Murder rates and house prices (split from Depressing Dublin House prices)

The Spider

alastair wrote: »

No they don't. There's a noticeable class-bias that some like to wrap up in other guises.

Not a class-bias it's a safety bias.

alastair wrote: »

I thought you wouldn't consider the odd murder in your area?

I wouldn't as I said previously I don't live in Dublin

alastair wrote: »

Really? The largest rises in asking prices relate to rental properties, apartments in particular, which tend to be closer to the city centre. Equally, of the three Dublin property 'hotspots' supposedly identified in the last six months, two of them are in that wasteland of respectability, de Nortside.

Priced out of the desirable areas as there's little supply the next logical step is to look at alternatives.

alastair

The Spider wrote: »

Not a class-bias it's a safety bias.

If you say so. :rolleyes:

The Spider wrote: »

I wouldn't as I said previously I don't live in Dublin

You live in rural Utopia?

The Spider wrote: »

Priced out of the desirable areas as there's little supply the next logical step is to look at alternatives.

There's little supply across the entire city. Two of the three 'desirable areas' are on the Northside. That's what the 'hotspots' relate to.

The Spider

alastair wrote: »

If you say so. :rolleyes:




You live in rural Utopia?



There's little supply across the entire city. Two of the three 'desirable areas' are on the Northside. That's what the 'hotspots' relate to.

what are the areas?

Ush1

The Spider wrote: »

Good god that really isn't an argument, what about the other streets, don't get me wrong I know Tallaght very well, I have a lot of friends from Tallaght and there are areas that are fine, however given the choice I'd never bring kids up there, that simple if it's a choice between Tallaght and a commute, believe me the commute is the better option.

What other streets? I really don't think you know Tallaght as well as you think you do, hence your referencing Cabinteely and murder most foul. You really don't seem to get the scale and demographics.

The Spider wrote: »

Now I'm not from Tallaght or Dublin for that matter, so I can look at it all with zero attachment to any particular area, and given the choice I and most other people will choose an area where, my kids aren't exposed to crime or exposed to people who are exposed to crime, and having grown up in what would be considered a relatively dodgy enough area outside Dublin, I know how easy it is to fall in with the wrong crowd.

How insular are you going to get?? Where will your kids work or socialise? Dublin City you're cheek to cheek with the great unwashed I'm afraid.

The Spider wrote: »

I have friends in Dublin who didn't grow up in these areas and friends from Dublin and home who did, needless to say we all turned out fine, but I'd say the people who grew up in the decent areas have had better opportunities in life, and weren't exposed to some of the stuff I or other friends were purely by virtue of the fact of where they grew up.

Indeed.

I'm not going to derail the thread any further but in a roundabout way you've answered my original question on why people have such an opinion.

The Spider

Ush1 wrote: »

What other streets? I really don't think you know Tallaght as well as you think you do, hence your referencing Cabinteely and murder most foul. You really don't seem to get the scale and demographics.



How insular are you going to get?? Where will your kids work or socialise? Dublin City you're cheek to cheek with the great unwashed I'm afraid.



Indeed.

I'm not going to derail the thread any further but in a roundabout way you've answered my original question on why people have such an opinion.

I know Tallaght very well, would you have preffered if I said Cabinteely, sandyford, Killiney, dalkey, Blackrock, Dundrum, Dun laoighre, Shankill and Ballybrack, to try and cover an area as large as Tallaght, maybe I should have.

Dun Laoighre can be dodgy so can Ballybrack and Shankill, and other areas, but they have a long way to go to catch up on Tallaght, and this isn't derailing the thread, this is all as to why house prices in those arteas are expensive and houses in tallaght are not (relatively speaking)

In fact there's only one house in all of Tallaght for sale for more than 300,000, what does that say?

alastair

The Spider wrote: »

what are the areas?

Hang on - I thought you had a handle on what were the 'desirable areas'? You don't actually know the Dublin price rise hotspot areas?

As to the safety of your bolthole; Tallaght had 992 burglaries reported in 2012, for a population of over 71,500, while Gorey, with a population of 9000 had 129 reported. By my reckoning, that places Gorey in pretty much the same territory.

The Spider

alastair wrote: »

Hang on - I thought you had a handle on what were the 'desirable areas'? You don't actually know the Dublin price rise hotspot areas?

As to the safety of your bolthole; Tallaght had 992 burglaries reported in 2012, for a population of over 71,500, while Gorey, with a population of 9000 had 129 reported. By my reckoning, that places Gorey lower down the 'desirable' rankings on that front.

Jaysus took you a while to trail through previous posts to find where I was living, round of applause. True there's burglaries but there are in every town, look at the article I put up, a lot of those would be holiday homes.

Now why do you seem adamant, that there are no desirable areas in Dublin and that Tallaght is the same as any other area?

I'm not hiding anything and again what are the desirable areas on the northside?

murphaph

The Spider wrote: »

Hard to find particular stats, but an article based on the cso will suffice.

"GARDAI and the Department of Justice have been urged to allocate more resources to tackling crime in Tallaght after it emerged that the area accounted for the highest number of burglaries recorded in the State last year.

New statistics published by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) show that gardaí recorded 922 burglaries last year in the Tallaght area, which was the highest rate in the country."

http://www.dublinpeople.com/article.php?id=1554

Burglary as opposed to murder, but no one likes to come home and find their house burgled and yes crime happens everywhere, but the stats say it's more likely in Tallaght.

Happy?

Is that 922 per 100,000 population or what? You can't simply say "area x has the most burglaries" because area x could be massive compared to other areas.

I suspect Tallaght has "the highest rate of burglary in the state" because it only has one police station, despite it being a town of 100k people, bigger than Limerick, Galway, Waterford etc. all of which have multiple police stations to divide their crime statistics up for them whereas all burglaries in Tallaght are recorded in Tallaght Garda Station. Hardly a fair comparison.

The Spider

murphaph wrote: »

Is that 922 per 100,000 population or what? You can't simply say "area x has the most burglaries" because area x could be massive compared to other areas.

I suspect Tallaght has "the highest rate of burglary in the state" because it only has one police station, despite it being a town of 100k people, bigger than Limerick, Galway, Waterford etc. all of which have multiple police stations to divide their crime statistics up for them whereas all burglaries in Tallaght are recorded in Tallaght Garda Station. Hardly a fair comparison.

Going a bit off topic at this stage I think, the title of the thread is depressing dublin house prices, however there are areas that people can buy.

Judging by the vociferous defence of Tallaght on this thread I don't know why people aren't looking to buy there or in similar areas, plenty of three bed semis there that are below 200k, you have the luas to the city and plenty of bus routes.

So I don't see what the problem is, especially if as the thread suggests house prices are unreachable to a couple on an average income?

spockety

The Spider wrote: »

In fact there's only one house in all of Tallaght for sale for more than 300,000, what does that say?

That's not true. There are a fair few houses for sale around Kiltipper and Oldcourt/Bohernabreena north of €300K.

The Spider

spockety wrote: »

That's not true. There are a fair few houses for sale around Kiltipper and Oldcourt/Bohernabreena north of €300K.

I stand corrected, I just checked daft, where there's only 1 however on my home there's 6 including the 1 on daft.

So there's 6 houses over 300 in Tallaght.

alastair

The Spider wrote: »

Jaysus took you a while to trail through previous posts to find where I was living, round of applause.

Your supposed commuting safe harbour just sounded a little too good to be true - and so it transpires. 59 assaults in Gorey in the same year. Doesn't sound particularly crime-free to me.

The Spider wrote: »

True there's burglaries but there are in every town, look at the article I put up, a lot of those would be holiday homes.

Ah, that's grand then. Those assaults might have just been on tourists too.

The Spider wrote: »

Now why do you seem adamant, that there are no desirable areas in Dublin and that Tallaght is the same as any other area?

I'm not hiding anything and again what are the desirable areas on the northside?

I made no comment on desirable areas not existing. You can gauge what's desirable by what's increasing in value. I made a comment on the notion of 'respectable' areas, and their remarkable equivalence with affluent areas.

spockety

The Spider wrote: »

I stand corrected, I just checked daft, where there's only 1 however on my home there's 6 including the 1 on daft.

So there's 6 houses over 300 in Tallaght.

There are a significant number of houses worth north of that (some well well north of that) in Tallaght. They're just not for sale right now.

Anyway, not sure what the point is. €300K is a ****load of money. In terms of your bog standard 3 bed semi, even the nicer areas in Tallaght probably shouldn't be priced any higher than about €175K in a normal market.

alastair

murphaph wrote: »

Is that 922 per 100,000 population or what? You can't simply say "area x has the most burglaries" because area x could be massive compared to other areas.

I suspect Tallaght has "the highest rate of burglary in the state" because it only has one police station, despite it being a town of 100k people, bigger than Limerick, Galway, Waterford etc. all of which have multiple police stations to divide their crime statistics up for them whereas all burglaries in Tallaght are recorded in Tallaght Garda Station. Hardly a fair comparison.

It's actually got pretty much the same rate of reported burglaries as the posters own supposed commuter belt safe haven.

The Spider

spockety wrote: »

There are a significant number of houses worth north of that (some well well north of that) in Tallaght. They're just not for sale right now.

Anyway, not sure what the point is. €300K is a ****load of money. In terms of your bog standard 3 bed semi, even the nicer areas in Tallaght probably shouldn't be priced any higher than about €175K in a normal market.

A house is only worth what it sells for, that applies to high prices and low prices, if it sells for 500 then that's what it's worth if it sells for 100 the that's what it's worth.

The_Conductor

Not only are you off-topic- you're bickering here.
Final warning- get back on-topic, and quit with the bickering (all of you!!!).

spockety

The_Conductor wrote: »

Not only are you off-topic- you're bickering here.
Final warning- get back on-topic, and quit with the bickering (all of you!!!).

You including my stuff about the market distortion which is affecting Dublin house prices? Or the stuff from people about crime?

The_Conductor

spockety wrote: »

You including my stuff about the market distortion which is affecting Dublin house prices? Or the stuff from people about crime?

Crime mostly- but nit picking with one another is what I had in mind. Obviously your comments about market distortion are very pertinent (and indeed deserve to be expanded upon).

I am unhappy with people tossing comments at one another- rather than debating the subject at hand- that is the point I was making.

gaius c

alastair wrote: »

Hang on - I thought you had a handle on what were the 'desirable areas'? You don't actually know the Dublin price rise hotspot areas?

As to the safety of your bolthole; Tallaght had 992 burglaries reported in 2012, for a population of over 71,500, while Gorey, with a population of 9000 had 129 reported. By my reckoning, that places Gorey in pretty much the same territory.

Gorey has actually had a huge increase in burglaries and our large Wexford contingent in the office never miss a chance to talk about old folks in isolated rural houses there living in fear.
http://www.wexfordecho.ie/2013/11/26/burglary-shows-24-hike-gorey-district/

The whole talk of "crime" is a complete red herring because by international standards, crime is actually very low in Ireland and genuine "no go" areas (as opposed to "a little bit run down and working class for my liking" areas) are few and far between.

Edit: didn't see posts above before I replied.

Victor

The Spider wrote: »

See links above or do a search for crime deaths tallaght 2013, plenty of em.

Do a search for crime deaths Cabinteely 2013 and compare and contrast.

Constructive, meaningful posts only please - you are comparing apples and oranges.

In Ireland, unless you are involved in the drugs trade, the people most likely to kill you are your close family and friends.

Moderator

McDook

Im from Tallaght.
My parents still live there.
I have friends who always shout from the rooftops that they are "proud" to be from Tallaght. Dont know what that means.
I think im objective enough to see past the home tinted glasses that most people have on.
I would never live there again, let alone bring my kids up there.

I always find that a good test of whether an area is safe is to go there about 10pm after dark and have a walk around for a few hours.
Then ask yourself, would you be happy having your mother/wife/daughter doing that same walk, or having to live there.
You can tell a lot about a place by getting the last bus to it too. Try that one. I suppose some people here would be quite happy to live in Tallaght after doing that, but i bet 99% wouldnt.

Anyone who thinks Tallaght doent deserve its reputation go ahead and do a walk around about 10 pm during the summer. See how you feel about it afterwards.
My cousin lives in Ballyfermot. Now that is even worse than Tallaght.
Try a walkaround there.

drumswan

Another spoofer. Its not possible to walk around Tallaght in a few hours, Google maps says its an hour an a half to walk from Tymon North to Killinarden in a straight line.

My mother in her sixties has been walking around the Old Bawn area to keep fit every evening for the last twenty years without issue. My father often takes the last 49 home from Knocklyon, again - no issue. There are several ordinary middle class or lower middle class areas in and around Tallaght, exactly the same as the vast majority of areas the vast majority of Dublins suburban population live in.

Seeing the weird classism on here day in, day out, and indeed the pathetic self loating of people from working class and lower middle class areas, its no wonder prices are affected so much. If areas like Kingswood, Belgard and Firhouse are being written off as some kind of ghettos in the minds of some buyers, thats definitely something normal people should be looking to take advantage of. Ditto if people are writing off the likes of Clontarf because its north of the liffey.

listermint

The Spider wrote: »

See links above or do a search for crime deaths tallaght 2013, plenty of em.

Do a search for crime deaths Cabinteely 2013 and compare and contrast.

I lived in Cabinteely for 2 years in a massive penthouse apartment which cost a fortune. Was renting with two good friends.

In those two years my car was rammed into by someone I put a notice in the board for information and was warned off the suspect by a local garda the vehicle belonged to a notorious drug dealer living in adjacent apartments.

We also had the drug squad fly in one morning with guns out kicking in doors in the private estate.


In all my years in tallaght my car was never hit or did I live beside or witness the drug squad kicking doors in. I've lived here the remainder of my life.


One thing I hate in life is assumptions by people who haven't a clue what they are talking about.

listermint

McDook wrote: »

Im from Tallaght.
My parents still live there.
I have friends who always shout from the rooftops that they are "proud" to be from Tallaght. Dont know what that means.
I think im objective enough to see past the home tinted glasses that most people have on.
I would never live there again, let alone bring my kids up there.

I always find that a good test of whether an area is safe is to go there about 10pm after dark and have a walk around for a few hours.
Then ask yourself, would you be happy having your mother/wife/daughter doing that same walk, or having to live there.
You can tell a lot about a place by getting the last bus to it too. Try that one. I suppose some people here would be quite happy to live in Tallaght after doing that, but i bet 99% wouldnt.

Anyone who thinks Tallaght doent deserve its reputation go ahead and do a walk around about 10 pm during the summer. See how you feel about it afterwards.
My cousin lives in Ballyfermot. Now that is even worse than Tallaght.
Try a walkaround there.

Complete waffle I walk around Tallaght most evenings passing by women walkers on their own and in groups etc.

You clearly don't understand the size of Tallaght or are just spoofing to give an opinion.

Can't walk around Tallaght..... Hilarious.

moxin

On those Garda stats, they actually cover nearby areas to the named stations. Tallaght Garda station probably covers Firhouse and Blanch station does cover Castleknock and Clonee as well as Blanch itself.

The media(especially tabloids) has a role to play in the presentation of a perception of an area to the public. As most media journo's live in "desirable" areas, they will at their best try not to say a bad thing that has happened in that desirable area and try to say it happened in a nearby undesirable area instead. Example, if something bad happened in Glasnevin, its Finglas. If its bad in Castleknock, its reported as Blanch. Alot of the public laps this up as fact.

Bepolite

Okay here's one for you kind folks. Summerhill / NCR 5 bedroom house for 150K - would you?

I was looking around there the other day, I know it has the reputation for being Ireland's answer to downtown Mogadishu and I'm under no illusions about the area but I'm interested to hear peoples thoughts.

Burglaries don't look like too much of an issue but that's possibly because no-one has anything to nick.

alastair

There's good and bad streets in the vicinity. I've lived in the locality for 15 years and the amount of grief you're potentially exposed to is entirely dependent on whether there's a few bad apples amongst the local kids or not. There were a few bad years, but it's been better/quieter for a good while now.

There's actually a bit of gentrification in the area, but again - much variation from street to street. The main local problems are vandalism, fly tipping, anti-social activities rather than violent crime. Drug dealing in Summerhill is an ongoing issue, but joyriders are way down on what they used to be.

150k for a five bedroom place suggests some underlying problem, or a dicey location though.

Bepolite wrote: »

Okay here's one for you kind folks. Summerhill / NCR 5 bedroom house for 150K - would you?

I was looking around there the other day, I know it has the reputation for being Ireland's answer to downtown Mogadishu and I'm under no illusions about the area but I'm interested to hear peoples thoughts.

Burglaries don't look like too much of an issue but that's possibly because no-one has anything to nick.

Bepolite

alastair wrote: »

There's good and bad streets in the vicinity. I've lived in the locality for 15 years and the amount of grief you're potentially exposed to is entirely dependent on whether there's a few bad apples amongst the local kids or not. There were a few bad years, but it's been better/quieter for a good while now.

There's actually a bit of gentrification in the area, but again - much variation from street to street. The main local problems are vandalism, fly tipping, anti-social activities rather than violent crime. Drug dealing in Summerhill is an ongoing issue, but joyriders are way down on what they used to be.

150k for a five bedroom place suggests some underlying problem, or a dicey location though.

Excellent post and Thank you. I'm (intentionally) a bit off on my figures, but to be fair the house needs a lot of work - it's livable at the moment but barely.

Fly tipping is definitely a big issue, it's a shame as the area would be much nicer if it wasn't for the masses of litter. On the gentrification of the area, do you think this will be ongoing as house prices start to build again?

I don't mind an area with a bit of 'character' but obviously repeated muggings and break-ins tends to ruin anyones day.

handlemaster

Anybody have the breakdown of crime rates and there affect on property prices ?
I.e. is higher the rate correlate directly with property prices

McDook

I said walk around Tallaght for a few hours.
I didnt say walk around the whole of Tallaght in a few hours.
You can just walk around where you are thinking of buying if you want.
Dont take my word for it, and similarly dont take anyones word who tells you its a lovely place to bring up a family. Do it yourself if you are planning on buying there.
Or get the last bus back on a Friday night. Lovely experience.
Then come back and say you are going ahead with the buy.
For anyone living there already or from Tallaght. I call VI.
Try to look at things objectively. Im not trying to insult you. Just pointing out that there are nicer areas to want to bring up a family in. Dont take it so personally.

I would advise buyers to do this in any area they intend to buy. I just picked Tallaght because I know it so well.