doonbeg goes into receivership.

scrubber72

http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/receivers-appointed-to-doonbeg-lodge-and-golf-club-619664.html

charlieIRL

Just read that too. Thankfully no jobs lost yet and all staying open for now

FixdePitchmark

Now that is a big one gone down.

sydneybound

It's a place like this and somewhere like the Slieve Russell I really hope don't go down the pan. Both established for a number of a years. These type of course would be a huge loss to Irish golf.

bailey99

sydneybound wrote: »

These type of course would be a huge loss to Irish golf.

How do you figure that out??? Played Doonbeg and wouldn't have it in the top 20 courses in the country to be honest.

14handicap

I cant understand how a golf course that charges 140 a round and is well booked up most of the time can lose money?
My guess is that it will be snapped up by some wealthy Chinese or American.

Dbu

charlieIRL wrote: »

Just read that too. Thankfully no jobs lost yet and all staying open for now

Yes Charlie, good about the jobs, but the all the suppliers that were owed money have now lost out on any payments. Im not a supplier by the way, just an observation

sydneybound

bailey99 wrote: »

How do you figure that out??? Played Doonbeg and wouldn't have it in the top 20 courses in the country to be honest.

So are you telling me if this course went bust and went back to normal farmland it woundn't be a loss to Irish golf?

http://www.golfbusinessnews.com/news/courses/doonbeg-ranked-in-worlds-top-100-courses/

Kevinmarkham

bailey99 wrote: »

How do you figure that out??? Played Doonbeg and wouldn't have it in the top 20 courses in the country to be honest.

From a tourism point of view it would be a huge loss. It attracts large numbers of Americans to Ireland - and both Americans and golfers spend more than the average tourist in this country. There are plenty of other links courses around, but The Lodge is ranked as one of the best golf resorts in the world and therefore attracts big spenders.

I agree that their green fees are too high, but I have seen plenty of posts from Americans planning an Irish trip where green fees are irrelevant. Pay €3,000 for flights and accommodation, then the difference between €80 and €180 green fee is negligible.

thewobbler

I've never visited Doonbeg, but it strikes me as sharing similar problems with Lough Erne.

1. It's in the back end of beyond, and nowhere near a population centre of any significance.
2. It's priced for the tourism market rather than the local market, meaning it's a one-off treat rather than a repeat business model.
3. It's a long jaunt from the main tourism entry points, which puts it head-to-head with better destinations of a similar trip (Clare vs Kerry, Fermanagh vs Donegal).
4. The lack of a quality golf course on the doorstep makes it an awkward society trip

I'm sure it's a lovely course, but the perceived USPs that allowed it to be built would be more closely analysed in the post-Celtic Tiger era.

Miley Byrne

thewobbler wrote: »

The lack of a quality golf course on the doorstep makes it an awkward society trip

Sorry wobbler, what do you mean by this? Do you mean the lack of another quality course or just that it's not a quality course in itself?

Just on that list of top 100 courses. 9 irish courses on it and Waterville not among them. Shows how seriously these should be taken.

superhooper

Dbu wrote: »

Yes Charlie, good about the jobs, but the all the suppliers that were owed money have now lost out on any payments. Im not a supplier by the way, just an observation

Its not in liquidation therefore it will continue in business quite normally albeit with a receiver signing the cheques for suppliers,staff etc.

spacecoyote

thewobbler wrote: »

I've never visited Doonbeg, but it strikes me as sharing similar problems with Lough Erne.

1. It's in the back end of beyond, and nowhere near a population centre of any significance.
2. It's priced for the tourism marketi rather than the local market, meaning it's a one-off treat rather than a repeat business model.
3. It's a long jaunt from the main tourism entry points, which puts it head-to-head with better destinations of a similar trip (Clare vs Kerry, Fermanagh vs Donegal).
4. The lack of a quality golf course on the doorstep makes it an awkward society trip

I'm sure it's a lovely course, but the perceived USPs that allowed it to be built would be more closely analysed in the post-Celtic Tiger era.

Its not actually that isolated though. It's very close to lahinch so you do have other courses of a high quality in close enough proximity & a reasonable sized town which is pretty easily accessible.

You are right though that it is reliant on tourist trade which is going to be seasonal & the green fees could be offputting to average Joe Irish golfer.

superhooper

denisoc16 wrote: »

Sorry wobbler, what do you mean by this? Do you mean the lack of another quality course or just that it's not a quality course in itself?

Just on that list of top 100 courses. 9 irish courses on it and Waterville not among them. Shows how seriously these should be taken.

Would have thought Lahinch would be the obvious doorstep course and its a links course which is the market Doonbeg is in. Bally B not too far away on the ferry while Shannon is an hour away.

I could see this as an issue for the likes of The Old Head as Cork as no links courses nearby which will provide other courses for the mostly American visitor.

A.Partridge

thewobbler wrote: »

I've never visited Doonbeg, but it strikes me as sharing similar problems with Lough Erne.

1. It's in the back end of beyond, and nowhere near a population centre of any significance.
2. It's priced for the tourism market rather than the local market, meaning it's a one-off treat rather than a repeat business model.
3. It's a long jaunt from the main tourism entry points, which puts it head-to-head with better destinations of a similar trip (Clare vs Kerry, Fermanagh vs Donegal).
4. The lack of a quality golf course on the doorstep makes it an awkward society trip

I'm sure it's a lovely course, but the perceived USPs that allowed it to be built would be more closely analysed in the post-Celtic Tiger era.

Lahinch is just 20 mins away?

To add to that it is a much easier drive from Limerick to Doonbeg than say Tralee or Killarney to most of the outlying courses such as Waterville, Dooks etc.

Miley Byrne

superhooper wrote: »

Would have thought Lahinch would be the obvious doorstep course and its a links course which is the market Doonbeg is in. Bally B not too far away on the ferry while Shannon is an hour away.

I could see this as an issue for the likes of The Old Head as Cork as no links courses nearby which will provide other courses for the mostly American visitor.

Ya that's what I was thinking. Lahinch is only up the road & Tralee and Ballybunion would both be within 90 minutes approx I'd guess.

shamco

thewobbler wrote: »

I've never visited Doonbeg, but it strikes me as sharing similar problems with Lough Erne.

1. It's in the back end of beyond, and nowhere near a population centre of any significance.
2. It's priced for the tourism market rather than the local market, meaning it's a one-off treat rather than a repeat business model.
3. It's a long jaunt from the main tourism entry points, which puts it head-to-head with better destinations of a similar trip (Clare vs Kerry, Fermanagh vs Donegal).
4. The lack of a quality golf course on the doorstep makes it an awkward society trip

I'm sure it's a lovely course, but the perceived USPs that allowed it to be built would be more closely analysed in the post-Celtic Tiger era.

Doonbeg is only 30min from Ballybunion and one hour from Tralee so no mor "back of beyonds" than Kerry

thewobbler

denisoc16 wrote: »

Ya that's what I was thinking. Lahinch is only up the road & Tralee and Ballybunion would both be within 90 minutes approx I'd guess.

Proximity is a relative value it seems.

Locals might know better, but Google makes it 32 mins to Lahinch.

This is nothing to an American (hey, it's only next door), but for many society golfers (especially those whose weekends away are 30% upwards about the nights out) 32 mins is more than enough to think "frig that, let's find somewhere to stay in Lahinch instead, park the car once, and play both courses there".

Up north, Lough Erne is probably only 30 mins from Slieve Russell or Farnham, and less than an hour from Murvagh. But it's a lifetime if you're on the beer sweats. Paying a premium to stay in Erne/Doonbeg doesn't stack up for these societies.

If you can fill your boots all year around with Americans, then I guess this isn't a concern. By the looks of things, they can't do that though.

Miley Byrne

I hear you, but if you are travelling from Dublin to west Clare for a golf trip and are willing to shell out the greenfees needed in Lahinch & Doonbeg then a 30 minute drive isn't a big deal IMO. I would prefer to travel to Doonbeg from Lahinch than play the 2nd course in Lahinch anyway.

Benny Cake

Hard to have sympathy for a place that charges €125 for a round of golf. If they halved their prices they'd quadruple their business.

Milkers

shamco wrote: »

Doonbeg is only 30min from Ballybunion and one hour from Tralee so no mor "back of beyonds" than Kerry

We don't all have helicopters.

shamco

Milkers wrote: »

We don't all have helicopters.

No need for a helicopter. There is a ferry that takes only 15min

thewobbler

shamco wrote: »

No need for a helicopter. There is a ferry that takes only 15min

You still have to get to it, and get from there to Ballybunion. Even with military precision I doubt you could pull a society out of Doonbeg and arrive in Ballybunion in less than an hour.

Milkers

thewobbler wrote: »

You still have to get to it, and get from there to Ballybunion. Even with military precision I doubt you could pull a society out of Doonbeg and arrive in Ballybunion in less than an hour.

Considering there's a 30 minute drive either side of the ferry I'd say that's a safe bet. Hour and a half would be pushing it.

Dbu

superhooper wrote: »

Its not in liquidation therefore it will continue in business quite normally albeit with a receiver signing the cheques for suppliers,staff etc.

I have never been paid by a receiver...in my experience once a receiver is appointed the current suppliers are shafted more or less. Any money in the company is paid to the receiver for his fees and the revenue get the rest (if there is any left after the receiver)
Thats my experience anyway

Sorry mods, bit off topic

PARlance

Dbu wrote: »

I have never been paid by a receiver...in my experience once a receiver is appointed the current suppliers are shafted more or less. Any money in the company is paid to the receiver for his fees and the revenue get the rest (if there is any left after the receiver)
Thats my experience anyway

Sorry mods, bit off topic

A fine line between receivership and liquidation alright, technically you should be getting paid (or maybe working with the receiver to agree a write down as some sort of way forward) from the receiver but many receivership's go straight into liquidation after the receiver has failed in his attempt.

If a receiver didn't pay you and the company successfully exited receivership then you are still owed the money and could (continue) to pursue legal means of getting it.
With a liquidation, it's terminal, the company has gone bust and will never return.
I.e A receiver should be working with the Revenue to come up with a payment plan to payment any arrears. In a liquidation, the revenue just get the money as a priority. Which should really be looked at imo, Liquidations can cause further liquidations as suppliers tend to get nothing, instead of handing it over to the Revenue they should be giving it to the suppliers and it may mean that 10,15,20 other businesses/suppliers stand a chance of survival.

A bit off topic but it's important that people know that there's still a chance for Doonbeg to turn it around.

FixdePitchmark

Benny Cake wrote: »

Hard to have sympathy for a place that charges €125 for a round of golf. If they halved their prices they'd quadruple their business.

From the off we were given the Idea that it was luxurious and - whilst not saying it, they were sort of saying this is for rich foreigners.

Not targeting the Irish Market at all, is a dangerous territory - particularly if most Irish people would have more interest in playing Lahinch if they go to Clare.

So if they didn't target the Irish golf public - it is understandable if people are not over concerned about the place - the feeling was mutual.

Hopefully the place opens up a bit and targets Irish golfers more - You get the sense the likes of Old Head and that have - they know the Irish Tourism market and the luxury golf market is a very fickle thing.

shamco

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

From the off we were given the Idea that it was luxurious and - whilst not saying it, they were sort of saying this is for rich foreigners.

Not targeting the Irish Market at all, is a dangerous territory - particularly if most Irish people would have more interest in playing Lahinch if they go to Clare.

So if they didn't target the Irish golf public - it is understandable if people are not over concerned about the place - the feeling was mutual.

Hopefully the place opens up a bit and targets Irish golfers more - You get the sense the likes of Old Head and that have - they know the Irish Tourism market and the luxury golf market is a very fickle thing.

Agreed but having said that none of the links in the southwest are cheap

FixdePitchmark

shamco wrote: »

Agreed but having said that none of the links in the southwest are cheap

Yes - most are not cheap - but most aren't carrying on as if they are Augusta National - your in the West coast of Clare lads - relax.

Put a bit of Planxty on and hit the local.

superhooper

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

From the off we were given the Idea that it was luxurious and - whilst not saying it, they were sort of saying this is for rich foreigners.

Not targeting the Irish Market at all, is a dangerous territory - particularly if most Irish people would have more interest in playing Lahinch if they go to Clare.

So if they didn't target the Irish golf public - it is understandable if people are not over concerned about the place - the feeling was mutual.

Hopefully the place opens up a bit and targets Irish golfers more - You get the sense the likes of Old Head and that have - they know the Irish Tourism market and the luxury golf market is a very fickle thing.

Perhaps in the early days this was the case but over the last few months I kept hearing their ads and competitions on radio. Just looked at their prices for the summer and €175 would be out of my league and I'd imagine most Irish though the April prices at €65 would warrant thinking about and I'm sure a society would get in cheaper.

I'd imagine the ownership issues they have had with family squabbling didn't help their business.

First Up

Don't forget the snails.

Ernest Oreo

To the guy who said, half your price and you'll quadruple your business - i'd love to understand the basis to this mathematical equation. Nonsensical.

I cant see there being any major fear for this development (course and adjoining facilities). It will be bought before the summer proper kicks off. A dream development and one that is already turning a profit in certain areas. Projections must have been nuts.

But as one commentator said, the family issue clearly has not helped issues here. This is a drastic step to force a sale, but from my read that's what we are dealing with here.

To the blokes referring to the location as the 'back arse of no where' - buy a map. For a golfing trip, regardless of where you are coming from, Doonbeg could safely be considered a hub. Excellent mix of courses within 60-90 mins. Of course its not a lads-on-tour destination, far too upmarket. And as for societies whinging about being priced out of a day trip, i suspect you need to recruit a new events organiser. Loads of irish societies there in last 5 years, growing every year, now accounting for 1/5 golfers throughout the regular society season.

Final point, i dont think anyone rocking up with 2/3/4 playing partners at 14.30 / 15.00 onwards paid 175 euros in last few years. The place is accessible to all, albeit could be considered a golfing 'treat'. And rightly so.

Ernest

thewobbler

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

To the guy who said, half your price and you'll quadruple your business - i'd love to understand the basis to this mathematical equation. Nonsensical.

I cant see there being any major fear for this development (course and adjoining facilities). It will be bought before the summer proper kicks off. A dream development and one that is already turning a profit in certain areas. Projections must have been nuts.

But as one commentator said, the family issue clearly has not helped issues here. This is a drastic step to force a sale, but from my read that's what we are dealing with here.

To the blokes referring to the location as the 'back arse of no where' - buy a map. For a golfing trip, regardless of where you are coming from, Doonbeg could safely be considered a hub. Excellent mix of courses within 60-90 mins. Of course its not a lads-on-tour destination, far too upmarket. And as for societies whinging about being priced out of a day trip, i suspect you need to recruit a new events organiser. Loads of irish societies there in last 5 years, growing every year, now accounting for 1/5 golfers throughout the regular society season.

Final point, i dont think anyone rocking up with 2/3/4 playing partners at 14.30 / 15.00 onwards paid 175 euros in last few years. The place is accessible to all, albeit could be considered a golfing 'treat'. And rightly so.

Ernest

So in a nutshell, Doonbeg has absolutely no problems at all with its business model, or how is is perceived in the Irish market, and the reason it is in receivership is simply down to personal issues among the owners.

Right-ee-oo.

Ernest Oreo

No. There are issues.
I am trying to provide a little balance to the exaggerated claims outlined before me here.

Fact - the course was developed for an international market.
Although this has recovered in last 2 years, it took a serious hammering in 3-4 year period prior to that.

Fact - the course has made a significant effort, particularly in last 3 years, to attract a more indigenous customer. Of course they could cut the price further, as price is typically the first blockage referenced by potential customers, but this isnt really a long term solution and is easily replicated.

The business model had flaws certainly. Perhaps the biggest criticism should be that it did not evolve with market dynamics from 2007 onwards. They're playing catch up, and catching up.

Wichita Lineman

Unfortunately for many, price alone seems to be the one deciding factor in the decision as to where they can golf and this applies to regularly and a one off round. All inevitably contributing in the clubs race to the bottom with ever more alarming speed.

FixdePitchmark

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

No. There are issues.
I am trying to provide a little balance to the exaggerated claims outlined before me here.

Fact - the course was developed for an international market.
Although this has recovered in last 2 years, it took a serious hammering in 3-4 year period prior to that.

Fact - the course has made a significant effort, particularly in last 3 years, to attract a more indigenous customer. Of course they could cut the price further, as price is typically the first blockage referenced by potential customers, but this isnt really a long term solution and is easily replicated.

The business model had flaws certainly. Perhaps the biggest criticism should be that it did not evolve with market dynamics from 2007 onwards. They're playing catch up, and catching up.

How much could a society have paid in the last year or so ?

So you are saying the business model was flawed - That is what was said here.

You are saying parts of it was profitable - sorry that is pr spin.

You are saying it is societies fault if they perceived the place as a high end destination

So Doonbeg came with the begging bowl to the "indigenous" people whilst they get the high end back on track. :eek::eek::eek:

And you are saying that the reaction here is exaggerated - I think Doonbeg had its head in the sand Dunes.

Ernest Oreo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How much could a society have paid in the last year or so ?
I dont have exact figures but significant discounts available for Groups of 20 persons +.

So you are saying the business model was flawed - That is what was said here. The business model was too inflexible, and should have been refined earlier that '09/'10

You are saying parts of it was profitable - sorry that is pr spin. Incorrect. Please do show me the detail behind your assertion though.

You are saying it is societies fault if they perceived the place as a high end destination No. I said there were various options available for societies to take advantage of, should they have explored these. Thus facilitating access to Groups with even modest budgets.

So Doonbeg came with the begging bowl to the "indigenous" people whilst they get the high end back on track. :eek::eek::eek: No. The business model has been refined, as mentioned on numerous occasions above. It includes a proactive approach to the indigenous market. Previously this was not ignored, but certainly not pursued with any real aggression.

And you are saying that the reaction here is exaggerated - I think Doonbeg had its head in the sand Dunes. You might think that, I couldnt possibly comment

Ernest

Ernest Oreo

Just an addendum..

the biggest threat to Doonbeg GC is coastal erosion, not the application of a prehistoric business model.
This is particularly worrying given the lack of options available to any new owner in protecting the marvellous dunes from the atlantic ocean.

jarvis_c82

To be honest, it's a shame this resort has gone into receivership but it was inevitable.

As a member of Lahinch, I enjoyed the times I have played Doonbeg, though that was more to the facilities and setup of the resort. It always feels like a treat. The course itself has its few memorable holes, unfortunately the negative publicity and redesign due to the snails and right of way through the course has limited the potential of dunes that are there for a golf course. The pitching to wealthy Americans and not much to the general has not helped it until recently.

I still feel that there is too much investment in the resort that a buyer will pick it up and maybe rebrand it for the local / society market.

Benny Cake

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

To the guy who said, half your price and you'll quadruple your business - i'd love to understand the basis to this mathematical equation. Nonsensical.

Its about filling the time-sheet and thereby the clubhouse with paying punters.
Have you ever priced a weekend at the pretentiously titled "Lodge at Doonbeg"? t'would be cheaper fly to Portugal for a week of golf.

Doonbeg deliberately priced themselves out of the domestic market & IMO are deservedly paying the price....

First Up

Benny Cake wrote: »

Its about filling the time-sheet and thereby the clubhouse with paying punters.
Have you ever priced a weekend at the pretentiously titled "Lodge at Doonbeg"? t'would be cheaper fly to Portugal for a week of golf.

Doonbeg deliberately priced themselves out of the domestic market & IMO are deservedly paying the price....

I think you are confusing Doonbeg with a "normal" golf club. Like Adare and Old Head, Doonbeg only existed to cater for people who want to experience Irish golf under Country Club conditions. Filling it with happy punters on reduced green fees would scare off what remaining business they have.
The reports today are of six inquiries from potential buyers - none Irish.

TrapperChamonix

Newstalk claiming this morning that Trump are looking at purchasing Doonbeg.

charlieIRL

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

Newstalk claiming this morning that Trump are looking at purchasing Doonbeg.

its in the irish independent email this morning as well. just going to read it now.

Kevinmarkham

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

Newstalk claiming this morning that Trump are looking at purchasing Doonbeg.

charlieIRL wrote: »

its in the irish independent email this morning as well. just going to read it now.

Looks like it started with this article in the Irish Examiner.

Is it just me, or does €15 million seem like a bargain for one of the world's most acclaimed golf resorts?

peepee

Pat Kenny just had the guy from "You've been Trumped" on talking about Doonbeg. Interesting interview

SnowDrifts

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Looks like it started with this article in the Irish Examiner.

Is it just me, or does €15 million seem like a bargain for one of the world's most acclaimed golf resorts?

€15 million would definitely seem like a bargain. Interesting point from the examiner - "It is understood that existing property owners will retain all rights under the terms of any sale agreement." Not sure why Trump would agree to this?

Dbu

SnowDrifts wrote: »

€15 million would definitely seem like a bargain. Interesting point from the examiner - "It is understood that existing property owners will retain all rights under the terms of any sale agreement." Not sure why Trump would agree to this?

€15mil for Doonbeg, makes Fota look like such a snip at €20mil

Give me Fota anyday

GreeBo

Benny Cake wrote: »

Its about filling the time-sheet and thereby the clubhouse with paying punters.
Have you ever priced a weekend at the pretentiously titled "Lodge at Doonbeg"? t'would be cheaper fly to Portugal for a week of golf.

Doonbeg deliberately priced themselves out of the domestic market & IMO are deservedly paying the price....

Filling the timesheet with punters at €20 a head isnt going to cover the costs of a resort like Doonbeg.

blackwhite

SnowDrifts wrote: »

€15 million would definitely seem like a bargain. Interesting point from the examiner - "It is understood that existing property owners will retain all rights under the terms of any sale agreement." Not sure why Trump would agree to this?

I'd say that refers to anyone who had bought one of the houses on the development.

Trump buys the hotel/lodge, any houses that the hotel still owned for rentals, the golf course and any other lands.
Houses on the development that are privately owned will remain privately owned, and I'd imagine will retain any playing rights that they have now.

SnowDrifts

blackwhite wrote: »

I'd say that refers to anyone who had bought one of the houses on the development.

Trump buys the hotel/lodge, any houses that the hotel still owned for rentals, the golf course and any other lands.
Houses on the development that are privately owned will remain privately owned, and I'd imagine will retain any playing rights that they have now.

Ah that would make sense alright - couldn't see why Trump would bother otherwise.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

Filling the timesheet with punters at €20 a head isnt going to cover the costs of a resort like Doonbeg.

There are folk who think that lowering green fees is the solution to everything.