Formula 1 2014: General Discussion Thread

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

If Alonso had the car to compete or suit his varied "style", he would still be beating Raikkonen, yes.

That was not my question.

You are replying to something along the lines of the current car where it does in fact suit Alonso more than Kimi's style.

Jordan 199

OSI wrote: »

Supposedly the "Canadian billionaire" that was sniffing around Sauber is now switching his focus to Marussia. Has a very similar air to it of the whole Lotus-Mansoor Ijaz episode. Did anything come of that in the end?

Mansoor Ijaz. Is that the Quantum Motorsports fella?

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

That was not my question.

You are replying to something along the lines of the current car where it does in fact suit Alonso more than Kimi's style.

Ok then, I'll put it this way then.

Alonso beats Raikkonen when they both have the car they want under them.

And this Ferrari isn't suited to Alonso more than Raikkonen, Alonso is just making the most of what he has got.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

Ok then, I'll put it this way then.

Alonso beats Raikkonen when they both have the car they want under them.

How can you back that up?

Gintonious wrote: »

And this Ferrari isn't suited to Alonso more than Raikkonen, Alonso is just making the most of what he has got.

I am afraid you are wrong there

Frank Bullitt

How can you back that up?

In equal machinery as we speak.

Alonso 121pts
Raikkonen 41pts

I believe its also 2-1 to Alonso in the championships as well, with Alonso beating Raikkonen in 2005 when you could argue that he had the car he wanted under him.

I am afraid you are wrong there

Care to enlighten me then? Alonso has been out preforming his car since 2010, and also doesn't really make excuses like other drivers.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

In equal machinery as we speak.

Alonso 121pts
Raikkonen 41pts

I believe its also 2-1 to Alonso in the championships as well, with Alonso beating Raikkonen in 2005 when you could argue that he had the car he wanted under him.
.

Yes alonso has almost 3 times the points over kimi but you are still either missing or evading my question.

Yes they are in equal machinery, But again that car was built to suit Alonso. Not Kimi.

2005??

Not making any excuses for anyone but would reliability come into it??

Gintonious wrote: »

Care to enlighten me then? Alonso has been out preforming his car since 2010, and also doesn't really make excuses like other drivers.

Frankly Ferrari would be the biggest bunch of idiots if they wouldn't build the team and car around Alonso. No point in building the car how Massa or Gene or De La Rosa likes it. Certainly there was no point in building the team around Massa considering how he performed. I think they learned from their mistake when they didn't do it for Kimi in 2007-2009. Sure now they'll also have Kimi's input when designing the updates and next years car, but there is no denying the fact that priority number one has been Alonso.

Frank Bullitt

Yes alonso has almost 3 times the points over kimi but you are still either missing or evading my question.

Yes they are in equal machinery, But again that car was built to suit Alonso. Not Kimi.

2005??

Not making any excuses for anyone but would reliability come into it??

I have already answered your question above, I told you that I firmly believe Alonso beats Raikkonen in any car. Simple as that.

And again, the car that Ferrari have built was built for their drivers, not driver. And I would have imagined that Kimi wouldn't have returned to the team if he knew he was going to be a number 2?

So if I am missing your question then please, ask again.

Frankly Ferrari would be the biggest bunch of idiots if they wouldn't build the team and car around Alonso. No point in building the car how Massa or Gene or De La Rosa likes it. Certainly there was no point in building the team around Massa considering how he performed. I think they learned from their mistake when they didn't do it for Kimi in 2007-2009. Sure now they'll also have Kimi's input when designing the updates and next years car, but there is no denying the fact that priority number one has been Alonso.

Learn from their mistake? Massa firmly beat Kimi in 2008 and was beating him up until his accident in 2009. In 2007 and 2008 they were winning races with their cars, and in 2008 Massa was beating Kimi in a car that would have been developed from the 2007 car, which he won his championship in.

And with your reference to Alonso being number 1 now, I would hope so considering his performances over the last few years.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

I have already answered your question above, I told you that I firmly believe Alonso beats Raikkonen in any car. Simple as that.

And again, the car that Ferrari have built was built for their drivers, not driver. And I would have imagined that Kimi wouldn't have returned to the team if he knew he was going to be a number 2?

So if I am missing your question then please, ask again.



Learn from their mistake? Massa firmly beat Kimi in 2008 and was beating him up until his accident in 2009. In 2007 and 2008 they were winning races with their cars, and in 2008 Massa was beating Kimi in a car that would have been developed from the 2007 car, which he won his championship in.

And with your reference to Alonso being number 1 now, I would hope so considering his performances over the last few years.

No.
I never said number one or number two driver.
Do you think Ferrari was going to build a car to suit Kimi this year?
If you do you are watching the wrong sport.
And yes. I do believe it would be a toss up between Kimi and Alonso in a car that perfectly suited both of them.


The car was built more to Alonsos style.
As I already said. Why would they wrap it around Massa?

Yes. Massa did do a better job than Kimi in 2008 but this is what I am saying. Ferrari made the mistake of not building the car around their better driver ( Kimi ) As for beating him until his accident. Do you honestly think that Kimi said. " I suppose I had better try now as i tall lies on my shoulders"
I think not. How many others tried and failed to drive the F60?
Even Fisi who was fast in the force india could not do anything with it.
Their test drivers could do nothing with it. Yet. Kimi did manage to get great results with it. Do you think this was just coincidence?

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

No.
I never said number one or number two driver.
Do you think Ferrari was going to build a car to suit Kimi this year?
If you do you are watching the wrong sport.
And yes. I do believe it would be a toss up between Kimi and Alonso in a car that perfectly suited both of them.


The car was built more to Alonsos style.
As I already said. Why would they wrap it around Massa?

Yes. Massa did do a better job than Kimi in 2008 but this is what I am saying. Ferrari made the mistake of not building the car around their better driver ( Kimi ) As for beating him until his accident. Do you honestly think that Kimi said. " I suppose I had better try now as i tall lies on my shoulders"
I think not. How many others tried and failed to drive the F60?
Even Fisi who was fast in the force india could not do anything with it.
Their test drivers could do nothing with it. Yet. Kimi did manage to get great results with it. Do you think this was just coincidence?

So you think that Ferrari favoured Massa for 2008 even though Kimi was the reigning champion? Are you sure it was nothing to do with Massa just outdriving him that year and into 2009? No doubt that Kimi did get decent results in the car, but he wasn't doing anything like what Alonso is or has been doing with his car.

And surely to god, Raikkonen joining this year expecting a car not to his liking is a bit far fetched. Alonso doesn't have the car suited towards him either right now, and he still gets results that are considered impressive. Could it be that he is a better driver?

And this is where it comes full circle for me. You go on about "if Kimi had the car he needed under him etc", but nor does Alonso have the car he desires, and here he is beating Kimi in the same situation. Alonso clearly can adapt and perform given the circumstances, he adapts. That to me is the gulf between them.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

So you think that Ferrari favoured Massa for 2008 even though Kimi was the reigning champion? Are you sure it was nothing to do with Massa just outdriving him that year and into 2009? No doubt that Kimi did get decent results in the car, but he wasn't doing anything like what Alonso is or has been doing with his car.

And surely to god, Raikkonen joining this year expecting a car not to his liking is a bit far fetched. Alonso doesn't have the car suited towards him either right now, and he still gets results that are considered impressive. Could it be that he is a better driver?

And this is where it comes full circle for me. You go on about "if Kimi had the car he needed under him etc", but nor does Alonso have the car he desires, and here he is beating Kimi in the same situation. Alonso clearly can adapt and perform given the circumstances, he adapts. That to me is the gulf between them.

I think you are deliberately going round in circles.

In 2008/09 Ferrari favored nobody, Just built the cars to race, They happened not to suit Kimi and as a result quite possibly lost another championship or 2 Had they favoured their better driver.


Again, you are evading my point,
Show me where I said that Alonso has the car he desires?
I did in fact say the design and characteristics of the car are more suited to his style and not suited to Kimi's in any form or fashion. Have you failed to notice the car coming to Kimi recently?
Does this not pint out anything to you?

I am prepared to wait until next season to get our answers.

Again I would say there is nothing between them.

Alonso is a good driver, there is no doubt about that, but he is not this God almighty some people make him out to be,
After all. I Rookie embarrassed him to such an extent in 2007 he resorted to dirty tactics. ( which is not too uncommon for him. )

counterlock

vectra wrote: »

Alonso is a good driver, there is no doubt about that, but he is not this God almighty some people make him out to be,
After all. I Rookie embarrassed him to such an extent in 2007 he resorted to dirty tactics. ( which is not too uncommon for him. )

This is the crux of your argument. Your an Alonso hater. That same rookie turned out to be pretty good didn't he?

Tell me what dirty tactics he used in 2007 and also what other instances of these he's used. That way we can at least stop beating around the bush and get to the point of your monthly postings Raikonnen

vectra

counterlock wrote: »

This is the crux of your argument. Your an Alonso hater. That same rookie turned out to be pretty good didn't he?

Tell me what dirty tactics he used in 2007 and also what other instances of these he's used. That way we can at least stop beating around the bush and get to the point of your monthly postings Raikonnen

First off I am not an Alonso hater,
I just do not think he is the holy grail of formula one as he is made out to be.

Dirty Tactics.

Hmm.
Do the words Pit Stop ring a bell?

counterlock

vectra wrote: »

First off I am not an Alonso hater,
I just do not think he is the holy grail of formula one as he is made out to be.

Dirty Tactics.

Hmm.
Do the words Pit Stop ring a bell?

They do. But keep going, its starting to get interesting

vectra

counterlock wrote: »

They do. But keep going, its starting to get interesting

Would you like a packet of popcorn and a can of coke?

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

I think you are deliberately going round in circles.

In 2008/09 Ferrari favored nobody, Just built the cars to race, They happened not to suit Kimi and as a result quite possibly lost another championship or 2 Had they favoured their better driver.


Again, you are evading my point,
Show me where I said that Alonso has the car he desires?
I did in fact say the design and characteristics of the car are more suited to his style and not suited to Kimi's in any form or fashion. Have you failed to notice the car coming to Kimi recently?
Does this not pint out anything to you?

I am prepared to wait until next season to get our answers.

Again I would say there is nothing between them.

Alonso is a good driver, there is no doubt about that, but he is not this God almighty some people make him out to be,
After all. I Rookie embarrassed him to such an extent in 2007 he resorted to dirty tactics. ( which is not too uncommon for him. )

If anyone is going around in circles its you I'm afraid. And is there a huge difference in saying that the car is what Alonso desires over the characteristics suiting him? You are trying to back out of your implied point that this car is mainly for Alonso and that is why he is hammering Kimi, when really its Alonso just doing a good job in that car.

I haven't failed to notice that Kimi has been picking up his form, but are you telling me that it is acceptable for a driver like him to take this long to adapt to the machinery he has been given? And that its also a valid excuse for his performances?

And I seem to remember Alonso being embarrassed? From what I remember, he finished equal on points with him that year, even after falling out with the upper management of the team for back tracking on their promise. And the same driver who "embarrassed" him that year, won the title the next year and is leading the championship as we speak, so when you out it that it was just any ol rookie, it wasn't, it was a McLaren youth driver who was part of the team before Alonso was even in F1, and had miles and miles of testing before the season started. So trying to make out that Alonso was " embarrassed" by some blow in pay driver, just wont work.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

If anyone is going around in circles its you I'm afraid. And is there a huge difference in saying that the car is what Alonso desires over the characteristics suiting him? You are trying to back out of your implied point that this car is mainly for Alonso and that is why he is hammering Kimi, when really its Alonso just doing a good job in that car.

I haven't failed to notice that Kimi has been picking up his form, but are you telling me that it is acceptable for a driver like him to take this long to adapt to the machinery he has been given? And that its also a valid excuse for his performances?

And I seem to remember Alonso being embarrassed? From what I remember, he finished equal on points with him that year, even after falling out with the upper management of the team for back tracking on their promise. And the same driver who "embarrassed" him that year, won the title the next year and is leading the championship as we speak, so when you out it that it was just any ol rookie, it wasn't, it was a McLaren youth driver who was part of the team before Alonso was even in F1, and had miles and miles of testing before the season started. So trying to make out that Alonso was " embarrassed" by some blow in pay driver, just wont work.

I dont see the point nor the need to get this through to you.

Kimi joined Ferrari this year.

When was this car designed and based on which drivers style?

There can only be one answer.

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

I dont see the point nor the need to get this through to you.

Kimi joined Ferrari this year.

When was this car designed and based on which drivers style?

There can only be one answer.

More excuse making. The car was designed for their 2 drivers, simple as that. This car simply doesnt suit either driver, but you have Alonso getting the results he gets because he can adapt, I have said this before.

You seem to have an issue with just admitting that Kimi has simply been out performed this year by Alonso, I think its almost mathematically impossible now for Kimi to catch up with him.

The stats speak for themselves on this, so you can make all the excuses you want and use straw-man arguments until the cows come home. Results and performance and are all that matters in this case, and its clear as day.

Daniel S

Kimi is far more likeable.
Alonso is a better driver.
The car was designed for Alonso, but it's so shíte it isn't really helping him. It's just as bad for both of them.

Can we leave it at that?

Some drive by Jev at the end of the race! Anyone think Rosberg can still pull it back?

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

More excuse making. The car was designed for their 2 drivers, simple as that.

Now you have me confused.

Please explain how could Ferrari design a car with a driver that is not in their team at the time?

At this point I am sure you have the whole problem sussed. Maybe you should give Mattiacci a phone call and explain to him and Ferrari bosses that they have been firing all the wrong people and you can explain to them why exactly this is.

And as for Alonso beating Kimi fair and square and making excuses.

Take yesterday for instance. How many places did Kimi miss out on because of slower pitstops?
Have you been following those all year as well?
Kimi's are around 1 second and more slower than Alonso's for most races this year.

You surely know how much 1 second counts for on track.

Donnelly117

Daniel S wrote: »

Some drive by Jev at the end of the race! Anyone think Rosberg can still pull it back?

I am very pro Hamilton and anti Rosberg, but Id hate to see the championship come down to mechanical failures in the end. Hopefully both cars will run the last 5 races with no issues. As it stands they are almost even on points so it would be interesting to so how it plays out on track. But I obviousy want Lewis to win

zombieHanalei

2007-2009* (44 races)
|RAIKKONEN|MASSA
Qualifying|19|25
Points|195|213
Wins|7|9
Podiums|22|21

(* Stats to end of 2009 German GP as Massa had the freak accident in the next race that ruled him out until the next season)

Statistically, Felipe shaded this, although there are suggestions that Ferrari began to favour Filipe from the middle of 2008 as Santander wanted Kimi out to be replaced by Fernando. Although had this been the case, it would be hard to imagine Kimi returning.

2010-2013 (77 races)
|ALONSO|MASSA
Qualifying|59|18
Points|1029|496
Wins|11|0
Podiums|42|8


2014 (14 races)
|ALONSO|RAIKKONEN
Qualifying|12|2
Points|133|45
Wins|0|0
Podiums|2|0



What the above statistics suggest; There wasn't much between Felipe and Kimi overall in their time as team mates and both have been comprehensively outclassed by Fernando.

However, it stands to reason that Ferrari are now Alonso's team in the same way they were Schumacher's team, so both Kimi and Felipe were fighting an uphill battle already as in a way they're not just fighting their team mate, they're effectively fighting the team. When it was Kimi's team in 2007 there was nothing between them (him and Massa) until about 4 races to go when Kimi pulled an incredible run of form out of the bag to take the title from a seemingly impossible position.

I think for Kimi it's a number of things right now; first, Ferrari is still Fernando's team, but that aside, Alonso is probably the best driver in the field. Good and all as he is though, I don't believe he is so much better than Kimi as this season suggests. I think motivation is important for Kimi, he moved to Ferrari to try and win another title, and it was apparent very quickly that 2014 was going to be a write off for Ferrari, so it would be hard to blame him for not giving a f**k in some ways, give him a good car and he will deliver. I believe Alonso is quicker overall but given a good car Kimi would put it up to him, and as we saw in 2007 Alonso does not like it when a team mate puts it up to him.

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Now you have me confused.

Please explain how could Ferrari design a car with a driver that is not in their team at the time?

At this point I am sure you have the whole problem sussed. Maybe you should give Mattiacci a phone call and explain to him and Ferrari bosses that they have been firing all the wrong people and you can explain to them why exactly this is.

And as for Alonso beating Kimi fair and square and making excuses.

Take yesterday for instance. How many places did Kimi miss out on because of slower pitstops?
Have you been following those all year as well?
Kimi's are around 1 second and more slower than Alonso's for most races this year.

You surely know how much 1 second counts for on track.

Well Kimi drove for the team before, so he isn't a new driver, they would have known far in advance how he likes the car.

I know exactly how much one second costs, but how much time and positions is he missing out on by qualifying further down the grid.

Another thing, I am not denying that Alonso is the de facto number 1, he has earned that from beating his teammates convincingly, as shown by the statistics posted above.

And as for your reference for me having the issues solved, the overall issue is Ferrari not producing the goods, hence the changes in the team as of late. From the sounds of it though, for Kimi to catch up with Alonso, they would need to produce 2 different cars going by your logic. And all we have to do is just wait for Kimi to get the car then he can match Alonso, right? So its perfectly ok for a driver who is on the salary of Kimi, multiple wins and a championship to take this long to begin to catch up with Alonso. Makes sense now.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

Well Kimi drove for the team before, so he isn't a new driver, they would have known far in advance how he likes the car.

I know exactly how much one second costs, but how much time and positions is he missing out on by qualifying further down the grid.

Another thing, I am not denying that Alonso is the de facto number 1, he has earned that from beating his teammates convincingly, as shown by the statistics posted above.

And as for your reference for me having the issues solved, the overall issue is Ferrari not producing the goods, hence the changes in the team as of late. From the sounds of it though, for Kimi to catch up with Alonso, they would need to produce 2 different cars going by your logic. And all we have to do is just wait for Kimi to get the car then he can match Alonso, right? So its perfectly ok for a driver who is on the salary of Kimi, multiple wins and a championship to take this long to begin to catch up with Alonso. Makes sense now.

Well he also arrived in 2007 and possibly the car suited his style moreso than this one,
Hence he won the wdc that year.
They failed to side with him as I already pointed out in 2008/2009 as apparently also pointed out above Santander wanted his seat for golden boy who incidently walked from McLaren simply because he was not the number one there.


I wonder why Alonso has not won a wdc frop them when they were concentrating solely on him.

Again pointed out above, Ferrari are built around him now.

zombieHanalei

http://f1bias.com/2012/04/05/truth-about-kimi-ferrari-santander-2008/

This is well worth a read if you have 10+ minutes to spare, a fascinating insight into the carry on at Ferrari regarding Kimi in 2008. The only reason I have a bit of skepticism is I don't understand how Kimi would be willing to return after being treated so badly. But at the same time Kimi also strikes me as the type of person who doesn't do grudges.

Can't believe how quickly they turned on him given the lengths di Montezemolo went to to secure Kimi in the first place (when he effectively forced Schumacher into retirement in 2006)

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Well he also arrived in 2007 and possibly the car suited his style moreso than this one,
Hence he won the wdc that year.
They failed to side with him as I already pointed out in 2008/2009 as apparently also pointed out above Santander wanted his seat for golden boy who incidently walked from McLaren simply because he was not the number one there.


I wonder why Alonso has not won a wdc frop them when they were concentrating solely on him.

Again pointed out above, Ferrari are built around him now.

Well I will say again, he was out performed by Massa in 2008, so why would Ferrari put all their backing behind him when he was being beaten in a car that he was partly responsible for developing. They didn't fail to side with him as you say, more that they clearly went with the faster driver that season.

Alonso left McLaren because of the issues with the management, plenty of that has come to light now. He was promised No.1 status from Ron Dennis who then backtracked on that.

You could go into a multitude of reasons why he hasn't won a championship with them, the strategy flaw at the last race is the obvious one in 2010, and realistically he probably shouldn't have been in a position to even compete for it in 2012, but he still brought it to the last race.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

Well I will say again, he was out performed by Massa in 2008, so why would Ferrari put all their backing behind him when he was being beaten in a car that he was partly responsible for developing. They didn't fail to side with him as you say, more that they clearly went with the faster driver that season.

Alonso left McLaren because of the issues with the management, plenty of that has come to light now. He was promised No.1 status from Ron Dennis who then backtracked on that.

You could go into a multitude of reasons why he hasn't won a championship with them, the strategy flaw at the last race is the obvious one in 2010, and realistically he probably shouldn't have been in a position to even compete for it in 2012, but he still brought it to the last race.

There you go..
YOU SAID IT..!!

About time you woke and smelled the coffee where Alonso is concerned.
If he is not No. 1 he is not happy.

So where do you think he stands in Ferrari?

Hopefully these rumours will come to something and he will move on to another team.
Kimi appears to be happy about next years car, Hopefully that would happen and he would slap Alonso's ass.

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

There you go..
YOU SAID IT..!!

About time you woke and smelled the coffee where Alonso is concerned.
If he is not No. 1 he is not happy.

So where do you think he stands in Ferrari?

Hopefully these rumours will come to something and he will move on to another team.
Kimi appears to be happy about next years car, Hopefully that would happen and he would slap Alonso's ass.

And where did I deny it? Point that out to me please. It's well documented that he wanted No.1 status in McLaren. Ron Dennis did promise it and then went back on that during the season.

Alonso clearly stands as number 1 in the team, and he does it by leaving it clear as day that he is the No.1 by beating his team mate in Ferrari, and convincingly at that.

And how they anyone be happy with a car that hasn't even been built yet, let alone turn a wheel. The simulator? "I just think that I can learn nothing in the simulator". So your claim on that one is a bit thin.

It's clear now that, despite the evidence in hand (points, finishing positions, performance in the same car to date) you will argue to the end of the world that Kimi is somehow better than Alonso. I will give you credit though, you said you had faith that Kimi would be up there if he had the car, and faith is described as a belief in spite of, against or without evidence, so you are spot on actually.

counterlock

Lots of rumours online that Honda are willing to 'move mountains' to get Alonso on board next season with McLaren.

Frank Bullitt

counterlock wrote: »

Lots of rumours online that Honda are willing to 'move mountains' to get Alonso on board next season with McLaren.

This has been a rumour for quite a while now, and it shows his worth in the paddock right now. But I don't know if he is even motivated by money anymore, he moved back to Spain a few years back so the tax thing that F1 drivers do like living in Monaco or Geneva doesn't really seem to concern him.

Ted Kravitz and one other journalist seem to think there will be no big moves this year. For 2016 though...

Its easy to see why teams want him, he is fast and consistent, clear team leader and is probably the most marketable driver in the field.

Infoanon

Gintonious wrote: »

Ted Kravitz and one other journalist seem to think there will be no big moves this year. For 2016 though...

There are other journalists dropping hints that there might be a 'shock' move.

Mclaren today confirmed that no driver announcement was imminent. Mclaren also have a major sponsorship hole to fill with both Hugo Boss and Johnny Walkers leaving at the end of the year.

What happens if 3 car teams come into play next year, Vijay Mallaya is reported as having said that the magic number is 20 and not 16 for when teams must run a 3rd car. Romain Grosjean is still an outside bet for a Mclaren seat.

This silly season could go on for a few more months yet !