Statement from NASRPC

Cass

Tell me it's a joke that you quoted that independent article?

Article wrote:

Almost three-quarters of Irish people think gun crime is going to escalate.............

I think my house insurance might go up. Doesn't mean i'm not renewing it. I think petrol prices will continue to rise. Doesn't mean i'm going to take up cycling.

IOW what they "THINK" and €3.50 will get them a cup of coffee.

Brussels said it wants to use new laws, including possible minimum sentencing, to tackle the threats posed by illegal use of firearms

How about just tackling illegal firearms first?

It is looking at stricter rules on production, sale, possession, trade, trafficking, storage and deactivation including using serial numbers, common criminal sanctions and tougher licensing laws

None of that applies to Ireland.

• We already have the strictest gun licensing laws in the EU
• Our firearm must have serial numbers to be licensed
• We must have a license to have firearm
• RFDs must be vetted, licensed and record every transaction, and even storage of a firearm
• All deactivations are controlled via licenses being cancelled, and visible proof the gun has been deactivated.

The Eurobarometer survey found that o ne in 10 gun owners in Ireland keeps the firearm for personal protection

Illegal and not a reason to get a firearm. So it's either made up, or the people surveyed are "thinking/guessing" again.

more than one fifth think gun crime in the country is very high

How many in the survey?
Where do they live (city/rural)?
Have they experienced gun crime or just read about it?

More than half of Irish people also called for stricter regulation of firearms

What happened the 71% they mentioned earlier? Did some cop on?

Secondly do these people understand how guns are licensed? Do they know what we have to do, and how long it takes to get one? Are they referring to licensed guns or the illegal gun trade?

The Eurobarometer survey revealed that more than 1,000 thousand people are shot dead each year .........

European figures, and not even 1% of the actual figure for Ireland over the past 3-5 years IIRC. Open to correction on that.

However the numbers are not as important as people reading that and associating it with Irish figures - IOW sensationalism.

Two methods being looked at by the Commission are specific deactivation techniques to ensure firearms cannot be used once taken off the street

When a gun is destroyed here it's cut into a minimum of three pieces. That;s pretty deactivated.

........ and marking guns with with serial numbers when they are manufactured in order to help trace those used by criminals

Seriously!!!!!!!!

/ahem

IT'S ALREADY DONE. :rolleyes:

It is also considering minimum sanctions for gun crime including stipulations as to whether the illicit manufacture, trafficking, tampering with markings, illegal possession of a firearm and intent to supply should mean jail

It already is a crime. Jesus people have lost their guns, and been investigated for having a deactivated round or piece of brass here.

That entire article is a mix of sensationalism, skewed figures, and mostly data relating to gun control/crime in other EU states/countries. None of it, and i mean none relates to Ireland as everything mentioned is already carried out to a higher than normal standard.

rowa

Cass wrote: »

That entire article is a mix of sensationalism, skewed figures, and mostly data relating to gun control/crime in other EU states/countries. None of it, and i mean none relates to Ireland as everything mentioned is already carried out to a higher than normal standard.

And you're surprised because ?

There is rarely a decently and fairly laid out article or programme about firearms in the irish media. Especially the television, tv3, which is a bizzare mix and the television equivalent of the daily mail mixed with the sun, is the worst offender.

yubabill1

General decline in reporting standards creeping into Indo and Times.

Reporter didn't do any research on Ireland's legislation.

Cass

rowa wrote: »

And you're surprised because ?

Because when Battlecorp asked about statistics being available in relation to legally held firearm crime.......................

BattleCorp wrote: »

Surely statistics here in Ireland would show that legally held firearms aren't a threat to public safety..

............. Zxthinger linked to this article as possible source for figures.

Zxthinger wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-29677478.html
There ye are!!!

How valid these are is anyone's guess but that's how they were presented! Sadistic Statistics..

The central statistics office would have been a much better source although they still would not differentiate between illegal and legally held firearms used in a crime.

The Indo and other media have shown themselves to be very anti firearm, and such hyper sensational stories have been run in the past. It's a pity that due to Minister Sherlock's Copyright SI the "Press Clippings" thread was removed or i would look through it and link to such stories.

dc99

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/gsoc-controversy-highlights-the-joke-of-a-democratic-ireland-258710.html

I know this is fairly off topic, but it just shows how our little Island can deal with things - the link to our thread here is that smo of the usual suspect are involved here as well as in this Newspaper articule....

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

General decline in reporting standards creeping into Indo and Times.

Reporter didn't do any research on Ireland's legislation.

Well gun matters are easily dealt with in journalist school these days.:rolleyes:
1] They are all BAD if owned by civillians.

2] Dunno what type of handgun it is ???Its a Glock!!

3] If it is one of those long type guns that has a box thingy sticking out from under it.Its a AK15 or an MK 47!!.[As reported a few times in the US media!]

4]ALL rifles no matter what are capable of pinpoint accuraccy out to FIVE miles and any civillian using these are referred to as "snipers" and law enforcement/army as "trained marksmen".

5] Make sure any crime story has a sinister picture of a gun or somone brandishing one ,even if the story is about people dodging bus fares.

6]Keep a kids toy handy so if there is an incident involving a gun and there is nothing worth photographing .Photo the teddy lying on the ground or on broken window glass for a dramatic pic.Also offer total strangers 200 euros or better teens to pose crying in each others arms after a shooting.. This sick trick was pulled by German media after the Wennedien/Winniden shooting,and they were pulled on this by German gun groups after the towns people basically RAN the press out of the town because of it.:mad:

7] If you have a comments section,make sure plenty of anti gun comments are allowed usually in a 2to1 ratio to pro gun comments.Make sure you run in Ireland every minor shooting incident that the other media ignore .

8] If at all possible NEVER run a pro gun story,and if you do try and slant it that the pro gun people look like knuckle dragging, wife beating,daughter molesting trailer trash ready to blow at any given second.

Sparks

...all of which just goes to show that we haven't got much hope of embarrassing a sitting Minister (whether by taking court cases or by anything else), and that they wouldn't have much media opposition if they wanted to shut us down.

To call our position precarious really is to live in denial of the fact that it's a lot worse...

...and it's why premature protestation to the Minister, the DoJ or the TDs isn't a great idea. When you're in such a weak position and haven't much hope of ever improving things dramatically, you don't want to start making more enemies than you already have and giving a Minister just another little headache when he's dealing with something as damaging to his career as the GSOC affair threatens to be, that's a fast way to get a slap.

cookimonster

Sparks wrote: »

.....and it's why premature protestation to the Minister, the DoJ or the TDs isn't a great idea.

Yes indeed, it is premature to 'protest but given the circumstance, the method and indeed the source of the original statement I belive a civil request for clarification from the Department on the subject matter is bonafided and can do no harm.

Start at the beginning, get an answer, no matter what it may be, then start from there, then do it all again.

Sparks

cookimonster wrote: »

I belive a civil request for clarification from the Department on the subject matter is bonafided and can do no harm.

Yup, and that's what should have been done by the NARGC/NASRPC before ever releasing the initial press release, instead of winding up every shooter who saw their statement and resulting in large numbers of people sending in protests against things that didn't exist.

I'm all for timely action, but "timely" doesn't just mean not waiting for five or six years after an Act is passed before asking if the law has changed; it also means not organising large scale protests too early as well...

cookimonster

Completely agree with you, very badly thought out and delivered from the out set.
What indeed can be protested against if no one knows the facts.

So let's as individuals at least ask, in a cordially manner as to the facts. There will be time to organize at a latter date when something more concrete is known.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

...and it's why premature protestation to the Minister, the DoJ or the TDs isn't a great idea. When you're in such a weak position and haven't much hope of ever improving things dramatically, you don't want to start making more enemies than you already have and giving a Minister just another little headache when he's dealing with something as damaging to his career as the GSOC affair threatens to be, that's a fast way to get a slap.

Thinking if anybody believes Shatter on this (which does not seem to be the case), he will still be a prime candidate in the upcoming reshuffle.

Sparks

True - but then on the other hand, Justice was always seen as a stepping stone to Finance anyway...

tomtucker81

I would say they could leave him (minister) where he is in the reshuffle, any movement will make the current situation look worse, like he's being deliberately moved or trying to hide from it.

Anyway, as regards the proposed changes, does anyone have anything concrete on what they are? Because if they are as radical as believed, the legislation will have to be changed. This means a draft bill will have to be put forward, where we will see exactly whats to be changed, before it is debated on in the Dail. Then amendments (if any) will be made. Then voted on in the Dail and Seanad.

Basically I think we should wait to see the draft before making too much noise, or as a previous poster stated, dont be giving anyone a headache yet! Keep the powder dry.

Witcher

tomtucker81 wrote: »

Anyway, as regards the proposed changes, does anyone have anything concrete on what they are? Because if they are as radical as believed, the legislation will have to be changed. This means a draft bill will have to be put forward, where we will see exactly whats to be changed, before it is debated on in the Dail. Then amendments (if any) will be made. Then voted on in the Dail and Seanad.

There is no need for bills and debates. The minister can sign an SI putting it into law immediately.

Though they have said he will consult with the shooting orgs. if changes are going to be made.

tomtucker81

Blay wrote: »

There is no need for bills and debates. The minister can sign an SI putting it into law immediately.

An si is a bill or amendment to an act, signed into law. Not all are debated as some have universal approval. I dont think this will meet universal approval.

as also stated above, the safety factor of a chap losing it and going on a rampage could be bad, but how many times has it happened? There are far more incidents of vehicles being used for this. The man that took a coach across dublin in may 06 being a prime example.

Witcher

tomtucker81 wrote: »

An si is a bill or amendment to an act, signed into law. Not all are debated as some have universal approval. I dont think this will meet universal approval.

The only people who wouldn't approve are shooters and they generally don't give two craps what we think.

tomtucker81

Blay wrote: »

The only people who wouldn't approve are shooters and they generally don't give two craps what we think.

Yeah I think we're going to have the healey raes arguing for us!

Sparks

tomtucker81 wrote: »

An si is a bill or amendment to an act, signed into law. Not all are debated as some have universal approval. I dont think this will meet universal approval.

An SI is not a bill or an amendment to an act, it is secondary legislation and doesn't get debated in the Dail. The minister drafts it and signs it and that's that. (In practice, the AG's office and the relevant civil service department is heavily involved and there's often consultation with stakeholders - regardless of the area the SI is aimed at, its not just us - and it takes a bit longer, but in theory the Minister could do it all himself in one afternoon.

Also, the SIs we're specifically talking about are ones that the Minister is granted full authority to draft by the Firearms Act, so challanging them legally would be tremendously difficult and expensive, if not impossible (and practically, in the real world, "impossible" is about the right word to use).

dc99

Sparks wrote: »

?......., but in theory the Minister could do it all himself in one afternoon. ).

Case in point......the Finance Minister guarantee of the banks of the banks......? Wasn't that an si signed without consultation ?

dc99

Lads, realise this we as a country have the same population as the city of Manchester (inside the m60 ring road).
We are a very very small pimple on the a**e of democracy.

No-one in Europe or the world cares if we have guns.

The city council in Manchester has more spending power than us.....

All our "elected" officials are worried about is where the next bob is coming from and that if they are not in office they are loosing out, so they will play to the masses and the media will support them as well cause they believe their own hype (gun owners are baddies) so there fore cannot be tolerated.....

Michael Collins must be turning in his grave.....with what our current generation of "politicians" are doing to this country......

Fallow01

Interesting report compiled by the EU in 2013 showing rates of gun ownership, homicide and suicide from licensed firearms

If you go to the last page you'll see Ireland has 8.6 legally held firearms per 100 population, 0.48 homicides by firearms per 100,000 population and 0.56 suicides by firearms per 100,000 population

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/organized-crime-and-human-trafficking/trafficking-in-firearms/docs/1_en_act_part1_v12.pdf

BattleCorp

Fallow01 wrote: »

Interesting report compiled by the EU in 2013 showing rates of gun ownership, homicide and suicide from licensed firearms

If you go to the last page you'll see Ireland has 8.6 legally held firearms per 100 population, 0.48 homicides by firearms per 100,000 population and 0.56 suicides by firearms per 100,000 population

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/organized-crime-and-human-trafficking/trafficking-in-firearms/docs/1_en_act_part1_v12.pdf

Does the homicide figure for Ireland include homicides where illegal firearms were used?

Zxthinger

BattleCorp wrote: »

Does the homicide figure for Ireland include homicides where illegal firearms were used?

It doesn't seem to! It just lumps all shootings together as far as I can see and such it plays right into the hands of the PTB and the agenda.

Sparks

Mod Note:
One sub-thread split out into a thread of its own and some light pruning done of stuff that had wandered so far from the topic that it couldn't be seen anymore.

This particular topic's a bit important folks, we generally don't enforce rules about topic drift and let things evolve naturally, but on this occasion, a little refocussing was a good thing.

cookimonster

Just got this back, basically the same reply with the exception of it acknowledging the statements from the shooting groups and the orchestrated petition of politicians.

yubabill1

cookimonster wrote: »

Just got this back, basically the same reply with the exception of it acknowledging the statements from the shooting groups and the orchestrated petition of politicians.

For Alan Shatter, that's one humble reply.

Sparks

From the PQ thread:
Feb 18:

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
549. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the position regarding the proposals submitted to him by the An Garda Síochána seeking new legislation to ban almost all handguns which are currently licensed, including centre fire and most of those .22 calibres which are on the Garda Commissioner’s list of unrestricted handguns; and the proposals which seek the banning of all pump action and semi-automatic shotguns which are capable of holding more than three rounds and all semi-automatic centre fire rifles. [7554/14]

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
550. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if his attention has been drawn to the fact that if he accedes to the Garda proposals a very large number of firearms which are currently licensed will be banned and licence holders will be required to either sell them in what will then be a non-existent market or have them destroyed as under the Garda proposals there will be no scheme of compensation for the effective confiscation of property and no compensation for licence holders who were required by the State to expend significant amounts of money in enhanced security arrangements at their homes to licence these firearms; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7555/14]

Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
559. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality his plans regarding gun control and availability; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7752/14]

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
578. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is considering proposals to ban a number of classes of firearms including handguns and pump action and semi-automatic shotguns; his views on whether such a proposal will lead to a large number of licensed firearms being banned and destroyed or sold by their owners; if he will agree that the market for selling such banned firearms will be restricted in view of the ban; his plans to introduce a scheme of compensation for such licensed owners; his views on whether any new proposal to ban certain firearms will have a detrimental effect on rifle range owners and businesses and on members of the National Association of Regional Game Councils; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8138/14]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 549, 550, 559 and 578 together.
In relation to possible changes to firearms licensing I refer the Deputies to my reply to Questions Nos. 458 and 464 (6692/14 and 6776/14) of 11 February 2014 and to Questions Nos. 143, 149 and 153 (6989/14, 7049/14 and 7126/14) of 12 February 2014. The position is unchanged since then.

Reply to questions 6692/14 and 6776/14 of 11 February 2014 and to questions 6989/14, 7049/14 and 7126/14 of 12 February 2014:

My Department is currently examining key issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in due course. No decisions will be made in advance of consideration of these recommendations. However, the issue of public safety will be paramount in such consideration.

Opportunities for consultation with relevant stakeholders will be explored when work on the proposals is further advanced.

I think it's fairly conclusive now that further PQ's are not going to help any.

Cass

No.

Same old replies, and we're not going to get more until he is ready.

BattleCorp

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
549. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the position regarding the proposals submitted to him by the An Garda Síochána seeking new legislation to ban almost all handguns which are currently licensed, including centre fire and most of those .22 calibres which are on the Garda Commissioner’s list of unrestricted handguns; and the proposals which seek the banning of all pump action and semi-automatic shotguns which are capable of holding more than three rounds and all semi-automatic centre fire rifles. [7554/14]

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
550. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if his attention has been drawn to the fact that if he accedes to the Garda proposals a very large number of firearms which are currently licensed will be banned and licence holders will be required to either sell them in what will then be a non-existent market or have them destroyed as under the Garda proposals there will be no scheme of compensation for the effective confiscation of property and no compensation for licence holders who were required by the State to expend significant amounts of money in enhanced security arrangements at their homes to licence these firearms; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7555/14]

Does the part that I highlighted mean that proposals have indeed been submitted by the Gardaí to the Minister?

Cass

Don;t think so. No.

It is the TDs asking about proposals that have been submitted as per the NARGC/NASRPC line of thought. However Minister Shatter states he has not received them yet in his reply:

Shatter wrote:

I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in due course