Dublin GAA Discussion Thread MOD WARNING POST #2944

MayoAreMagic

Slattsy wrote: »

Verbal diarrhoea.

That people are struggling to pick any holes in...


At least Jaden is willing to discuss the topics. It is a sad state of affairs where on a gaa forum, the majority of people will do anything but discuss gaa.

Billy Mays

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It isn't being diluted though. Both are your county team... Man utd and City are two different clubs. This is more like man utd and man utd reserves. I know utd fans can be a dose, but Ive yet to hear of any of them booing their reserves...

Another completely irrelevant analogy

Godge

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Surely you just piggyback on what is already in place? You have a second management group at trial games and that is pretty much it.

Well that just sums up how ill-thought out this idea of yours is.

MayoAreMagic

Billy Mays wrote: »

Another completely irrelevant analogy

Can you explain why you think it is irrelevant? Just stating something doesn't make it so. I consider it quite relevant to the point. Furthermore, I have explained my points for anyone who has questioned them. If you cant do the same it says a lot about your points.

Jaden

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But again, Dublin have 20% of the population of the island, and are generating around, I would guestimate, 25% of the entire funding, not to mention their sponsorships. They are not operating on the same parameters of Mayo or Kerry (who both field junior county teams btw), and could easily support two teams to the level that Mayo or Kerry fund one team. So this idea of weakening the first side doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If they can fund two sides to the level that everyone else can fund one, then there is no weakening involved.

Also, even if there was some level of weakening, which I don't think the facts support, surely the level of players coming from the second side would more than cancel this out down the line? It is a bit like Michael O'Leary saying well Im not going to buy more planes to up my business because it is going to cost me something up front.

If the assertion that creating two teams from the same resource pool as one is bad for the prospects of the primary does not wash with you, then there is little purpose in continuing this particular point. I would have considered this to be self evident.

Your analogy is flawed, in that in this case, Mr O'Leary is increasing resources beyond what he already has, Dublin's player and resource pool is unchanged in our discussed scenario, it is simply diluted.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Surely you just piggyback on what is already in place? You have a second management group at trial games and that is pretty much it.
As for amalgamations, I have been involved in some and witnessed others at club level - trust me, that isn't true. Amalgamating with your neighbours/rivals is not an easy process. It takes an awful lot of patience.

In essence you want to create a new county team, but are brushing aside any logistical and cost difficulties involved. Do we hire new coaches, or just ask the current ones to work twice as hard? Sure you guys could save a mint by having your Junior and senior teams train and play at the same time, all the time.

I contend it is still more cost effective and useful to amalgamate county teams, than it is to divide an existing one. Objectively either looks good, but if you are one of the divided/combined counties, it's a whole different kettle of fish.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But if it is already happening, then this isn't specific to a Dublin B team. Your issue here is with transfer rules.

No, it's not specific, but a B team (even typing that is distasteful), creates an attainable goal for good players from weaker counties, and ergo can potentially affect where players play. Unless transferring is clamped down on. In which case, would transfers between Dublin teams be unrestricted? There's a litany of issues there.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It isn't being diluted though. Both are your county team... Man utd and City are two different clubs. This is more like man utd and man utd reserves. I know utd fans can be a dose, but Ive yet to hear of any of them booing their reserves...

But United's reserves don't play the first team in any competition, do they? In fact, why don't premiership teams field multiple first teams to begin with? Surely they have the resources to do so.

MayoAreMagic

Godge wrote: »

Well that just sums up how ill-thought out this idea of yours is.

Well at that stage you have your management and squad in place. If that isn't the definition of a team, then what is?

Also, these glib one-liner responses don't discourage me in the slightest, just in case you were hoping they would. Might have to change tack on that front.

Billy Mays

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Can you explain why you think it is irrelevant? Just stating something doesn't make it so. I consider it quite relevant to the point. Furthermore, I have explained my points for anyone who has questioned them. If you cant do the same it says a lot about your points.

It's completely irrelevant because, and bear with me here, Manchester United and Manchester United reserves do not compete in the same competitions against each other which is what you're arguing for here with a Dublin A and B team.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Why cant you give a straight answer?

I repeat - if Im so biased or unfair, then you should be able to counter my points pretty easily. So by all means, do that. It is a bit rich trying to pretend you have the moral high ground, when you duck and dive from fair points and observations.

I did answer your questions and other posters also cogently answered your questions.

Then when those questions were answered you quickly searched for another angle to "debate"/"bait".


Jayus if the Mayo football were as good at making points and looking for angles as you are the "mayo famine" would have been over years ago

gormdubhgorm

Ok mayo magic I will tell why Dublin football does not need a second team/development team:


1) It will only end up being a glorified u21 team or worse still a team full of non-Dubs who are sick of playing for thier own counties, thereby killing football in thier former county.


2) A new Dublin development team would need a home ground - since most of the lack of football development is on the the Southside in Soccer/Rugby areas a new "home ground" will have to be built


3) If this new Dublin development team is created it will play at a lower league level taken up a spot on another county. Can you imagine the furor from the county that is relegated as a result?

4) The issue of resources will be discussed AGAIN as the argument will be that the GAA should be concentrating on other counties and not Dublin


5) It would just turn into a blue elephant as there is no real need to further develop county football in Dublin.

If you were on about the restructuring of clubs in Dublin and the creation of more I would understand based on demographics and population, makes sense. If you were on about the development of hurling in Dublin it would make sense like the Fingal team, grand

But, to say Dublin need a second development football team is silly. Dublin are not the Kilkenny footballers.

6) Dublin have minor/u21/O'Byrne Cup/League and the Leinster championship to try out players of various stages of development and ability already.

7) The last thing that the lesser lights in Gaelic football need is a Dublin development team it has the potential to destroy Carlow/Kildare/Meath/Louth/Wicklow et al.

8) Who will support this Dublin development team they will have no fans/no fanbase?

9) It will just add another layer to Dublin GAA cost money, serve no real purpose and will just be another team for the sake of it.

MayoAreMagic

Jaden wrote: »

If the assertion that creating two teams from the same resource pool as one is bad for the prospects of the primary does not wash with you, then there is little purpose in continuing this particular point. I would have considered this to be self evident.

But you are assuming that this resource pool is the same as the pool of your rivals, and so splitting it would be weakening the team. Dublin have 10 times the population of their 2 closest rivals. They have the resources to spend twice what they currently spend on their football team and more.

Jaden wrote: »

Your analogy is flawed, in that in this case, Mr O'Leary is increasing resources beyond what he already has, Dublin's player and resource pool is unchanged in our discussed scenario, it is simply diluted.

I would disagree. Players would emerge from the B team and challenge on the first team - the Fentons of this world. Having 60 guys involved in intercounty football would be a good thing for Dublin. The second team would develop players for the first team.

Jaden wrote: »

In essence you want to create a new county team, but are brushing aside any logistical and cost difficulties involved. Do we hire new coaches, or just ask the current ones to work twice as hard? Sure you guys could save a mint by having your Junior and senior teams train and play at the same time, all the time.

You hire a second management team, same as any club team do when they start a second or third team.
As for cost difficulties - ah come on, if Leitrim can tog a county team every year, Dublin could tog a second team. We both know you are reaching with this 'times are hard' spiel. We all know Dublin have the resources to put out a second side without hindering the first side.

Jaden wrote: »

I contend it is still more cost effective and useful to amalgamate county teams, than it is to divide an existing one. Objectively either looks good, but if you are one of the divided/combined counties, it's a whole different kettle of fish.

But you aren't dividing an existing one... You are discounting the first 30 odd guys and going again. The same fans can follow both.
Amalgamating is wrought with difficulties in comparison. Both are possible, but then why would you want to stop guys playing intercounty football, instead of getting more guys playing intercounty football? Surely the inclusive move is to get more teams involved rather than join up teams that can field teams as they are?

Jaden wrote: »

No, it's not specific, but a B team (even typing that is distasteful), creates an attainable goal for good players from weaker counties, and ergo can potentially affect where players play. Unless transferring is clamped down on. In which case, would transfers between Dublin teams be unrestricted? There's a litany of issues there.

If you find it distasteful, you dont have to tog out. You can ignore them when they take to the field to represent you also if you like. But there are plenty guys out there who would love a chance at playing intercounty football and I don't think you finding it distasteful would really bother them. What is to be gained by stopping them for the sake of it?
As for transfers, well that is open to debate, but for arguments sake, we can say that once you are named in the first team squad, you stay in that team for the year. Same as the club system - i.e. the well developed and already existing model of my suggestion...

Jaden wrote: »

But United's reserves don't play the first team in any competition, do they? In fact, why don't premiership teams field multiple first teams to begin with? Surely they have the resources to do so.

They don't, but I didn't realise we have to ape the English football league in every way once the comparison is made... Why cant they play each other? Barcelona, Real Madrid etc have second teams that take part in the Spanish league.
Now fair enough, I would put them on either side of the draw in leinster. But if the second Dublin team were good enough to make a leinster final, then they are there on merit then best of luck to them, I wouldn't be complaining. However, I would suggest it would be brought into the league first and foremost and tested from there.

MayoAreMagic

Billy Mays wrote: »

It's completely irrelevant because, and bear with me here, Manchester United and Manchester United reserves do not compete in the same competitions against each other which is what you're arguing for here with a Dublin A and B team.

So the entire debate revolves around how man utd put their teams out... The gaa cant develop and/or grow because man utd and man utd reserves are not in competition with each other.

How about Barcelona? They have a B team... :rolleyes:

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I did answer your questions and other posters also cogently answered your questions.

Then when those questions were answered you quickly searched for another angle to "debate"/"bait".


Jayus if the Mayo football were as good at making points and looking for angles as you are the "mayo famine" would have been over years ago

You addressed some points early on. But I don't agree that other posters answered my questions, they tried to dismiss them, or tried to discredit the guy asking them. Truth be told, if what people are claiming is correct, then my posts should be getting picked apart. They aren't.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

So the entire debate revolves around how man utd put their teams out... The gaa cant develop and/or grow because man utd and man utd reserves are not in competition with each other.

How about Barcelona? They have a B team... :rolleyes:

Yes but the Barcelona B team cannot be promoted and they are basically an u21 team Dublin already have an u21 team.

In fact in this years u21 championsjip Dublin fielded an entire team of u21s none of which were in the senior panel at time.

Unlike other teams like Mayo who played senior panel members Loftus and D.O'Connor. :eek:

Squareball

Where do people find the time???????????????????????

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ok mayo magic I will tell why Dublin football does not need a second team/development team:


1) It will only end up being a glorified u21 team or worse still a team full of non-Dubs who are sick of playing for thier own counties, thereby killing football in thier former county.

As I pointed out to jaden, transfer issues isn't specific to Dublin 2nds. As for glorified u21s, that isnt who took the field at the weekend...

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

2) A new Dublin development team would need a home ground - since most of the lack of football development is on the the Southside in Soccer/Rugby areas a new "home ground" will have to be built.

Double-headers with Dublin 1st team, and then the idle parnell park for other games.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

3) If this new Dublin development team is created it will play at a lower league level taken up a spot on another county. Can you imagine the furor from the county that is relegated as a result?

If Dublin B relegate mayo, I'll be blaming mayo, not Dublin B, so no, no furore...

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

4) The issue of resources will be discussed AGAIN as the argument will be that the GAA should be concentrating on other counties and not Dublin

I would completely disagree on that. Surely this would be seen as a way of balancing things up a bit by other counties? However, you should probably realise, resources are going to be discussed for as long as there is an imbalance in them, and so they should be to be honest about it.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

5) It would just turn into a blue elephant as there is no real need to further develop county football in Dublin.

A crazy assertion in my eyes. A football mad county, that boasts 1/5 of the population, which only togs out 15 players to represent it... Development is needed there man.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If you were on about the restructuring of clubs in Dublin and the creation of more I would understand based on demographics and population, makes sense. If you were on about the development of hurling in Dublin it would make sense like the Fingal team, grand

But surely counties are de facto large scale clubs. How can the logic be ok for clubs but not for counties when they are in essence the same thing on different scales?

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

6) Dublin have minor/u21/O'Byrne Cup/League and the Leinster championship to try out players of various stages of development and ability already.

They also have, by a distance the biggest population of footballers who are good enough to play intercounty football, but never will play intercounty football.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

7) The last thing that the lesser lights in Gaelic football need is a Dublin development team it has the potential to destroy Carlow/Kildare/Meath/Louth/Wicklow et al.

Surely that only proves that these lads deserve to play intercounty football? Why would you prevent them doing that?

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

8) Who will support this Dublin development team they will have no fans/no fanbase?

Are you saying the dubs wouldn't support their own team?

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

9) It will just add another layer to Dublin GAA cost money, serve no real purpose and will just be another team for the sake of it.

It serves the purpose of getting high level footballers playing intercounty football. That is what the game is about at the top level.

gormdubhgorm

Squareball wrote: »

Where do people find the time???????????????????????

High unemployment rate in Mayo? :rolleyes:

Godge

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

You hire a second management team, same as any club team do when they start a second or third team.
As for cost difficulties - ah come on, if Leitrim can tog a county team every year, Dublin could tog a second team. We both know you are reaching with this 'times are hard' spiel. We all know Dublin have the resources to put out a second side without hindering the first side.

.

This is one of the biggest (of many) flaws in your argument.

Dublin may well have the money, but your suggestion just reflects the ignorance that is widespread around the country about what Dublin invests money in.

Dublin doesn't waste money on the county team with warm-weather training every couple of months the way some county teams that haven't won an All-Ireland for decades do. Instead the resources generated in Dublin go into the club scene, into providing opportunities for kids, for club players, for training and upskilling and for developing club facilities. This investment at club level is aimed at driving participation and making GAA the sport of choice of ordinary people in Dublin.

I would not want to see resources taken away from clubs and devoted to the preparation of an unnecessary second county team. Much better that the money is spent at local level.

Godge

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It serves the purpose of getting high level footballers playing intercounty football. That is what the game is about at the top level.

Yes, but the Dublin County Board isn't about the game at the top level, it is about driving participation rates upwards and encouraging the game at club level, particularly the juveniles.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

As I pointed out to jaden, transfer issues isn't specific to Dublin 2nds. As for glorified u21s, that isnt who took the field at the weekend...

It was a large percentage of u21s mixed with minors playing in the "ultra competitive" world of the O'Byrne cup :rolleyes:

Double-headers with Dublin 1st team, and then the idle parnell park for other games

A pitch on the southside would be needed as this would be the area Dublin GAA would need to target

A second county board would need to be formed and this would drain the resources of the GAA further

If Dublin B relegate mayo, I'll be blaming mayo, not Dublin B, so no, no furore...

You would be blaming the curse no doubt....

I would completely disagree on that. Surely this would be seen as a way of balancing things up a bit by other counties? However, you should probably realise, resources are goig to be discussed for as long as there is an imbalance in them, and so they should be to be honest about it.

How would it balance things up a bit it would only make things worse as I said a second dublin team in whatever guise would dominate the lower echelons of the GAA.

A crazy assertion in my eyes. A football mad county, that boasts 1/5 of the population, which only togs out 15 players to represent it... Development is needed there man.

You erroneously assume that 1/5 of the population has an interest in the GAA.

But surely counties are de facto large scale clubs. How can the logic be ok for clubs but not for counties when they are in essence the same thing on different scales?

Because a club serves a community an identity .

A county team is NOT like a club team any GAA person will tell you that neighbours, brothers, uncles, cousins primary school friends who all grew up together play for clubs. Any GAA person will tell you that.

To say that a county team is a defacto club team just with a larger scale is a very un-GAA thing to say.

They also have, by a distance the biggest population of footballers who are good enough to play intercounty football, but never will play intercounty football.

Bring in a Granny rule for other counties like the rule Leitrim have Declan Darcy etc in the 90s. Then they could play in any county that they are eligible for.

Surely that only proves that these lads deserve to play intercounty football? Why would you prevent them doing that?

As I said Granny rule Dub with Mayo Granny can play for Mayo if he has not played senior for Dublin, Dub with Carlow Granny play for Carlow and so on

Are you saying the dubs wouldn't support their own team?

Yes it is not thier own team it is a manufactured team.

No identity, no history, nothing

It serves the purpose of getting high level footballers playing intercounty football. That is what the game is about at the top level.

It would suck players from other counties into "the team". Even if there was a rule where only Dubs could play for "second team" do you think u21s and minors would take pride in playing for the second rate team? When if they were good enough they could already progress through the age groups

Billy Mays

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

So the entire debate revolves around how man utd put their teams out... The gaa cant develop and/or grow because man utd and man utd reserves are not in competition with each other.

How about Barcelona? They have a B team... :rolleyes:

You took that from what I posted?



3/10 must try harder

Jaden

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But you are assuming that this resource pool is the same as the pool of your rivals, and so splitting it would be weakening the team. Dublin have 10 times the population of their 2 closest rivals. They have the resources to spend twice what they currently spend on their football team and more.

I made no such comparison. I will state my point of view plainly once more:
If Dublin field a second senior football team, it will by it's very existence weaken the prospects of the first. Other counties are not relevant to this statement. Do you accept that this assertion is true? If not, there is no point in continuing.

I'm unsure what use population comparisons are to this, population is no indication of playing pool.

Mayo have approx 130K people living in the county (2011 figure).
Dublin have approx 1.35M people living in the county. (2016 figure).

However:
Mayo have 10,645 registered players in the county. 1:13 ratio.
Dublin have 39,197 registered players in the county. 1:33 ratio.
(Cork have 33,832, our nearest rivals).

So Dublin have an advantage of about 15% over the county with the next highest player pool.

The player resources gap is nowhere near what you claim it to be. In fact, your population statement is grossly misleading. What is listed above, is accurate and far more relevant. End of.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I would disagree. Players would emerge from the B team and challenge on the first team - the Fentons of this world. Having 60 guys involved in intercounty football would be a good thing for Dublin. The second team would develop players for the first team.

It's fine to disagree, but this whole point is just an opinion, you provide no evidence to support it. In fact, if you thought this would help the squad, you'd be pushing for the Mayo seniors to adopt this idea. To be honest, Mayo's shortcomings have roots in the lack of depth of the squad, it would probably be of more value to their setup than Dublins.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

You hire a second management team, same as any club team do when they start a second or third team.
As for cost difficulties - ah come on, if Leitrim can tog a county team every year, Dublin could tog a second team. We both know you are reaching with this 'times are hard' spiel. We all know Dublin have the resources to put out a second side without hindering the first side.

You are confusing couldn't with shouldn't. Dublin could certainly do this, but for reasons listed in point one, they shouldn't. End of.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But you aren't dividing an existing one... You are discounting the first 30 odd guys and going again. The same fans can follow both.
Amalgamating is wrought with difficulties in comparison. Both are possible, but then why would you want to stop guys playing intercounty football, instead of getting more guys playing intercounty football? Surely the inclusive move is to get more teams involved rather than join up teams that can field teams as they are?

Yet again I swill state, you are dividing the resources available to our Senior team - this is a bad thing for Dublin. Case closed.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If you find it distasteful, you dont have to tog out. You can ignore them when they take to the field to represent you also if you like. But there are plenty guys out there who would love a chance at playing intercounty football and I don't think you finding it distasteful would really bother them. What is to be gained by stopping them for the sake of it?

You should really take this up with Kilkenny, seeing as they deliberately deny the prospect of Senior IC football to EVERY SINGLE PLAYER IN THE COUNTY. Would this not be the appropriate place to start on the crusade to ensure players get a chance to play for their counties? I'm touched that you are so concerned for the plight of Dublin players, but are you sure your concerns are of pure intention?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

As for transfers, well that is open to debate, but for arguments sake, we can say that once you are named in the first team squad, you stay in that team for the year. Same as the club system - i.e. the well developed and already existing model of my suggestion...

So the rules would be the same as they are for any IC transfer?

There we have it, in no uncertain terms, you are calling for Dublin to be split in two.
Tres Drole.

corny

Will this obvious trolling, wrapped as spirited debate lark be tolerated indefinitely?

BonnieSituation

Probably until the league starts.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Probably until the league starts.

I suppose it is like the O'Byrne Cup it is only treated as a warm up then the refs try out new rules later on in the year.

I find it amusing though as any fella with a username MayoAreMagic posting in a Dublin forum is only there to kill time between sheep dips.

It can't be taken too seriously.

By the same token though I think a lot of what s/he said could be applied to the Dublin hurlers.

I would like more money resources lashed into hurling and more things tried.

Similar to the Fingal thing except on a bigger scale.

Because I think it would be an awful shame to let the recent achievements of Dublin hurling just fizzle out.

More attention needs to be given to the Dublin hurlers especially since the footballers are going so well and naturally taking all the limelight.

It might be more aspirational then reality, but a Cuala all-Ireland win could be the real shot in the arm Dublin hurling needs.

MayoAreMagic

Curious that fair and reasonable points are cast as 'trolling'
Surely that type of purposely dismissive attitude to fair points is the textbook definition of what trolling actually is...

I am just seeing the same points being repeated despite them being countered already... That makes this feigned indignation all the more ridiculous. I had hoped people might be able to respond objectively but there has been little of it; just the same tired, myopic rhetoric.

Godge

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I am just seeing the same points being repeated despite them being countered already...

I have exactly the same problem:

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

With that many players in the county there must be a lot of guys who could make it but don't get the same chance they might get elsewhere.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Surely more guys getting exposed to intercounty football within a county is a good thing for that county?

.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

. Just a second selection from Dublin, say outside the first 30 or whatever, putting in a team. Basically Dublin B for want of a better term.
.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It isn't though, it isn't splitting the county at all, it is getting more guys exposed to top level football. .

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The give more people, who already have the ability to do so, a chance to showcase and develop their skills at the top level?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But you aren't dividing an existing one... You are discounting the first 30 odd guys and going again.
. But there are plenty guys out there who would love a chance at playing intercounty football . What is to be gained by stopping them for the sake of it?

.

It gets boring after a while, doesn't it?

gormdubhgorm

Godge wrote: »

I have exactly the same problem:














It gets boring after a while, doesn't it?

Mayo are used to Déjà vu, in fairness....

MayoAreMagic

Jaden wrote: »

Mayo have 10,645 registered players in the county. 1:13 ratio.
Dublin have 39,197 registered players in the county. 1:33 ratio.
(Cork have 33,832, our nearest rivals).

Can we see some background on these figures please?

The rest of your post I have already disproven...

MayoAreMagic

Godge wrote: »

It gets boring after a while, doesn't it?

If it can be shown to be wrong, I have no problem dropping it.
Ball is in your court godge...

Godge

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If it can be shown to be wrong, I have no problem dropping it.
Ball is in your court godge...

You keep repeating the same argument, despite it being repeatedly debunked. You place an importance on playing county football that nobody else on this thread has agreed with. You confuse club and county football as being the same.

County football is not the main purpose of the GAA and is certainly not the main focus of the Dublin County Board. Increasing participation, particularly at juvenile level is the main purpose of Dublin's expenditure on GAA.

You just don't get it, hence you repeat the same tired argument. Any money spent on a second county team would take money from the club scene in Dublin and that is unacceptable to me and most Dublin supporters.