Shannon Airport Thread [Mod Warning in First Post]

GCU Flexible Demeanour

I think there's a lack of perspective in these exchanges. Firstly, DAA and Aer Lingus most certainly are building on Dublin's success in attracting transatlantic hub business. That's no secret.

http://www.daa.ie/gns/media-centre/press-releases/15-02-03/Dublin_Airport_And_Aer_Lingus_Promote_Dublin_As_Hub.aspx

<...>
Dublin Airport and Aer Lingus will hold events in cities such as Manchester, Glasgow, Birmingham and Cardiff showcasing the Aer Lingus transatlantic product and explaining the ease and convenience of connecting in Dublin. They will also jointly attend a trade show in London to target the British travel trade sector. The first event will be held in Bristol on Wednesday, February 4.

“Using Dublin to connect is a faster, more efficient and more pleasant option than connecting via a continental European airport or travelling by road or rail to a larger British airport,” Mr Harrison said.

“Flying with Aer Lingus to North America via Dublin, saves money, saves time and saves stress versus London,” according to Mr Rutter.” <...>

They even say, in a line sure to win hearts on this forum

Dublin Airport is the only major airport in Europe to offer US preclearance

So, absolutely, both DAA and Aer Lingus see scope to attract business from UK airports to Dublin. It simply is more important to them than Shannon, for very good reasons.

Last year, a little less than 2.5 million passengers travelled between Ireland and the US. Of those, 2.1 million (over 80%) used Dublin. So, absolutely, commercial decisions won't see both airports as equally valuable.

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I think there's a lack of perspective in these exchanges. Firstly, DAA and Aer Lingus most certainly are building on Dublin's success Shannon's innovations in attracting transatlantic hub business. That's no secret.

The former Shannon Airport director Michael Guerin must be shaking his head in disbelief that a concept he promoted in 1984 i.e. a “US Immigration Pre-Clearance Facility” for Shannon, in order to offset any business that would be lost to Dublin when the Open-Skies agreement took effect.

Ironically, it is this facility that Dublin got too, that is now undermining it, as Aer Lingus moves services from Shannon to meet shortages in Dublin in order to satisfy English demand.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

<...>as Aer Lingus moves services from Shannon to meet shortages in Dublin in order to satisfy English demand.

England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity.

But not an opportunity that Shannon was able to deliver, despite being given huge supports for decades.

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity.

But not an opportunity that Shannon was able to deliver, despite being given huge supports for decades.

Dublin, a legacy of English power supported by two hundred years of central government.

As a result, this small county of Dublin was able to grow disproportionately with the rest of the country.

Dublin, the epic-centre of the nation’s property crash driven by an over concentration of economic development in the capital.

Our country needs economic rebalancing, which could be done, if we moved our central government to Galway for the next 20 decades.

That could help turn the tide in the western half of the country against emigration and prevent Dublin’s growth from overheating again.

Otherwise the English transferring in Dublin Airport will be greeted by smelly unflushed toilets due to water shortages!

Jamie2k9

Brennans Row

Your going to a lot of trouble justifying SNN existence, since becoming free they have attracted Ryanair and Ryanair only. I cannot see any other carriers touching the airport again. I guess that will be put down the economic imbalance.

End line is Aer Lingus made an operational decision that would have the least financial impact on passengers

Ironically, it is this facility that Dublin got too, that is now undermining it, as Aer Lingus moves services from Shannon to meet shortages in Dublin in order to satisfy English demand.

9 days and perhaps if SNN didn't offer FR discounts on MAN just maybe SNN would have feed left. All of SNN's problems are self inflicted.

daa have nothing to do with SNN now and they will take full advantage, if Cork happened to get a TA connection it would destroy SNN!

JCX BXC

Where has this illogical hatrid of Shannon came about? From a little T/A stopover years ago? The stopover was probably the only thing that contradicted the economic focus on Dublin, but of course nothings ever good enough for the east of the country is it?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

As a result, this small county of Dublin was able to grow disproportionately with the rest of the country.

Yes, we've all heard these West of Ireland myths before. These same myths have done much damage to our national development, by preventing the framing of sensible national objectives and policies.

Brennans Row wrote: »

Dublin, the epic-centre of the nation’s property crash driven by an over concentration of economic development in the capital.

Ironically, no. What unhinged the property market were tax incentives aimed at driving economic development into the regions. So folk built houses that no-one will ever live in out Whest.

https://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/tag/rural-renewal-scheme/

<...>The Upper Shannon Rural Renewal Scheme (1999-2008) has 529 unfinished estates (Cavan 147, Longford 77, Leitrim 96, Roscommon 118, Sligo 91) – 18.6% of the 2,846 such estates in the country. Those 529 estates are made up of 14,814 units – 12.2% of 121,248 national total. In the 2006 census, these five counties had 5.9% of all households in the state. As our post yesterday showed, when standardised against number of households in a county, the five rural renewal counties clearly have the highest number of estates vis-a-vis existing household numbers.<..>

Carnacalla wrote: »

<...>The stopover was probably the only thing that contradicted the economic focus on Dublin<...>

The main beneficiaries of the stopover were Manchester and London, where they accepted all the business Shannon sent their way without complaint.

The stopover was the prime example of petty, back-stabbing regional policy. If Shannon couldn't get the business, then they'd be damned if anyone else in Ireland was going to get it.

What we're discovering now is the benefits that we can get when we actually play to our national strengths.

JCX BXC

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The main beneficiaries of the stopover were Manchester and London, where they accepted all the business Shannon sent their way without complaint.

The stopover was the prime example of petty, back-stabbing regional policy. If Shannon couldn't get the business, then they'd be damned if anyone else in Ireland was going to get it.

What we're discovering now is the benefits that we can get when we actually play to our national strengths.

I never heard of many passengers going to London and Manchester! Whats the point really, its just a longer and more painful stopover.

If you want to talk about backstabbing regional policy, then Id advise you to make a thread, as theres a hell of alot of it in Dublin, yet that's the one that won't be changed isnt it?

What gave DAA the right to use Aer Riantas funds to fund there T2 in Dublin?

We could of got quite a few benefits too if Aer Lingus had tried the Idea of transferring passengers from the UK through Shannon into the US, just because they can do this from Dublin is hardly that different?

I dont know where your unnatural hatrid for Shannon comes from, would you care to explain this? Is Shannon such a drain to the Irish economy? Should it be shut down? Even better, should we divide Ireland into Just the Cities of Cork and Dublin and leave the rest of the more rural Ireland suffer?

Jamie2k9

What gave DAA the right to use Aer Riantas funds to fund there T2 in Dublin?

Incorrect, it was financed by a loan which passengers are paying back.....

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Yes, we've all heard these West of Ireland myths before. These same myths have done much damage to our national development, by preventing the framing of sensible national objectives and policies.

Well, there was nothing mythical about the Great Famine of the 1840’s for example and the dire social economic consequences that lasted for many, many decades thereafter.

It is interesting to note counties like Mayo, Galway, Clare, Limerick, Kerry and Cork for example lost a high percentage of their population through emigration at that time, whereas Dublin cushioned by its central administrative role, grew steadily.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

What unhinged the property market were tax incentives aimed at driving economic development into the regions. So folk built houses that no-one will ever live in out Whest.

Rubbish! What sunk this country were the absolute losses incurred especially in Dublin.

For example, 18 months ago, a portfolio of 25 property investments, mainly in central Dublin worth €2,000 million was offered for sale on the international market at €140 million.

A loss of €1,860 million which would have been the equivalent to 18 times the size of Shannon Airport’s debt in 2012!

Brennans Row

UL Research to Help Reduce Engine Noise from Aircraft (University of Limerick)

Research carried out at University of Limerick (UL) will play a major part in reducing aircraft noise and emissions in the future.UL researchers Dr Trevor Young and Dr Aidan Cloonan, Irish Centre for Composites Research (IComp) and the Materials and Surface Science Institute (MSSI) at UL, are collaborating on a major European research programme, “Clean Sky Sustainable and Green Engines” (SAGE)integrated technology development programme, dedicated to demonstrating new engine technologies for a range of future civil aerospace applications. The European Commission’s Clean Sky research programme aims to "green" the aviation sector in line with Advisory Council for Aeronautics Research in Europe (ACARE) targets. These targets require the industry to cut carbon dioxide emissions by 50%, nitrogen oxide emissions by 80% and external noise by 50%

In a significant milestone for the SAGE programme, Bombardier Belfast has recently designed and manufactured a large one-piece composite engine nacelle component, namely a carbon fibre composite intake acoustic liner, which encases and attenuates the noise of large turbofan aircraft engines.

UL was responsible for material testing and analysis of candidate materials for the exposed inner surface of the acoustic liner barrel. This involved fatigue testing, accelerated rain droplet and particle erosion testing and accelerated weathering testing.

**************************************************************

Good to see other UL departments getting involved in aviation.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Carnacalla wrote: »

We could of got quite a few benefits too if Aer Lingus had tried the Idea of transferring passengers from the UK through Shannon into the US, just because they can do this from Dublin is hardly that different?

Yes, it's completely different. The reason they can do it from Dublin is because Dublin is capable of supporting so many routes to UK destinations. For Shannon to do the same, they'd need a similar array of routes, with similar frequency.

Brennans Row wrote: »

Well, there was nothing mythical about the Great Famine of the 1840’s for example and the dire social economic consequences that lasted for many, many decades thereafter.

There's quite a few myths about the Famine, too. In any event, it was really post 1922 that Dublin's relative share of national population started to increase markedly. 80% of people born in the 1930s emigrated in the 1950s; that was the result of the ruinous Pol Pot-style "ruralisation of industry" policies pursued by Governments led by the well-known Clare TD Eamon DeValera.

Of course, the echo of those same policies can be seen in the equally ruinous tax relief schemes, like the Upper Shannon Rural Renewal Scheme, that led to our last collapse.

lockman

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

B......
9 days and perhaps if SNN didn't offer FR discounts on MAN just maybe SNN would have feed left. All of SNN's problems are self inflicted.

daa have nothing to do with SNN now and they will take full advantage, if Cork happened to get a TA connection it would destroy SNN!

It appears that the current SNN management have learned nothing from previous management's mistakes. They were happy to get into bed with Ryanair again despite the recent past and appear to have scored a major own goal in the process. What were they thinking? The connectivity offered by the EIR service was great. Real pity it is gone.

highlydebased

lockman wrote: »

It appears that the current SNN management have learned nothing from previous management's mistakes. They were happy to get into bed with Ryanair again despite the recent past and appear to have scored a major own goal in the process. What were they thinking? The connectivity offered by the EIR service was great. Real pity it is gone.

Indeed the airport dropped in the estimations of many after that

Looks like Ryanair winter schedule announced very shortly, will see if any UK routes taken on though I'm not being too optimistic

JCX BXC

Speaking of the Ryanair winter schedule, some timetables have been uploaded for Shannon.

Paris Beauvais- 2x PW (3x this winter)
Berlin Schonefeld- 2x PW (the only bookable route - same frequency as this winter)
Kaunas- Not loaded yet
Krakow- 2x PW (unchanged)
Warsaw- 2x PW (unchanged)
Wroclaw- 2x PW (unchanged)
Fuerteventura- Not loaded yet (I suspect TFS will be flown instead of FUE)
Lanzarote- 1x PW (unchanged)
Tenerife- 1x PW (New! previously summer only)
London Gatwick - 6x PW (unchanged)
London Stansted- 14x PW (unchanged)
Manchester- Not loaded yet.

From what I see, I suspect TFS to replace FUE in the winter schedule. Probably the right decision. My basis for this is that the TFS route has the exact same times and days as the FUE route this year.

Kaunas, may be dropped. Unusual, considering its 2x PW this summer. Keep in mind this is not confirmed.

Paris goes down to 2pw. Disappointing, as I thought it did quite well.

Manchester is not comfirmed. If it is not launched, it may not be such a bad thing, as an airline would be stupid not to launch that route.

This schedule is not at all confirmed, and personally I'd expect at least Copenhagen to be added to that list, hopefully with 2 English routes and maybe a year round mainland Spain service.

Brennans Row

The Volga-Dnepr Airlines Ireland Ltd building has being reduced to rubble to make way for a commercial office development.

***************************************************************

There is also a planning application (15121) for the construction of a new single storey office extension, ancillary car parking including all associated site services, and minor internal hangar work space modifications at the existing hangar development.

Jobs wise this looks good for the former Aer Lingus hangar (i.e. additional 100 car parking spaces plus 94 canteen seats). Transaero recently received permission to use the hangar to break up of end-of-life aircraft for recycling.

highlydebased

Tenerife would surely be more popular off season

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

<...>Transaero recently received permission to use the hangar to break up of end-of-life aircraft for recycling.

I hope they know what they're doing, and that desperation isn't leading to short-term decisions carrying long-term consequences

http://www.euractiv.com/specialreport-resource-efficienc/old-airplanes-find-afterlife-rec-news-515957

Still, there are problems and dismantling aircraft is not entirely free of hazards. Batteries, asbestos, chemicals in fire-retardants, high-pressure oxygen systems and furnishing materials pose potential health and environmental risks if not properly handled – and the cost of doing so make it easier to dump components than recycle them. AFRA establishes guidelines for its members for the safe disposal of waste products that in many cases are not governed by law.

The EU, for example, does not set recycling mandates for aircraft the way it does for cars and ships.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus39s-recycling-master-plan-pamela-224015/

"There are currently no guidelines or advice related to the end-of-life of aircraft. More and more we see wild destruction of aircraft, with specialist companies that go to an airfield, crunch the aircraft for non-ferrous metals and then leave the hulk," says Malavallon.

Current practices allow around 60% of the aircraft's weight to be recovered, and only 50% of this can be recycled, says Malavallon. "This means only 30% of the total is recycled."

The benefit of undertaking a more thorough, "smart dismantling" process is that up to 70-80% of the scrap by weight is recovered for reuse.

I'd wonder where the 20-30% that can't be recycled goes (even using "smart dismantling"). Dismantle just four or five, and you're effectively left with a pile of irrecoverable waste equivalent to the weight of a whole airplane.

JCX BXC

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

9 days and perhaps if SNN didn't offer FR discounts on MAN just maybe SNN would have feed left. All of SNN's problems are self inflicted.

Shannon offered Ryanair a discount on MAN? First I've heard of it. It would be extreme stupidity if they did, and if it was that simple, they should be hung.

Of course, you have other points to consider.

1.Ryanair could be paying full fees on that route. If they are, its not like Shannon (or any other airport) can say no, we are not letting you fly this route. Ryanair can fly any route they want from any irish airport to the EU as long as their 737's can do it.

2. Ryanair could have threatened Shannon. They could have told them that unless you offer us a discount on the Manchester route, we will pull all our new routes. What can the airport do in that situation?

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I hope they know what they're doing, and that desperation isn't leading to short-term decisions carrying long-term consequences.

Desperation????

Recycling / Parting Out of old aircraft was identified in the 2012 Business Development Task Force Final Report as a lucrative aviation enterprise to get into.

See posts 338, 430 and 435.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'd wonder where the 20-30% that can't be recycled goes (even using "smart dismantling"). Dismantle just four or five, and you're effectively left with a pile of irrecoverable waste equivalent to the weight of a whole airplane.

Why would you doubt Transaero’s competence to do this work professionally since all waste material will be disposed to authorised waste disposal facilities, like the €600 million Poolbeg incinerator.

highlydebased

Carnacalla wrote: »

Speaking of the Ryanair winter schedule, some timetables have been uploaded for Shannon.

Paris Beauvais- 2x PW (3x this winter)
Berlin Schonefeld- 2x PW (the only bookable route - same frequency as this winter)
Kaunas- Not loaded yet
Krakow- 2x PW (unchanged)
Warsaw- 2x PW (unchanged)
Wroclaw- 2x PW (unchanged)
Fuerteventura- Not loaded yet (I suspect TFS will be flown instead of FUE)
Lanzarote- 1x PW (unchanged)
Tenerife- 1x PW (New! previously summer only)
London Gatwick - 6x PW (unchanged)
London Stansted- 14x PW (unchanged)
Manchester- Not loaded yet.

From what I see, I suspect TFS to replace FUE in the winter schedule. Probably the right decision. My basis for this is that the TFS route has the exact same times and days as the FUE route this year.

Kaunas, may be dropped. Unusual, considering its 2x PW this summer. Keep in mind this is not confirmed.

Paris goes down to 2pw. Disappointing, as I thought it did quite well.

Manchester is not comfirmed. If it is not launched, it may not be such a bad thing, as an airline would be stupid not to launch that route.

This schedule is not at all confirmed, and personally I'd expect at least Copenhagen to be added to that list, hopefully with 2 English routes and maybe a year round mainland Spain service.

Nothing at all visible now so they know you're watching :P

JCX BXC

highlydebased wrote: »

Nothing at all visible now so they know you're watching :P

Its strange, they must be doing alot of playing with the schedules as even the Berlin routes are no longer bookable!

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

Desperation????

Recycling / Parting Out of old aircraft was identified in the 2012 Business Development Task Force Final Report as a lucrative aviation enterprise to get into.

See posts 338, 430 and 435.

Yeah, yeah. I know that. That's the crowd that waffled about Shannon being open on Christmas Day "as befits its status as a common diversion airport". Their depth of analysis was stunning.

Like I said, I hope desperation isn't making people accept whatever work they can get in the short run, at the expense of the long run.

Brennans Row wrote: »

Why would you doubt Transaero’s competence to do this work professionally since all waste material will be disposed to authorised waste disposal facilities, like the €600 million Poolbeg incinerator.

Oh, I'm sure Transaero have the competence to do the work professionally. I'm sure they'll obey all planning requirements.

My doubt is around the extent to which the local authority will apply requirements and police them, in the context where the EU seem to have no rules. I believe a lot of this kind of work is done in Africa, in the expectation that local regulatory systems will be less rigorous than in the developed world.

Can the remaining 20-30% of the aircraft's mass be incinerated safely? Is that something you know, or just something you're assuming because you don't want to subject the matter to critical examination?

Jamie2k9

Carnacalla wrote: »

Shannon offered Ryanair a discount on MAN? First I've heard of it. It would be extreme stupidity if they did, and if it was that simple, they should be hung.

Of course, you have other points to consider.

1.Ryanair could be paying full fees on that route. If they are, its not like Shannon (or any other airport) can say no, we are not letting you fly this route. Ryanair can fly any route they want from any irish airport to the EU as long as their 737's can do it.

2. Ryanair could have threatened Shannon. They could have told them that unless you offer us a discount on the Manchester route, we will pull all our new routes. What can the airport do in that situation?

Well SNN have not come out and said however there response to EIR leaving was airlines come and go. They could easily say if FR were offered a discount or not.

Silence speaks volumes in my experience, a bit like SNN not saying how much discounts FR were offered to start the other routes but then MOL dropped the bomb shell weeks lather saying €1 per passenger!

JCX BXC

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well SNN have not come out and said however there response to EIR leaving was airlines come and go. They could easily say if FR were offered a discount or not.

Silence speaks volumes in my experience, a bit like SNN not saying how much discounts FR were offered to start the other routes but then MOL dropped the bomb shell weeks lather saying €1 per passenger!

So you said that Shannon offered FR a discount for MAN based on an assumption?

I dont recall Shannon talking to the media about anything except for their delight at news services and in relation to FOSA.

They dont comment on lost services, airline charges, potential routes and almost anything else.

JCX BXC

highlydebased wrote: »

Nothing at all visible now so they know you're watching :P

Visable again now. Same as yesterday.

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Their depth of analysis was stunning.

I share your stunning praise of that report too.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Oh, I'm sure Transaero have the competence to do the work professionally. I'm sure they'll obey all planning requirements.

My doubt is around the extent to which the local authority will apply requirements and police them, in the context where the EU seem to have no rules. I believe a lot of this kind of work is done in Africa, in the expectation that local regulatory systems will be less rigorous than in the developed world.

Can the remaining 20-30% of the aircraft's mass be incinerated safely? Is that something you know, or just something you're assuming because you don't want to subject the matter to critical examination?

Jayus, I hope the recycling of aircraft in Shannon won’t keep you awake at night.

Maybe you could do some critical examination on the environmental impacts in the production of the aircraft too?

Next time, you are flying from Shannon do have a look out the window at the red mountain growing steadily on the Limerick side of the estuary.

It is an unavoidable refinery waste product from the production of alumina at the Aughinish plant and as you know aluminium is a material needed in the building of aircraft.

To put things into perspective we are talking about 2 million tonnes of alumina a year is produced there.

The good news is that UL are doing their own critical examination on how to turn that refinery waste into new raw materials for other products.

Then there is the high levels of aviation fuel burnt during the 85,000 take-offs at Dublin Airport last year.

Maybe you could you enlighten us by contacting the Poolbeg incinerator and Dublin Airport to determine which of the two would contribute the most in terms of polluting the air in Dublin.

highlydebased

Wouldn't really take what's up there at the moment as gospel anyway until it's "launched" would certainly expect things to change many times more

JCX BXC

highlydebased wrote: »

Wouldn't really take what's up there at the moment as gospel anyway until it's "launched" would certainly expect things to change many times more

Neither would I, but someone on PPRuNe seems to say that the schedule I quoted is accurate. They say Kaunas is gone, so is FUE and TFS is taking over. No mention of Manchester though...

highlydebased

My money's on them just reading this thread tbh!