Statement from NASRPC

Witcher

Sound like Mattie McGrath just got a letter from a constituent and took for granted that what they said about proposals being on the table was true.

Cass

Hence the train of thought to hold off on letter writing, and e-mails until we can come at them with "here is factual information, please explain".

Otherwise the TDs that would represent us or ask these questions will simply stop asking because they get the same response, and only look silly for asking continuously with no new response.

Sparks

Another in today. From the PQ thread:

Feb 19 2014:

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
165. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if any changes have taken place regarding the registration of firearms; the rationale for these changes; and if it is the case that An Garda Síochána has been automatically refusing licences. [8555/14]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

On 1st August 2009, new firearms licensing application processes were introduced with the commencement of the remaining sections relevant to firearms licensing provided for in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 and the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009.

Each application for a firearm certificate is judged on its own individual merits, having regard to the conditions set out in the Firearms Act 1925 as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 2006 and the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009.

The only exception to an application being considered on an individual basis is with regard to an application to certify a restricted short firearm by an applicant, who did not previously hold a firearm certificate for the firearm on or before 19th November, 2008. A new section 3D of the Firearms Act 1925, as inserted by section 30 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, was commenced on 1st August 2009 which now prevents any application being considered by an issuing person to certify a restricted short firearm that was not already licensed to that applicant on or before the 19th November, 2008. These applications are not refusals but rather applications that cannot be considered by an issuing person.

In relation to possible changes to firearms licensing, my Department is currently examining key issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in due course. No decisions will be made in advance of consideration of these recommendations. However, the issue of public safety will be paramount in such consideration.

Opportunities for consultation with relevant stakeholders will be explored when work on the proposals is further advanced.

rowa

I doubt clare daly is pro-firearms at all, so why is she enquiring about the licencing situation ?

Sparks

Probably got asked by a constituent. Very few TDs won't send in PQs when asked on the basis of whether or not they agree with whatever the question is about unless it would make them into a lightning rod.

meathstevie

Going by the news that has been breaking over the last days and hours it looks like tweaking firearms licencing is not going to be Mr Shatter's top priority in the near future.

Grizzly 45

And thats when desperate politicans are the most dangerous!:eek:

yubabill1

meathstevie wrote: »

Going by the news that has been breaking over the last days and hours it looks like tweaking firearms licencing is not going to be Mr Shatter's top priority in the near future.

IF he's around.

Sparks

meathstevie wrote: »

Going by the news that has been breaking over the last days and hours it looks like tweaking firearms licencing is not going to be Mr Shatter's top priority in the near future.

That does appear likely, but it's unlikely to affect the progress of any review except by delaying it slightly. The 2004 Criminal Justice Bill started under McDowell, but the 2006 Criminal Justice Act it led to was commenced by McDowell, Lenihan and Ahern (different sections came in at different times), don't forget. When you talk about legislation, you're talking about very long timescales and a lot of intertia. Bills and Acts and SIs and the other sundry parts of legislation do not just stop because a Minister's been embarressed in the press on a tuesday (though they can and have often started for that reason...).

meathstevie

Sparks wrote: »

That does appear likely, but it's unlikely to affect the progress of any review except by delaying it slightly. The 2004 Criminal Justice Bill started under McDowell, but the 2006 Criminal Justice Act it led to was commenced by McDowell, Lenihan and Ahern (different sections came in at different times), don't forget. When you talk about legislation, you're talking about very long timescales and a lot of intertia. Bills and Acts and SIs and the other sundry parts of legislation do not just stop because a Minister's been embarressed in the press on a tuesday (though they can and have often started for that reason...).

I realise that Sparks, the wheels of administration often grind slowly but opportunities for cranking up the popularity polls will be seized quick as lightning by the average politician.

Look at the whole centerfire pistol debacle under Ahern for a nice example; that has seriously reduced the amount of criminal violence hasn't it....

Sparks

meathstevie wrote: »

I realise that Sparks, the wheels of administration often grind slowly but opportunities for cranking up the popularity polls will be seized quick as lightning by the average politician.

Look at the whole centerfire pistol debacle under Ahern for a nice example; that has seriously reduced the amount of criminal violence hasn't it....

Doesn't matter, really. We know it's a crock, the people who know anything about the system know it's a crock, hell, the Minister probably knows it's a crock.

He also knows we have a total of about 170,000 votes spread across the entire country and that not all those 170,000 will vote in one block (the farmers, for example, will follow the IFA rather than any hunting or target shooting NGB), and even if they did, we don't have enough concentration to elect anyone on our own except maybe in Wicklow - and the two TDs FG have in there aren't big names in the party compared to the other TDs.

He also knows that Joe Public knows exactly squat about firearms and even less about legitimately owned licenced firearms, and will see him banning guns as him being tough on the causes of crime (and I'm deliberately using that phrase. Remember who used it last?). And there are a lot more Joe Publics than there are of us.

You want to know what our best chance for staving off this sort of thing is? It's getting Joe Public on our side. And you know what our best chance of doing that is at the moment? It's the Olympic shotgun lads, because the ICPSA high performance director just got named as Chef de Mission for the Rio Olympics and that's a high-profile position and that gives him the chance to promote target shooting to a very wide audience and that does us all good in the long run.

But watch our side closely while he does it. I'll make you a bet here and now, twenty quid to the charity of your choice if I lose, that when he's promoting target shooting, we'll hear one or more of the following complaints from our side - not the DoJ, not the Minister, not the ISC, not the AGS, but the people who say they're on "our side" against the powers that be.

1. He didn't promote center-fire pistols.
2. He didn't promote reloading.
3. He was only worried about olympic shotgun.
4. He's only doing it for the money.
5. This is all useless and it'll never work, we have to go to the courts to get the Minister to fall in line.
6. That lot (the ICPSA) are just another bunch of Me Feiners, they're not out to help <insert specific discipline here>

I mean, I've shot shotgun precisely twice in my life, and that was casual plinking at clays, not even DTL, let alone Olympic trap or skeet; but I know, for a fact, that this is one of the best things that's happened to our sport since the Modern Pentathlon people went to London and did so well. But we have a small cabal of idiots in our sports who see anything that helps someone else other than their tiny area as being a negative, and they'll happily squat over such efforts and relieve themselves before they'll try to see a bigger picture.

It's why we can't have nice things...

Sparks

...and another PQ...
Feb 20 2014:

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
184. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the position regarding the submission made by An Garda Síochána to enforce a ban on shotguns which are capable of holding more than three rounds. [8648/14]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

In relation to possible changes to firearms licensing I refer the Deputy to my reply to questions 6692/14 and 6776/14 of 11 February 2014, questions 6989/14, 7049/14 and 7126/14 of 12 February, and questions 7552/14, 7554/14, 7555/14 and 8138/14 of 18 February. The position is unchanged since then.

Reply to questions 6692/14 and 6776/14 of 11 February, questions 6989/14, 7049/14 and 7126/14 of 12 February, and questions 7552/14, 7554/14, 7555/14 and 8138/14 of 18 February:

My Department is currently examining key issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in due course. No decisions will be made in advance of consideration of these recommendations. However, the issue of public safety will be paramount in such consideration.

Opportunities for consultation with relevant stakeholders will be explored when work on the proposals is further advanced.

meathstevie

Sparks wrote: »

Doesn't matter, really. We know it's a crock, the people who know anything about the system know it's a crock, hell, the Minister probably knows it's a crock.

He also knows we have a total of about 170,000 votes spread across the entire country and that not all those 170,000 will vote in one block (the farmers, for example, will follow the IFA rather than any hunting or target shooting NGB), and even if they did, we don't have enough concentration to elect anyone on our own except maybe in Wicklow - and the two TDs FG have in there aren't big names in the party compared to the other TDs.

He also knows that Joe Public knows exactly squat about firearms and even less about legitimately owned licenced firearms, and will see him banning guns as him being tough on the causes of crime (and I'm deliberately using that phrase. Remember who used it last?). And there are a lot more Joe Publics than there are of us.

You want to know what our best chance for staving off this sort of thing is? It's getting Joe Public on our side. And you know what our best chance of doing that is at the moment? It's the Olympic shotgun lads, because the ICPSA high performance director just got named as Chef de Mission for the Rio Olympics and that's a high-profile position and that gives him the chance to promote target shooting to a very wide audience and that does us all good in the long run.

But watch our side closely while he does it. I'll make you a bet here and now, twenty quid to the charity of your choice if I lose, that when he's promoting target shooting, we'll hear one or more of the following complaints from our side - not the DoJ, not the Minister, not the ISC, not the AGS, but the people who say they're on "our side" against the powers that be.

1. He didn't promote center-fire pistols.
2. He didn't promote reloading.
3. He was only worried about olympic shotgun.
4. He's only doing it for the money.
5. This is all useless and it'll never work, we have to go to the courts to get the Minister to fall in line.
6. That lot (the ICPSA) are just another bunch of Me Feiners, they're not out to help <insert specific discipline here>

I mean, I've shot shotgun precisely twice in my life, and that was casual plinking at clays, not even DTL, let alone Olympic trap or skeet; but I know, for a fact, that this is one of the best things that's happened to our sport since the Modern Pentathlon people went to London and did so well. But we have a small cabal of idiots in our sports who see anything that helps someone else other than their tiny area as being a negative, and they'll happily squat over such efforts and relieve themselves before they'll try to see a bigger picture.

It's why we can't have nice things...

Amen to that Sparks. I for one have not one iota of interest in competition air rifle but it's your thing, mine is hunting with firearms which puts us in the same boat. We need a gun to do what we enjoy and anything promoting responsible gun ownership in this country can only benefit us both.

Sparks

More today:

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
513. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality to set out his plans to amend current legislation to further control and restrict the use of handguns which are currently licensed, including centre-fire and .22 calibres as well as pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns capable of holding in excess of three rounds; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8957/14]

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
521. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if An Garda Síochána and his Department are engaged in a joint consideration in respect of firearms licensing matters; if so, the stage the process is at; and the reason he considers that a review is necessary at this stage. [9245/14]

Pádraig MacLochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
563. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is planning to introduce new legislation on firearms; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9736/14]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 513, 521 and 563 together.
In light of public safety concerns highlighted by the Garda Commissioner and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, my Department is examining key issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. Recommendations are currently being finalised and I expect to receive a report in due course. No decisions will be made in advance of consideration of these recommendations.
Opportunities for consultation with relevant stakeholders will be explored when work on the proposals is further advanced.

I think the tone of the reply is starting to get worrying...

rowa

That answer is the first indication as to the way shatter is leaning, and it doesn't look good.

Sparks

I'm reading it more as "I didn't give a crap, but now you're bothering me while half the media are trying to rip me a new one, so feck off or else".

Sometimes poking the bear's not a good idea...

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

I'm reading it more as "I didn't give a crap, but now you're bothering me while half the media are trying to rip me a new one, so feck off or else".

Sometimes poking the bear's not a good idea...

I have to agree, a premature email campaign wasn't going to do anything but wind shatter up.

yubabill1

rowa wrote: »

That answer is the first indication as to the way shatter is leaning, and it doesn't look good.

Charlie's question is nearest to the nub of it.

What's the chances they're going to propose something that'll cost every one of us money?

Those recent newspaper articles were only the softener. Shatter/Callinan are already painting us as threats to public safety.

Funny, thought NOT being a threat to public safety was a requirement for getting a firearms licence?

yubabill1

rowa wrote: »

I have to agree, a premature email campaign wasn't going to do anything but wind shatter up.

BTW, don't wind ME up - I go by the name OKIBB on Politics.ie, which stands for "one knife in Bertie's back" - I gave some of the ammo to a journo that helped fell him and I'm proud of it.

yubabill1

This seems to be the survey in the newspaper articles; says 13% of Irish people either currently own a gun (6%) or used to (7%)

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/flash_arch_390_375_en.htm#383

wexfordman2

Sparks wrote: »

I'm reading it more as "I didn't give a crap, but now you're bothering me while half the media are trying to rip me a new one, so feck off or else".

Sometimes poking the bear's not a good idea...

Perhaps a distraction from his current difficult might be what he wants. What better way to prove his' ability ' and divert attention by showing the public he's going to take' guns off the streets'

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

This seems to be the survey in the newspaper articles; says 13% of Irish people either currently own a gun (6%) or used to (7%)

What a load of balls.

Currently there are 178,000 firearms licenses. Not people, licenses. Allowing for one gun households, and then people with two or more you could make an educated guess of 100,000 people with firearms. In a country with a population of 4.4 million that is 2.2% of the population currently with firearms. Allowing for the figure of 230,000 some 3-4 years ago that's a drop of 23% in the number of licenses, and respectively some 25,000 fewer people with firearms. Meaning at it's height 5.2% of the population had firearms, and you CANNOT combine both figures as was done in that "survey" because they are not two separate sets of figures but an adjustment of the same set.

wexfordman2

That's a big drop in the number of firearms cass, 60,000 odd over three or four years? Is there an explanation for that?

Cass

No idea lad. I'm trying to find where i saw the figures (might even have been in this thread) but in 2009 or so the number was estimated/calculated at 230,000 or so. Recent figures show the number to be fewer than 180,000.

There has probable been a larger amount of people not renewing for financial, medical, and lack of interest reasons. I mean i've cut down from 13 to 5. Others cannot afford to keep so many guns (just look at the ranges and the drop in numbers to show this). Some are getting on in age or suffering medical reasons and so give p shooting. Then lastly you have the ones that simply have lost interest in shooting.

All combined with older guns, and those given up for destruction and you're looking at a fairly substantial drop in license numbers. That's just an "educated" guess.

Sparks

wexfordman2 wrote: »

That's a big drop in the number of firearms cass, 60,000 odd over three or four years? Is there an explanation for that?

An 8 page form and an 80 euro fee.

Cass

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Winner of the "most to the point" award.


On a side note, been reading this for a while and i'm having trouble with some of the information contained in it.

The number of licenses quoted, the "blasé" revocation of current licenses, the claim that 168 cases were won, and most importantly this notion of a blanket ban which i have not seen.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

What a load of balls.

Currently there are 178,000 firearms licenses. Not people, licenses. Allowing for one gun households, and then people with two or more you could make an educated guess of 100,000 people with firearms. In a country with a population of 4.4 million that is 2.2% of the population currently with firearms. Allowing for the figure of 230,000 some 3-4 years ago that's a drop of 23% in the number of licenses, and respectively some 25,000 fewer people with firearms. Meaning at it's height 5.2% of the population had firearms, and you CANNOT combine both figures as was done in that "survey" because they are not two separate sets of figures but an adjustment of the same set.

The survey says 13% of Irish people either have or used to have firearms.

Just showing how it's useful to the likes of us when we can use the same data foisted onto the public in support of our case.

Admittedly, merely a tactic but an interesting exercise.

Cass

Considering the amount of people that are under the age to own/possess a firearm (under 16) the number of people disentitled, through criminal/nationality reasons, i highly doubt that 13% of people have at one stage owned a gun.

Allowing for only one license per person the number of licenses have never exceeded 240,000 licenses, let alone people. So having some 500,000 people with firearms, would indicate a firearm license amount of roughly (based on current license to person ratio) 600,000 licenses.

Again this is all guess work, and rough figures, but you get the point. I personally think it's highly over estimated. However i suppose it could be true if you look back for the last 40 years, but if you look back that far any number can be made to seem artificially high.

On the off chance it is true what are the opinions of the people that used to own firearms? Do they still hold the values that made them want a firearm before? IOW could our "lobby group" grow from the current 100K+ to 600K? If so why are we not using this tool?

I know one lad that bought a gun, got a license, never collected the gun, and a year later sold it without ever possessing it or using it. Possibly a rare occurrence but my point is this person is classed as firearm owner even though he may not have the same train of thought as other regular firearm owners.

yubabill1

Cecilia Maelstrom and the EU Commission are pushing all this

eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2013:0716...

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-is-new/news/news/2013/20131021_01_en.htm

the EU Commission is an unelected body.

Get this for indiscriminate crap

from your friendly EU press office ; http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-980_en.htm


"Over the last few years, tragic gun attacks in Europe have repeatedly caught our attention, notably in Norway, Belgium, Finland, France or Italy to mention but a few. No country is unaffected and in the EU as a whole, more than one thousand people are victims of homicide by firearms each year, and half a million firearms that have been registered as lost or stolen in the EU remain unaccounted for. "

Cass - I know the survey is inaccurate, I'm saying it's sometimes useful to use your opponent's inaccurate info to your advantage.

.270 remington

We have been in this dilema before all it takes is some TD to start shouting about the Disturbing amount of hand guns licenced be it .22 or centerfire in the Dail and we know what happened last time
I think winding up the minister by emailing or contacting him about this issue is a Very bad idea at the moment.
Do people not realise all it takes for him is to sighn off on one SI and we could end up loosing everything or he could have a temporary custody order the same as 1972 and it would still be as legal now as 1972.
I think its about time we had one organisation to represent All shooting sports and be heard as one voice and maybe then we can have constructive dialogue with the powers that be .