SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

The Cush

Indo article today - http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/esb-broadband-wont-improve-rural-experience-much-29983827.html

Contrary to all the recent coverage indicating such an eventuality, there is a very slim chance of rural businesses receiving ESB-based fibre broadband any time soon.

Why? Because the ESB and its partner telecoms network (a multi-platform telecoms firm yet to be announced) aren't planning it. In fact, it's highly unlikely that the new network will get anywhere near the countryside: it is being geared up for "selected urban areas" and "will be utilised where it is practical to do so".

This isn't the whisper of any insider: it's what the ESB has written down in black and white on its tender contract.

"The core activity will be the deployment of Fibre-To-The-Building to individual homes or premises in Ireland, in selected urban areas, using the ESB electricity overhead and underground infrastructure," says the ESB broadband document.

"Phase 1 is expected to ... focus on urban and semi-urban conurbations outside of Dublin city. It is anticipated that in the deployment of the network, this electricity infrastructure will be utilised where and to the extent it is practical to do so."

In other words, any ESB-related fibre broadband will most likely simply be in areas that already have – or are scheduled for – high-speed broadband deployment already.

According to the ESB itself, the initial network rollout is planned to reach around 450,000 buildings. That's around a quarter of the country's homes and businesses. Why so limited? Partly because the ESB has about 1,300km of fibre-optic cable in Ireland, compared to around 12,000km held by Eircom. In these terms alone, it's easy to see the geographical limits of any ESB-based network.

To reach into rural networks would require far, far more cable: many rural areas are defined by their spaced-out housing, with no more than a handful of buildings per kilometre. In telecoms circles, this is regarded as simply uneconomic. (Or, in the words of the ESB tender, it is not "practical".)


This is probably why the ESB has indicated that it will only look at towns of at least 4,000 buildings for new broadband services.

Hank Scorpio

Well that's not good news

hallo dare

Aw man!!!

bealtine

The Cush wrote: »

Indo article today - http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/esb-broadband-wont-improve-rural-experience-much-29983827.html

This has been well flagged up on many occasions now...

The Cush

bealtine wrote: »

This has been well flagged up on many occasions now...

but now it comes from the ESB tender documents, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

Nonoperational

Not surprising at all unfortunately.

MajesticDonkey

The government needs to get its arse in gear regarding this.

First we had Fine Gael's "Broadband 21" project in 2009, which was going to invest €2.5bn in developing a 50-100 "megabyte" (apparently, not "megabit") fibre network which would be available to 90% of the population by the end of 2013. Nothing since.

In 2010, there was Labour's "Plan for a Digital Ireland", which was going to invest €2bn, which would, quote, "connect the vast majority of the population to fibre optic cables which will allow speeds 100 Mpb/s and greater. The vast majority of homes would be directly connected utilising Fibre to the Home - FTTH, with a wireless solution only being offered in remote areas". Nothing since.

If this €4.5bn, or anything close to it, was invested when it was supposed to be, we would have one of the best fibre internet networks in the world now. It's just sickening.

Yes, I agree that there must be a trade off between rural, one-off dwellings and urban or semi-urban towns and villages as regards available services, but some people do not have a choice about where they live. I don't accept that it's just too expensive to connect one-off houses. All that's needed is for the state to invest the money in it - a once-off investment - instead of making silly election promises to cover the country with good BB (like Labour in 2010) and then not even mentioning then after being elected. Don't make a promise about it - just go and do it!

norrie rugger

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

The government needs to get its arse in gear regarding this.

First we had Fine Gael's "Broadband 21" project in 2009, which was going to invest €2.5bn in developing a 50-100 "megabyte" (apparently, not "megabit") fibre network which would be available to 90% of the population by the end of 2013. Nothing since.

In 2010, there was Labour's "Plan for a Digital Ireland", which was going to invest €2bn, which would, quote, "connect the vast majority of the population to fibre optic cables which will allow speeds 100 Mpb/s and greater. The vast majority of homes would be directly connected utilising Fibre to the Home - FTTH, with a wireless solution only being offered in remote areas". Nothing since.

If this €4.5bn, or anything close to it, was invested when it was supposed to be, we would have one of the best fibre internet networks in the world now. It's just sickening.

Yes, I agree that there must be a trade off between rural, one-off dwellings and urban or semi-urban towns and villages as regards available services, but some people do not have a choice about where they live. I don't accept that it's just too expensive to connect one-off houses. All that's needed is for the state to invest the money in it - a once-off investment - instead of making silly election promises to cover the country with good BB (like Labour in 2010) and then not even mentioning then after being elected. Don't make a promise about it - just go and do it!

From then on, much like current utilities, when you build your one off house, you pay for the connection and lay down your own fibre optic.

It can be budgeted into the house construction cost

garroff

Just rang my local Labour TD. Will let you know what response I get.
If the Indo is correct....this is awful news.....ok to erect pylons in rural to supply electricity to towns and cities but not ok to hang BB on them.

MajesticDonkey

norrie rugger wrote: »

From then on, much like current utilities, when you build your one off house, you pay for the connection and lay down your own fibre optic.

It can be budgeted into the house construction cost

Exactly. I would have no problem paying to get fibre connected, €1000 or whatever it is.

Even right now with my existing house, I would have no problem paying €1000 to get fibre connected. All I have at the moment is 2Mb wireless, which costs €35/month. The max I could get is 5Mb which would cost me €55/month. My connection is essentially unusable at night when everyone is on it.

I live about 7 miles from the nearest fibre-enabled town (Mitchelstown, eFibre) and about 10 miles from another fibre-connected town (Cahir, UPC). The only possible hope I can have at the moment is that this ESB network will provide a good backbone which my wireless ISP (based in Cahir) can use, which will somewhat improve my connection, but my internet will still have to travel wirelessly over the 10 miles to and from Cahir.

The Cush

From the Indo - http://www.independent.ie/tablet/technology/vodafone-in-talks-with-esb-over-400m-fibre-broadband-network-29996678.html

VODAFONE has entered into exclusive negotiations with the ESB for the rollout of a new €400m fibre broadband network to 450,000 Irish homes and businesses.

...

"ESB has entered into exclusive negotiations with Vodafone Ireland as the preferred bidder to form a Joint Venture Company, which will roll out fibre to homes and businesses across Ireland," a Vodafone spokesman told the Irish Independent.

The new network will be based outside Dublin and concentrated in towns of at least 4,000 premises.

...

It is not yet clear whether a new fibre partnership between the ESB and Vodafone will allow other telecoms operators to gain access to ESB's network. However, the ESB has stipulated that it hopes to engage in a phased rollout, with the first section extending to 1,300km of fibre.

"The core activity will be the deployment of Fibre-To-The-Building to individual homes or premises in Ireland, in selected urban areas, using the ESB electricity overhead and underground infrastructure," said the ESB tender document.

"Phase 1 is expected to focus on urban and semi-urban conurbations outside of Dublin city. It is anticipated that in the deployment of the network, this electricity infrastructure will be utilised where and to the extent it is practical to do so."

garroff

Does not look good for majority of rural customers. Still awaiting clarification from local TD.

Quin_Dub

The Cush wrote: »

The new network will be based outside Dublin and concentrated in towns of at least 4,000 premises.[/url]

Seriously though - How many "towns" have 4000 premises??

List of Towns by Population

This is a list of towns/cities by population - Not sure of a good rule of thumb for converting population to number of premises , but I'd be fairly comfortable saying that virtually nothing outside of the top dozen or so listed here would have 4k premises..

So - ESB is just another provider offering the same thing to the same people....

Extremely disappointing and a huge missed opportunity for them (and the country to be honest)

MajesticDonkey

I emailed Minister Rabbitte last week - got this reply yesterday...

I refer to your recent email to me concerning the availability of high speed broadband services in your area.

Since market liberalisation in 1999, broadband services are delivered in the first instance through private sector operators. The provision of telecommunications services, including broadband services, is primarily a matter for the service providers concerned who operate in a fully liberalised market, regulated by the independent regulator, the Commission for Communications Regulation (ComReg). The market has developed into a well-regulated market, supporting a multiplicity of commercial operators, providing services over a diverse range of technology platforms. Details of broadband services available in each County can be found on a number of websites, including ComReg’s website at www.callcosts.ie as well as the websites of individual commercial operators.

Decisions by private operators, including Eircom, relating to investment in infrastructure to provide broadband services are taken purely on commercial grounds, having regard to the cost of service provision and the anticipated revenue returns from any such investment. You will appreciate therefore, that I do not have a statutory authority to direct commercial companies in this regard.
The Government’s National Broadband Plan, which I published in August 2012, aims to radically change the broadband landscape in Ireland by ensuring that high speed broadband is available to all citizens and businesses. This will be achieved by providing:
a policy and regulatory framework that assists in accelerating and incentivising commercial investment, and

a State-led investment for areas where it is not commercial for the market to invest.

During the preparation of Ireland’s National Broadband Plan, the commercial market operators indicated that they expect to provide 70Mbps to 100Mbps services to 50% of the population by 2015. Since the publication of the Plan, there is evidence that industry is investing beyond the targets to which they committed in the Plan with
investment underway in both fixed line and mobile high speed broadband services, particularly in urban and semi-urban areas.
The ESB Electronic Communications Bill, which I introduced recently, is a further step in promoting investment in competitively priced high speed broadband. The Bill will, when enacted, enable the ESB to utilise its electricity distribution network to provide telecommunications services in the Irish market.
In tandem with these developments, intensive work is underway in my Department to progress a State-led investment to secure the countrywide introduction of next generation broadband access. In order to progress the State-led investment for areas where it is not commercial for the market to invest, a full procurement process must be designed and EU State Aids approval must be obtained.
My Department is engaged in a comprehensive mapping exercise of the current and anticipated investment by the commercial sector over the coming years, the results of which will inform the areas that need to be targeted in the State-led investment as envisaged in the National Broadband Plan.
Intensive technical, financial and legal preparations, including stakeholder engagement, are ongoing. All relevant matters, including issues related to pricing, will be considered as the process of the detailed design of the intervention develops. The procurement process for the approved intervention will be carried out in accordance with EU and Irish procurement rules and it is expected that it will be launched in 2014.
Through the implementation of the National Broadband Plan, we are committed to increasing the availability of next generation speeds significantly, with a view to ensuring that all citizens and businesses can participate fully in a digitally enabled society.


Yours sincerely,


Pat Rabbitte T.D.
Minister for Communications, Energy & Natural Resources

bk

garroff wrote: »

Does not look good for majority of rural customers. Still awaiting clarification from local TD.

Why do you think you local TD will know anything about this?

This is a commercial venture and the information they share with the government will be restricted and likely only available to key people in Department of Communication, etc.

Frankly some of the people posting on this forum, know far more about what is going on then your local TD will ever. I've been saying all along exactly what the above article says. Don't know why people wouldn't believe it.

garroff

BK....I hate to say it....you were right.....well done.
Rural BB users.....get lost....that's the message.

Roll on 23 May....local and European Elections.

ED E

garroff wrote: »

BK....I hate to say it....you were right.....well done.
Rural BB users.....get lost....that's the message.

Roll on 23 May....local and European Elections.

Like that'll change anything. Even if we had a minister for communications who didnt have his head up his arse Comreg and the ISPs would still be the same. NBS would still be a joke. 4G would still be crippled.

If you're rural and want decent BB, start a community BB scheme. Thats the only thing that'll happen any time soon.

Chris The Hacker

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Seriously though - How many "towns" have 4000 premises??

List of Towns by Population

This is a list of towns/cities by population - Not sure of a good rule of thumb for converting population to number of premises , but I'd be fairly comfortable saying that virtually nothing outside of the top dozen or so listed here would have 4k premises

For the past few weeks I've been reading the rollout thread and I stumbled upon this last night.

So, bk reckons there's 2,000,000 premises in Ireland. The population is 4,600,000. That's a ratio of 46:20 or 23:10 or 2.3:1

Or you can divide 2,000,000 into 4,600,000 = 2.3

So, for every 1 premise, you have 2.3 people.

Divide a town's population by 2.3 and you'll get a rough idea of how many premises are there.

Looking at the list of towns, the first 51 towns have roughly 4,000 premises.

bk

Chris The Hacker, excellent work, however per the 2011 CSO stats, there is an average of 2.7 people per household. So that would get the top 41 towns on the list.

However I wouldn't take that as gospel, obviously the ESB will take into account where their existing fibre backbone network runs.

So some smaller towns might end up getting serviced, while some larger towns might not.

MajesticDonkey

ED E wrote: »

If you're rural and want decent BB, start a community BB scheme. Thats the only thing that'll happen any time soon.

How would one go about this?

Chris The Hacker

bk wrote: »

Chris The Hacker, excellent work, however per the 2011 CSO stats, there is an average of 2.7 people per household. So that would get the top 41 towns on the list.

However I wouldn't take that as gospel, obviously the ESB will take into account where their existing fibre backbone network runs.

So some smaller towns might end up getting serviced, while some larger towns might not.

Yeah, but we're not talking about households, we're talking about premises. When we're not at home, we're in work, which distributes the population from 2.7 to 2.3.

Gonzo

they are only supplying broadband to areas with 4,000 premises and upwards, are they having a laugh? There's barely 2 towns per county with that amount of premises. So much for finally supplying broadband where it is really needed. The same people get even more choice and the rest of us are left out yet again...

Cheerful Spring

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

I emailed Minister Rabbitte last week - got this reply yesterday...

He's obviously referring to Eircom here.

During the preparation of Ireland’s National Broadband Plan, the commercial market operators indicated that they expect to provide 70Mbps to 100Mbps services to 50% of the population by 2015.

Eircom if they're telling the truth are ahead of schedule and could achieve 50% by the summer of 2014 (1 million homes and businesses approximately)

That's leaves just 20% to make 70% which is 1.4 million

400,000 so to get done from the summer of 2014 to July 2016. And i see no reason to why the rollout would slowdown and be ahead of schedule also?

MajesticDonkey

Yes, I agree, and it's good to see Eircom being reasonably pro-active with all this. I just wish the government would pump money into rolling out a fibre infrastructure to EVERY home, and then leasing that infrastructure to all the national ISPs, thus keeping the "liberal market".

I fear it'll be at least 10 years before I even get a reliable DSL connection, let alone fibre. I am seriously considering getting a community BB scheme going, or at least looking into it for the moment. This is a rather fascinating story: http://www.forbes.com/sites/alisoncoleman/2014/02/06/europes-fastest-rural-broadband-network-british-farmers-are-digging-it/

ED E

VDSL rollout has actually gone really well. It took off more than expected and KNN are having a hard time keeping up with orders.

It will naturally slow down a bit soon enough as the "easy" to do cabs are all done. That leaves the more dispersed cabs and underground cabs which are slower or provide less fibre enabled premises per cab done.

All around its very positive though. Nothing at all to do with Rabbite.

Chris The Hacker

ESB in talks with Vodafone regarding €400m broadband deal

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/35762-esb-in-talks-with-vodafone/

The ESB looks close to partnering with telecoms company Vodafone Ireland to roll out a fibre broadband service across Ireland to the tune of €400m, as part of the Irish Government’s National Broadband Plan.

The ESB had recently been in discussions with a number of broadband providers and will provide its broadband service through the electricity poles that crisscross the country.

It was believed that fellow telecoms company BT had been Vodafone’s biggest competitor in the competition but for unknown reasons the company decided to pull itself out of the running.

Vodafone confirmed negotiations are at an advanced stage.

“ESB has entered into exclusive negotiations with Vodafone Ireland as the preferred bidder to form a joint venture company which will roll out fibre to homes and businesses across Ireland.”

As part of the National Broadband Plan, the ESB has ambitions to bring broadband to more than 500,000 homes and has set itself a target to have a national minimum broadband speed of 30Mbps for every home by 2015.

It is understood any plans for ESB to enter the broadband market will need to be looked over by the Competition Authority and will no doubt be a major challenge to Eircom and UPC’s more established networks.

garroff

interesting..................

hallo dare

Chris The Hacker wrote: »

ESB in talks with Vodafone regarding €400m broadband deal

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/35762-esb-in-talks-with-vodafone/

30mb for "every" home, or just the 500,000 it talks about?

norrie rugger

Well that's the question isn't it?

or is it every home (every = 80-85% coverage)

bk

hallo dare wrote: »

30mb for "every" home, or just the 500,000 it talks about?

I believe they are conflating two different things.

The 500,000 homes that get ESB FTTH should be easily capable of 150mb/s

The National Broadband Plan is a government plan to have every home in Ireland having at least 30mb/s by 2015:

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/Next+Generation+Broadband/

It is a good idea, but there is little reality or money behind the government NBP.

What this article is saying is that the ESB FTTH rollout will help towards achieving the NBP. Don't read anything more into this.