Statement from NASRPC

rowa

Going straight to the high court.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

Why ? The laws of the land apply as much to the gardai as anyone else, if not more so.

That's correct. It's also correct that if a lorry driver has three pints and is texting to the wife when he runs the red light and hits you, that he's breaking the law and you're in the right. Thing is, you're also a red smear under the lorry's wheels.

Meaning that even when you can win a fight, quite often in the long run you're better off not getting into the fight in the first place. And if you don't think that's right, well, ask Oliver Connolly about his employment status.

Or, if we want to keep the example topical and relevant to shooting, read the judgement in McVeigh -v- Minister for Justice Equality and Law Reform, specifically this bit and read between the lines here:

According to the case-law, especially Dunne v. Donohoe, it was not a lawful decision. In my view, it was such as should have been quashed on judicial review. However, it is difficult to discern, at this stage, any advantage to be gained by quashing the decision of the Minister made more than seven years ago. I would simply make a declaration that the Minister had made an unlawful decision by basing it on an inflexible policy.

rowa

meathstevie wrote: »

Need to disagree on that one rowa, the district where I'm living has been very accommodating to all gun owners I know and nobody of sound character I know of around the local hunting scene has to my knowledge ever been refused anything you and I would deem reasonable. I would even argue that in some cases the local Super has been extremely accommodating and has been willing, without a shadow of a doubt after thorough consideration, to not hold past mistakes or actions against people while he could have easily done so in very hard to contest circumstances.

You get good and bad in every profession, but the amount of court cases for restricted firearms shows the bad to be in the majority, either that or they are afraid of putting the commissioners nose out of joint.

meathstevie

rowa wrote: »

You get good and bad in every profession, but the amount of court cases for restricted firearms shows the bad to be in the majority, either that or they are afraid of putting the commissioners nose out of joint.

The latter half of your post covers it, if it's not an illegal instruction anyone from the top down will have to follow the Commissioner's orders. That's the nature of the organisation.
And as often with what's ultimately an administrative decision, unless the likes of bribery or forging documents for example come into it, there's no illegalities involved but rather flawed decision making hence the necessity for case per case legal testing

Grizzly 45

Anyone got a link to the full story.You get a paragraph then a demand for money from th Times?:P

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone got a link to the full story.You get a paragraph then a demand for money from th Times?:P

Here you go Grizz.

Grizzly 45

No prob,someone kindly PM'd it to me.:)

rowa

I seen the Sunday Times article thanks to grizz45. In the article it says that Des Crofton as head of the nargc have instructed its solicitors to serve civil proceedings on Martin Callinan and its the first legal proceeding of its type in the history of the state. Does this mean they are suing Martin Callinan personally ?

meathstevie

I don't know if there's much point in starting civil proceedings involving Martin Callinan as an individual if anything relates to his role as Commissioner of AGS so my guess is that it's directed against Martin Callinan as Commissioner of AGS and ultimately the man with whom the buck stops for all Garda actions.

I suppose when papers are filed and the content becomes public matters will be clearer. I've no doubt that if the NARGC is going down that route a statement will be forthcoming as well.

.270 remington

could someone pm me the article please

Sparks

...and again. And not from the most celebrated of sources either. This isn't doing anyone any favours on our side lads...

11 March 2014:

Michael Lowry (Tipperary North, Independent)
412. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality in view of recent reports, if he is examining proposals at present to increase the restrictions on handgun ownership; the current status of these proposals; if he will provide an assurance that any new regulations will not impact on game hunters; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11751/14]

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Independent)
432. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he has received representations seeking the withdrawal of certain firearms from licensing, and if so, what these proposals are; if he will provide an opportunity to the tourism industry and gun clubs to make a submission on these; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12145/14]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 412 and 432 together.

In relation to possible changes to firearms licensing I refer the Deputies to my reply to questions 8957/14, 9245/14 and 9736/14 of 25 February 2014 and to questions 10365/14 and 10999/14 of 4 March . The position is unchanged since then.

Reply to questions 8957/14, 9245/14 & 9736/14 of 25 February 2014 and questions 10365/14 & 10999/14 of 4 March:

In light of public safety concerns highlighted by the Garda Commissioner and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, my Department is examining key issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. Recommendations are currently being finalised and I expect to receive a report in due course. No decisions will be made in advance of consideration of these recommendations. Opportunities for consultation with relevant stakeholders will be explored when work on the proposals is further advanced.

yubabill1

Des Crofton has written to the Sunday Times letters today 16/3 to clarify that the case against Martin Callinan is being taken by the claimant in the case where tampering with documents presented as evidence in a court case regarding firearms licensing, not by the NARGc. He further states the claimant is fully supported by NARGC and that NARGC has full knowledge of the case being taken.

Suffering Jbox

"According to the case-law, especially Dunne v. Donohoe, it was not a lawful decision. In my view, it was such as should have been quashed on judicial review. However, it is difficult to discern, at this stage, any advantage to be gained by quashing the decision of the Minister made more than seven years ago. I would simply make a declaration that the Minister had made an unlawful decision by basing it on an inflexible policy."

Sparks, you quote this above and have quoted it before. Not sure I understand your point - what would be gained by quashing the decision?

Sparks

Suffering Jbox wrote: »

Sparks, you quote this above and have quoted it before. Not sure I understand your point - what would be gained by quashing the decision?

The point was that the Minister was found to have made an illegal decision, but it took years in the courts, enormous amounts of manpower and money (supreme court costs are astronomical), and the only good it did was that paragraph going, in effect, "yeah, he broke the law, but what're ya gonna do, Ministers will be Ministers..."

I can think of better things to do with that much manpower, time and money, even if it was stipulated that it had to be spent on court cases instead of (as would be my first choice) building new ranges and bringing on new shooters and advertising the sport and lobbying for it properly.

Dian Cecht

The legal teams did well out of it I assume :rolleyes:

rowa

I see captain manwaring (callinan) has just resigned , will it make any odds to us ?

sfakiaman

Can't do us any harm.

homerhop

sfakiaman wrote: »

Can't do us any harm.

Depends on his replacment

Sparks

And on how the replacement sees the community's reaction to Callinan's departure.

This is what you'd call a sensitive time where calm, measured, grown-up actions are far far more beneficial than shouting and table-pounding.


So I have no doubt we're about to see a lot of the latter from certain quarters who would happily claim to be doing it for the good of everyone, right up to the point where it burns everyone and then they'll step forward to lead the fight against the cruel injustices of the world...

LB6

which certain quarters?

Sparks

The same ones who've made a hames of things in the past.

In actual data news, just off the phone from the DoJ, the report is not on the Minster's desk, it's still in unfinalised draft form.

And given all the news at the moment, I wouldn't be expecting anyone to be putting a rush on it if I'm honest. If we're lucky, this may just... go away. Quietly. Without fuss.

Sparks

Now *this* counts as something very interesting and which might have good long-term effects for all of us. A government statement just coming out at the moment includes (amongst the other important-but-not-directly-relevant-to-us things):

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2014/03/government-statement-on-matters-relating-to-an-garda-siochana/?cat=3

The Government ... reiterated its commitment to the reform of Garda oversight and accountability. This will include the establishment of an independent Garda authority, which is appropriate to Ireland’s needs and which will maintain appropriate democratic accountability to the Oireachtas.

The Government will bring forward the full detail of its comprehensive reform proposals in the coming months.

Yes, we won't be on their list of priorities at the start and probably not for a while, but that new mechanism could be bloody useful to the licencing problems we're seeing...

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

Now *this* counts as something very interesting and which might have good long-term effects for all of us. A government statement just coming out at the moment includes (amongst the other important-but-not-directly-relevant-to-us things):

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2014/03/government-statement-on-matters-relating-to-an-garda-siochana/?cat=3



Yes, we won't be on their list of priorities at the start and probably not for a while, but that new mechanism could be bloody useful to the licencing problems we're seeing...

You would hope with a new commissioner we will get a new broom, who will be a lot more professional than the old lot. As for an independent garda authority, it might be just like gsoc, someone else the gardai will refuse to share files and communicate with.

Sparks

I wouldn't be holding my breath for strong radical action in the next hour rowa - the new commissioner hasn't been chosen yet (we have an Acting Commissioner, and she'll be more focussed on stabilising things until the new Commissioner is chosen), and in the meantime the government just announced that someone has been bugging Garda phone calls from large numbers of Garda stations, and there are other things going on, sufficient to set up a commission of inquiry and to announce before they've even heard anything else that they're putting in place civilian oversight of the Gardai.

I don't have the words to explain how huge this is.

We're not even a speck on the horizon at the moment and please please please keep it that way, the only reason we'd come to the foreground now is if someone decided to use us as a distraction by throwing us under every bus in the Bus Eireann garage, one after the other.

Right now, staying very still and very quiet would be a really really good idea...

rowa

http://www.thejournal.ie/commission-of-investigation-garda-recordings-1380412-Mar2014/

sfakiaman

A further development on the NARGC website. They have sent a letter and submission to all TD's and Senators. It makes interesting reading.

http://www.nargc.ie/news-container/firearms-submission-to-oireachtas-members-re-firearms-licensing-system.aspx

Sparks

Just reading that now.
Did you ever wonder if someone from our side had just given up on the idea that shooting is a good thing and was trying their best to burn the entire sport down and get us pushed back to shotguns, smallbore and air only, and then maybe a bit further?

Dian Cecht

Can't open them Can someone more tech savvy post contents?

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Can't open them Can someone more tech savvy post contents?

Afraid not, so please no one try. It must be accompanied with written permission otherwise it breaks Copyright SI.

Dian Cecht

Cass wrote: »

Afraid not, so please no one try. It must be accompanied with written permission otherwise it breaks Copyright SI.

I'll see can I get permission so

* I got it sorted needed a file reader according to my daughter. She has me sorted now

Bit in it. I'm away to have a read now