given their metropolitan views on shooting/hunting.

I'm not so sure of that. Consider:

• Nobodys seen a Commissioner get sacked/directed to retire/whatever-you-want-to-call-it like that in a very long time. There's a lot of uncertainties here, which you wouldn't get when a Minister gets the shove. We see that so often that it's a practiced routine - anything in flight at the time of the shove gets finished. With the Commissioner gone though, that's a large hole in the civil service side of things and how that gets handled isn't clear. This may all just quietly go into the bin.
• The head of Garda ballistics, who has been one of the most prominent anti-firearms ownership people in the whole scene for a very very long time, is retiring this summer. He'll be gone before any new Minister comes in. That leaves the FPU, who are a lot less worried about target shooting and hunting because they've worked with us in the FCP and we're a known quantity to them.
• There's an enormous amount of fallout to all that's happened in the Gardai that still has to shake itself out, including the appointment of a new Commissioner, who may well be the current acting Commissioner (thus giving the AGS their first female Commissioner which would be a bit of a shake-up) or even an outsider (which would be an even larger shakeup). A policy would have to be very significant and well supported to make its way through that kind of turbulence successfully and this one isn't. It's not even a proposal yet.

I'm not making any predictions because nobody really can given the enormous amount of stuff happening in the DoJ and AGS, but if this proposal just quietly went away in the middle of all the uproar and upheaval, it wouldn't shock me in the slightest.

Jumping up and down screaming about it though... that might well poison any hope we have of a better shake of things after things settle down.

yubabill1

Sparks, we all would love this to go away like you describe.

Given we already have the tightest firearms laws in EU and this whole public safety thing originated with the EU Commission, it would take a bloody-minded MoJ to amend the SI.

That's not to say that such a person does not exist, but I have to agree that in any fight, timing is critical. And the only thing to be achieved by threatening a man knocked to his knees is self-delusion.

loftypheasant

I'm noticing alot of hostility in this thread being misdirected. Garda management, the DOJ and the minister are proving themselves to be the enemies of sport shooting. We should all get on the same side here.

Sparks

I don't recall the Minister, Gardai or DoJ ever saying we didn't need reloading or that there should only be 300 pistols in Ireland and we all had to apprentice to a bunch of lads for a year to qualify to apply for a licence for one.

The world's not as simple as a football match, and this notion that there are only two sides is a bit childish and maybe it's time we dropped it and just got on with things.

loftypheasant

Yes, it's obvious that the appeasement from different parts of the shooting community has not worked. I recall lists of 'recommended' pistols for target shooting some years ago. I have read some onerous proposals, lately, on mag limits and modifications to coax the authorities to allow centrefire pistols back, etc. These things could be viewed as paying out rope to hang ourselves with. Would not a more united front and a more adversarial approach work a bit better? Should we not be looking for gains for all instead of sacrifices. I acknowledge that we'd have a much stronger hand if the Minister didn't hold all the cards. I'm a complete outsider, here on boards, but I'm shooting with twenty years and I reckon infighting has and will cost us dear. I want to see all forms of sport shooting in Ireland flourish, not get trodden underfoot as is the case currently. Maybe that's just a childish pipe-dream considering the lack of goodwill on the side of the authorities towards us. Time will tell I suppose.

Sparks

loftypheasant wrote: »

Yes, it's obvious that the appeasement from different parts of the shooting community has not worked.

I think "appeasement" isn't as descriptive a word as several I could think of, but let's leave it at "Oh sweet suffering cats, go learn what actually happened over the last decade or so from more than one source would you?"

I recall lists of 'recommended' pistols for target shooting some years ago.

Yup, see the resignation notice mentioned above...

I have read some onerous proposals, lately, on mag limits and modifications to coax the authorities to allow centrefire pistols back, etc.

Yup, which came from one of the bodies now calling for a fight and for us to all trust them without any evidence to handle everything behind closed doors and without involving the largest bodies in the shooting community.

Would not a more united front and a more adversarial approach work a bit better?

Short answer, no.
Longer answer, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

I acknowledge that we'd have a much stronger hand if the Minister didn't hold all the cards.

If by "have a much stronger hand" you mean "were actually in the building and invited to the game and had any cards at all and were allowed to win under the rules", well, yes.

I reckon infighting has and will cost us dear.

True, but I have yet to hear anyone ever give a good argument that convinces me that the solution to infighting is to let the people who shout the loudest run things even if their history says we'd all suffer for it.

Sparks

Well, the Minister just resigned so I think this just got very-long-fingered indeed.

meathstevie

Hopefully to be replaced by a person with an understanding of the shooting and hunting scene which can only benefit all of us if our great leaders ( or those who think they are ) don't do another foot in mouth job.

Sparks

Y'know, I don't need them to have an understanding of hunting or shooting. It's just not needed for the job. Listening equally to both sides and not assuming what you don't know is just dangerous and wrong, that'd be enough...