LPG for me?

unkel

Bought an '04 BMW 520i auto a few months ago and I intend to keep this car for at least another 2 years from now on

An LPG station / fitter (part of a chain of them) opened up recently near me and offer their highest spec LPG conversion for 6 cylinder cars for €1299. Linky

I only do about 6k miles per year. With petrol at €1.52 and LPG at €0.78 and consumption at 25MPG and 22MPG, I'd save about €700 per year in fuel

Would you go for it?

Vote 4 Pedro

Personally no i wouldn't go for it,

I don't know how it would affect the resale value of the car but your mileage is tiny anyway.
There was a massive boom in LPG conversions about 12 years ago in the UK, everyone was having it done, I was an auto electrician over there at the time and i have seen a good few of the conversions, You don't see them anymore and the ones i saw would all be in the scrap yard by now but the fact that it's not done (or hardly done) anymore over there should say something.

Seweryn

unkel wrote: »

Bought an '04 BMW 520i auto a few months ago and I intend to keep this car for at least another 2 years from now on

An LPG station / fitter (part of a chain of them) opened up recently near me and offer their highest spec LPG conversion for 6 cylinder cars for €1299. Linky

I only do about 6k miles per year. With petrol at €1.52 and LPG at €0.78 and consumption at 25MPG and 22MPG, I'd save about €700 per year in fuel

Would you go for it?

You would just break even after two years of your ownership witrh the cost of the LPG installation.

Another very important question is, do you have a reliable nerby loctaed LPG supplier?

Your mileage is small, i.e. you probably do a lot of short trips and I believe you can live without a car, so if I was looking for savings, I would just drive less.

To summarise, if you are only going to keep the car for two years, I would not go for it.

unkel

You're both right, my mileage is low and I'd only about break even if I sold the car in 2 years time (at which point the car would be worth about the same with or without LPG installation)

I might very well keep the car for another 4 years though, saving myself well over a grand in those 4 years, even with a pessimistic calculation

Seweryn wrote: »

Another very important question is, do you have a reliable nerby loctaed LPG supplier?

I do, see my original post

Zico

LOL DFX I've wondered for some time whether gas cars stopped exploding or whether the media were just paid enough to stop reporting it.

dgt

unkel wrote: »

Bought an '04 BMW 520i auto a few months ago and I intend to keep this car for at least another 2 years from now on

An LPG station / fitter (part of a chain of them) opened up recently near me and offer their highest spec LPG conversion for 6 cylinder cars for €1299. Linky

I only do about 6k miles per year. With petrol at €1.52 and LPG at €0.78 and consumption at 25MPG and 22MPG, I'd save about €700 per year in fuel

Would you go for it?

I thought about it with my 520 but decided against it on the basis I wouldn't be keeping the car and as I change cars often enough anyway it wouldn't be worth it. Maybe the next car, I'm undecided yet

Where's your nearest fitter? There's a fitter in Navan who lives in Lucan

unkel

dgt wrote: »

I thought about it with my 520 but decided against it on the basis I wouldn't be keeping the car and as I change cars often enough anyway it wouldn't be worth it. Maybe the next car, I'm undecided yet

Exactly my thoughts when I got my previous car, a Saab 9-5, which was never going to be a car for the long term for me

dgt wrote: »

Where's your nearest fitter? There's a fitter in Navan who lives in Lucan

In Lucan. Only about a mile from the village, where I have to be several times a week anyway. Only saw that tonight, so that's what prompted me to start this thread.

There are some "hidden" costs in using LPG:

-extra maintenance (of the LPG system)
-extra driving to fill up (plus the inconvenience of it and time lost)
-driving on petrol at least some of the time

Another issue for me is that most of my driving is short distance start stop, where one would use 10-20% more LPG than petrol (particularly if both tanks are full)

If the installation was under a grand, I'd be more keen to go for it...

Seweryn

unkel wrote: »

Another issue for me is that most of my driving is short distance start stop, where one would use 10-20% more LPG than petrol (particularly if both tanks are full).

I don't think the issue here is the higher consumption of LPG than petrol, as the engine would use slightly more LPG than petrol in any driving conditions.
The problem is that on short trips the engine will run on petrol until it warms up and switches to LPG. If your trips are really short, then you will be still burning a lot of petrol per year.

bcmf

In the next year or so I am considering making the move to LPG. I work with a few Lithunians and they love it.It can justify the purchase of a luxobarge if you intend on keeping.
I believe they know a fitter who will fit with a cert for about a grand. I will need to confirm this though.
The technology compared to a few years back has vastly improved.
In fact I was told last week that in Lithunia they are testing an lpg system on diesels engines!
How that works I havent a clue.

unkel

Seweryn wrote: »

I don't think the issue here is the higher consumption of LPG than petrol

There is. At cruising speed on motorways, the difference is negligible, but in heavy start stop traffic it could easily be up to 20% (the weight of the LPG installation and full tank is the guts of 100KG I guess, which in itself is significant in that kinda traffic on a car of say 1400KG)

And as you say, if you do a lot of short trips (which I do too), you'll be driving on petrol quite a bit

unkel

bcmf wrote: »

It can justify the purchase of a luxobarge if you intend on keeping.

Indeed! On a V8 luxobarge, the installation is earned back within a year even if you do slightly less than average miles!

I've had a few of those myself and if LPG had been as widely available back then, I would have converted them for sure!

mullingar

bcmf wrote: »

In fact I was told last week that in Lithunia they are testing an lpg system on diesels engines!
How that works I havent a clue.

It is possible to run a diesel engine on lpg, but only at a maximum 50/50 mix as the lpg needs a source of ignition to ignite, ie the ignited compressed diesel.

I have an lpg'd 98 gs300, well worth the conversion.

unkel

mullingar wrote: »

I have an lpg'd 98 gs300, well worth the conversion.

If it's worth it depends on a few factors, I guess you do a bigger mileage then me?

mullingar

unkel wrote: »

There is. At cruising speed on motorways, the difference is negligible, but in heavy start stop traffic it could easily be up to 20% (the weight of the LPG installation and full tank is the guts of 100KG I guess, which in itself is significant in that kinda traffic on a car of say 1400KG)

And as you say, if you do a lot of short trips (which I do too), you'll be driving on petrol quite a bit

You will consume 15-20% more regardless of type of driving to maintain proper stochiometric and lamba levels.

Lpg only weighs around 0.5kg a litre, so a full 80L(65L) tank can only hold 38kgs of lpg.

unkel

mullingar wrote: »

You will consume 15-20% more regardless of type of driving to maintain proper stochiometric and lamba levels.

Ouch! I thought at constant (motorway) speed the difference was only a few percent these days? Obviously in start stop traffic the extra weight of the LPG system and fuel adds significantly to the fuel consumption

mullingar wrote: »

Lpg only weighs around 0.5kg a litre, so a full 80L(65L) tank can only hold 38kgs of lpg.

What's roughly the weight of the tank itself and all the other bits and bobs of the installation?

mullingar

I found it used 15-20% more, regardless if its primarily city or motorway driving and I get an average of 20mpg on lpg vs 24mpg on petrol.

The equipment is probably 40kg. 30kg for the tank plus all the other bits.

stimpson

I got my 5 pot S60 done in LPGain in tallaght before Christmas. 1100 including the filler beside the petrol cap and a 70 litre tank. I've done about 500 miles so far and love it. No noticeable difference in power or driveability. It switches to lpg within half a mile in the mornings or a lot less when the engine isn't stone cold.

The big win for me is that there is an lpg station right around the corner from me. On the first 2 tanks I got 26 and 21mpg, but at half the price of petrol. The second tank was short trips over the Christmas so now I'm back in work I expect to see closer to 26 as it's M50 all the way. I was putting €50 a week into the old car just going to work. Now it's closer to €30. At 20 quid saving a week I'll break even in a little over a year.

Stinicker

I converted my e36 in September 2012, best move I ever made and I have over 15,000 miles up on LPG since. The only drawback is that there is still not enough places selling the fuel. It is a great system and I have saved enough to pay the conversion and have a good few hundred saved since which is all savings to me now.

Cowboy2014

<Poster, please read this forum. It will help you with the most common questions new users have.>

Marcusm

1. You can't assume a 100% saving of the difference per gallon.

2. Your mileage is quite low.

3. It barely pays back over your expected ownership period.

4. It will reduce the size of your boot meaning it will likely impact on resale ability negatively.

All of these together would make me pause for thought. I have thought of LPGing my V8 SUV and probably will eventually. I'd be hesitant to do it on a 520i.

Stinicker

Marcusm wrote: »

1. You can't assume a 100% saving of the difference per gallon.

2. Your mileage is quite low.

3. It barely pays back over your expected ownership period.

4. It will reduce the size of your boot meaning it will likely impact on resale ability negatively.

All of these together would make me pause for thought. I have thought of LPGing my V8 SUV and probably will eventually. I'd be hesitant to do it on a 520i.

I have a donut LPG tank in the spare-wheel well,, no difference in the boot other than not having a spare whell. I carry a car of the tyre-weld gunge now instead.

toyotaavensis

OP you look like you are going for a Zenit system. When I was thinking about going for LPG, I did my homework and it seems Prins is the best system you can get. It is not much more expensive than what is on the website link you provided.

In the end I decided not to go for it as the avensis valves dont like lpg. If you go to the prins website they have details of cars which dont react to LPG well. I suggest you look up your car before you get it.

Sobanek

^He's right - PRINS is the best for 6cyl BMWs. 99% of LPG converted 6 pot bimmers in Poland have either Prins or Landi Renzo conversions (in rare cases they've stag300).

15-20% is bull**** and if that's the case, I'd really have my conversion checked. Even my uncle's E38 730i used 16l/100km average petrol and only 19l/100km LPG (less than 10% more). His was a Landi Renzo conversion though.

toyotaavensis

3/16 is more than 10%

wonski

Stinicker wrote: »

I have a donut LPG tank in the spare-wheel well,, no difference in the boot other than not having a spare whell. I carry a car of the tyre-weld gunge now instead.

I am surprised anyone would say the lpg installation would lower the resale value, too.
If it is fitted for the vehicle that averages 20-25 mpg, then i would rather have smaller boot and an equivalent of 40 mpg tbh.
It is a good option even for a smaller engine - know of a 1.4 05 Honda Civic that works very well doing Athy-Naas-Athy everyday. The 1000 euro investment paid off very soon.
Those donut tanks are very clever, and if properly fitted the floor of the boot will be raised so you won't notice the difference (well - the capacity is smaller after that but with 75-85c/l you can't go wrong).
If i had a choice to pay a premium to have same car with a diesel engine(50mpg) or a petrol with a LPG, i would choose the second one.
My 2c.

Sobanek

toyotaavensis wrote: »

3/16 is more than 10%

Pardon. I had 2/3 bottles of vodka My math ain't the best

toyotaavensis

I didnt mean to seem snotty. I imagine your maths are correct and you put in the wrong numbers as there should be about a 10% drop in mpg when you move to lpg.

Sobanek

toyotaavensis wrote: »

I didnt mean to seem snotty. I imagine your maths are correct and you put in the wrong numbers as there should be about a 10% drop in mpg when you move to lpg.

17.6 mpg on petrol
14.9 mpg on LPG.

toyotaavensis

That seems high. What sort of car/conversion kit is it?

Sobanek

toyotaavensis wrote: »

That seems high. What sort of car/conversion kit is it?

1994 BMW E38 730iA with the owner's foot welded to the floor

mullingar

Sobanek wrote: »

17.6 mpg on petrol
14.9 mpg on LPG.

= an 18.1% increase.

Bang on in the 15-20% range for increased consumption

toyotaavensis

isnt the consumption meant to increase by about 10%

Seweryn

Sobanek wrote: »

1994 BMW E38 730iA with the owner's foot welded to the floor

Must be so. My friend's 740iA does twice better mpg than that.

Marcusm

Stinicker wrote: »

I have a donut LPG tank in the spare-wheel well,, no difference in the boot other than not having a spare whell. I carry a car of the tyre-weld gunge now instead.

I agree with this but it would still complicate a resale because most people don't think so rationally!

stimpson

Marcusm wrote: »

I agree with this but it would still complicate a resale because most people don't think so rationally!

A lot of cars don't come with a spare wheel anymore so it's not such a big deal. The OP's BMW probably has runflats in any case.

If LPG gets more popular then I think you'll see cars commanding a premium, but at the end of the day with a 10 year old, sub 3 grand car and average mileage you'll save the entire cost of the car and kit in 4 or 5 years.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

I'll be converting the truck to LPG shortly, at the same place as mentioned in the OP.
Did the sums and for me it pays back and starts making savings in 12-18 months.

blancha

bcmf wrote: »

In the next year or so I am considering making the move to LPG. I work with a few Lithunians and they love it.It can justify the purchase of a luxobarge if you intend on keeping.
I believe they know a fitter who will fit with a cert for about a grand. I will need to confirm this though.
The technology compared to a few years back has vastly improved.
In fact I was told last week that in Lithunia they are testing an lpg system on diesels engines!
How that works I havent a clue.

They are testing, but it works for last 5 years in Holland, Poland i.e. I think conversion of diesel can be done in Ireland as well. Not sure how is the demand, but found something here

Jesus.

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I'll be converting the truck to LPG shortly, at the same place as mentioned in the OP.
Did the sums and for me it pays back and starts making savings in 12-18 months.

Cleve, that's a motor you're gonna keep more or less for good isn't it?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Jesus. wrote: »

Cleve, that's a motor you're gonna keep more or less for good isn't it?

Yeah that's the plan. I love it, and sure even if I didn't what fool would buy it :P

Bigus

Buy a nice road bike for 1299 instead and save more fuel and maybe 2 months road tax in the summer ,and get fit too !

http://planetxireland.com/products-page/sl-pro-carbon-bikes/

homingbird

I heard that the best conversion kit are made in Italy. So check where that kit is made.

blancha

homingbird wrote: »

I heard that the best conversion kit are made in Italy. So check where that kit is made.

best kits are made in Netherlads.Brc,Lovato.Landi are not so good like before.Many others more advanced and with much better quality.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Bigus wrote: »

Buy a nice road bike for 1299 instead and save more fuel and maybe 2 months road tax in the summer ,and get fit too !

http://planetxireland.com/products-page/sl-pro-carbon-bikes/

Can't drive the truck if I am sitting on a bike in fairness - that kind of defeats the purpose.

Oh and :eek: @ 1300 for a bike.

unkel

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Oh and :eek: @ 1300 for a bike.

LOL yeah you could buy a decent Saab for that kinda money. And unlike the bike, it would be safe and would fit my family too

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Oh and :eek: @ 1300 for a bike.

1300 for a bike isn't that much really, not for a good one, it makes a huge difference a decent quality bike.

I paid twice that for mine !

You could easily spend 10,000 on a bicycle !

stimpson

Cycling forum --->

bcmf

blancha wrote: »

They are testing, but it works for last 5 years in Holland, Poland i.e. I think conversion of diesel can be done in Ireland as well. Not sure how is the demand, but found something here

Linky not linking anywhere!!
A diesel lpg conversion. I am interested!

toyotaavensis

the diesel lpg conversion takes a long time to pay for itself. Lpgain in tallaght do it. A few lads on here had it done there.

stimpson

The diesel conversion mixes the LPG with diesel so reduces the diesel consumption as opposed to pure LPG that gets burnt in a petrol engine. There is no source of ignition in a Diesel engine. I think the savings are about 25% so it would take far longer to pay back than a petrol conversion.

Just filled my 3rd tank of LPG 210 miles on 41.27l = 23.20 mpg (at 77c/l)

RR3.5

stimpson wrote: »

The diesel conversion mixes the LPG with diesel so reduces the diesel consumption as opposed to pure LPG that gets burnt in a petrol engine. There is no source of ignition in a Diesel engine. I think the savings are about 25% so it would take far longer to pay back than a petrol conversion.

Just filled my 3rd tank of LPG 210 miles on 41.27l = 23.20 mpg (at 77c/l)

Hi, where are you buying gas at that price.

stimpson

RR3.5 wrote: »

Hi, where are you buying gas at that price.

LPGain in Finglas. Normal price is 82 but you get a 5c discount if you get your car converted there.