Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

mel123

Surely the buyer only pays from when they sign for the house anyway, so why should the buyer, or the buyers solicitor care?

pyxxel

mel123 wrote: »

Surely the buyer only pays from when they sign for the house anyway, so why should the buyer, or the buyers solicitor care?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's standard practice that all outstanding bills on a property must be paid on sale of same property. No bank will release mortgage money otherwise, because liabilities on a property influence the value of the property.

emeldc

pyxxel wrote: »

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's standard practice that all outstanding bills on a property must be paid on sale of same property. No bank will release mortgage money otherwise, because liabilities on a property influence the value of the property.

But isn't that the question, is the water tax attached to the property or the occupier? I don't think it's set in stone yet.

Bob24

emeldc wrote: »

But isn't that the question, is the water tax attached to the property or the occupier? I don't think it's set in stone yet.

I *think* it works that way:

If someone (owner or tenant) is registered as a customer and failing to pay their bills, the debt is associated to their customer account and not to the property (i.e. it cannot be transferred to a new owner).

If no one is registered as a customer AND there is active water service from Irish Water, the debt is building up towards the property itself and will be transferred to its new owner if it gets sold.

April 73

Has anyone come across this situation? My driveway is cobble-lock and the water valve thingie is slap bang in the middle of my drive. The meter installation company knocked today wanting me to give my permission for them to come onto my driveway, dig up my cobble-lock and install a water meter. I refused to sign anything unless I had a written agreement from them that my driveway would be restored to its previous condition. Even then I don't see any advantage to me giving permission to install a meter.
I also wonder where my liability starts & ends with regards to leaks. Is it after the meter or where the pipes begins to run under my driveway?
In my previous house the meter was installed on the footpath & I was not asked for permission.

L1011

The advantage only exists currently if you use less than the cap. It is very likely that in time the cap will be wound higher and the flat rate will start to become slightly painful for regular users. (If they'd actually done this from the start - meters optional and advantageous - they'd probably have about as many installed without protest...)

Realistically you were always liable for repairing leaks on your own property including from the stopcock, its just that unless it was sufficient to cause structural problems most people never gave a damn.

As I use less than the cap I'd be inviting them in once they repaired the driveway to its original condition.

April 73

On the sale of the house question, why is a water bill different to an electricity bill? Why would it have to be a condition of the sale? I didn't clear my electricity bill before I moved in April. I rang the company & gave them a reading. Technically I still owed them money until they sent the closing bill & it was never an issue raised by the solicitor.
She did ask about Irish Water & I said I had registered but she didn't ask me to prove I had paid anything.

April 73

L1011 wrote: »

The advantage only exists currently if you use less than the cap. It is very likely that in time the cap will be wound higher and the flat rate will start to become slightly painful for regular users. (If they'd actually done this from the start - meters optional and advantageous - they'd probably have about as many installed without protest...)

Realistically you were always liable for repairing leaks on your own property including from the stopcock, its just that unless it was sufficient to cause structural problems most people never gave a damn.

As I use less than the cap I'd be inviting them in once they repaired the driveway to its original condition.

So from my driveway on is my responsibility? And where the meter is doesn't matter?
As I use more (based on usage of my previous house) I think I might wait for the meter til the cap exceeds the usage charge.
That's assuming Irish Water doesn't implode under its own crazy set-up.

L1011

April 73 wrote: »

So from my driveway on is my responsibility? And where the meter is doesn't matter?
As I use more (based on usage of my previous house) I think I might wait for the meter til the cap exceeds the usage charge.

As far as I know, if the meter is halfway up your driveway you're basically reducing the amount you're responsible for. You can't be charged for water that leaks before the meter, for starters.

Bob24

April 73 wrote: »

On the sale of the house question, why is a water bill different to an electricity bill? Why would it have to be a condition of the sale? I didn't clear my electricity bill before I moved in April. I rang the company & gave them a reading. Technically I still owed them money until they sent the closing bill & it was never an issue raised by the solicitor.
She did ask about Irish Water & I said I had registered but she didn't ask me to prove I had paid anything.

If there is a registered customer there is no difference with electricity bills.

The "problem" comes when there is no identified customer:
- if no customer is registered at the address, the electricity company will just stop the service, so no amount will ever be due because no service is provided.
- however Irish Water is not allowed to do the same thing and has to keep providing the service no matter what; meaning an amount is due but it is not clear by who so it gets associated to the property itself. This is where there is a risk to be buying debt to IW with the property, whereas that case is not possible with electricity.

April 73

Bob24 wrote: »

If there is a registered customer there is no difference with electricity bills.

The "problem" comes when there is no identified customer:
- if no customer is registered at the address, the electricity company will just stop the service, so no amount will ever be due because no service is provided.
- however Irish Water is not allowed to do the same thing and has to keep providing the service no matter what; meaning an amount is due but it is not clear by who so it gets associated to the property itself. This is where there is a risk to be buying debt to IW with the property, whereas that case is not possible with electricity.

That makes sense, thanks. So the important thing is that a customer is registered to the address rather than the bill being cleared at point of sale.
I was told my bill from that house would follow me as I had registered.
Mind you, IW have proven to be very inept in transferring bills & allowances & still have not managed to do it correctly after four months, with numerous incorrect bills sent to both my name & to "the occupier". The latest one to "the occupier" saying I can't claim my conservation grant until I register. Two after sending me another incorrect bill to my name.

tomasrojo

My problem (being sent unmetered bills despite having an IW meter) has been resolved, I think. How I registered my address and the way the installers wrote my address didn't match. Or something like that. My house was in the database twice, and one entry didn't have a meter associated with it.

Bendihorse

What's the story if my landlord has sent my name to Irish water and put the bill in my name, I'm moving out and they are demanding evidence that I have paid the bill, are they entitled to do so? Is the contract not between me and Irish Water now, making the landlord a third party?

The_Conductor

Bendihorse wrote: »

What's the story if my landlord has sent my name to Irish water and put the bill in my name, I'm moving out and they are demanding evidence that I have paid the bill, are they entitled to do so? Is the contract not between me and Irish Water now, making the landlord a third party?

Its still not clear- but its possible that if the bill is unpaid, IW may associate it with the property and instead of chasing you- chase the landlord. Its still not sorted.

Pawwed Rig

Bendihorse wrote: »

What's the story if my landlord has sent my name to Irish water and put the bill in my name, I'm moving out and they are demanding evidence that I have paid the bill, are they entitled to do so? Is the contract not between me and Irish Water now, making the landlord a third party?

Landlords normally ensure that all utilities are up to date at the end of a tenancy.

emeldc

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Landlords normally ensure that all utilities are up to date at the end of a tenancy.

I don't. I just ring and make sure the bill is back in my name so as to ensure a smooth transition to the next tenant. In any case ESB/Gas wont discuss the tenants bill with the landlord, paid or otherwise, as it simply has nothing to do with him.

Bendihorse

I would apply the same logic emeldc. The landlord is going to look to stop it from my deposit unless I provide proof, I feel I'm being held to ransom when it's none of his business. How can I get a definitive answer on this or is there one?

Bendihorse

Bendihorse wrote: »

I would apply the same logic emeldc. The landlord is going to look to stop it from my deposit unless I provide proof, I feel I'm being held to ransom when it's none of his business. How can I get a definitive answer on this or is there one?

You could try asking them here http://www.boards.ie/ttforum/1643

emeldc

Bendihorse wrote: »

I would apply the same logic emeldc. The landlord is going to look to stop it from my deposit unless I provide proof, I feel I'm being held to ransom when it's none of his business. How can I get a definitive answer on this or is there one?

No problem. If he stops it from your deposit, just ask him for the receipt to prove that he has paid it, or you'll go to the PRTB. Seriously though, as none of this is set in Stone, I really don't see how IW can hold anyone responsible for the bill in a rented property and at the end of the day they can't disconnect. What a complete mess.

Bob24

emeldc wrote: »

No problem. If he stops it from your deposit, just ask him for the receipt to prove that he has paid it, or you'll go to the PRTB. Seriously though, as none of this is set in Stone, I really don't see how IW can hold anyone responsible for the bill in a rented property and at the end of the day they can't disconnect. What a complete mess.

If the tenant is registered with IW as a customer for that address, things are pretty clear and I don't see why IW couldn't hold them responsible. Same as an electricity or phone company ... you have a customer not paying there bills, you chase that person no matter where they might have moved - nothign to do with the landlord.

Of course, it is different if no one is registered ...

afriendlyshark

Hey,

My boyfriend and I are living in the apartment we're in now for another year, and we got the new lease today and it mentions Irish Water. We've been asked a couple of times by the letting agent if we've registered and to send on the details to our landlord. I'm not 100% sure if it states in the lease that we HAVE to register from the way it's worded. I'm wondering though if they can make us register like that, even if we don't want to?

Thanks!

the beer revolu

afriendlyshark wrote: »

Hey,

My boyfriend and I are living in the apartment we're in now for another year, and we got the new lease today and it mentions Irish Water. We've been asked a couple of times by the letting agent if we've registered and to send on the details to our landlord. I'm not 100% sure if it states in the lease that we HAVE to register from the way it's worded. I'm wondering though if they can make us register like that, even if we don't want to?

Thanks!

You are the consumer. It's your account.
You are registered and have accounts for electricity and maybe gas. Why is this so different?

The Irish Water FAQ section might be a better place to get the information you require but as far as I know, unless you're deliberately going down the protest road, you need to register.

moyners

afriendlyshark wrote: »

Hey,

My boyfriend and I are living in the apartment we're in now for another year, and we got the new lease today and it mentions Irish Water. We've been asked a couple of times by the letting agent if we've registered and to send on the details to our landlord. I'm not 100% sure if it states in the lease that we HAVE to register from the way it's worded. I'm wondering though if they can make us register like that, even if we don't want to?

Thanks!

If it's in the lease then you have to do it. Your only choice would be to refuse to sign the lease - they may back down but I don't think they will because it's become standard practice now to have proof that you've registered with Irish Water. They want to protect themselves and the landlord from any unpaid bills.

pwurple

Yes, the exact same as the other utilities. The landlord gets your usage bill if you leave without paying them (just like electricity, bins, gas etc) so are fairly proactive about covering themselves against losses.

TheDriver

Naturally if you feel strongly enough then don't sign it, don't register. However there are plenty of people out there to rent properties at the moment so my money would be on an unpleasant outcome for you.

Pawwed Rig

With a part 4 tenancy you are not obliged to sign a new lease anyway. Not registering with Irish water is not a ground for termination of a part 4 tenancy

Bob24

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

With a part 4 tenancy you are not obliged to sign a new lease anyway. Not registering with Irish water is not a ground for termination of a part 4 tenancy

All correct, but I will assume that even if the poster is in a part 4 tenancy, the agent wouldn't have sent a new lease just for Irish Water and they are in a position to review the rent.

When he is informed of the decision of the tenants not to register with IW, the landlord can just say "OK that's your decision". The next week he could send them an "unrelated" letter informing them that in the end their rent is actually increasing 50 euros more per month than original announced (since the tenants haven't accepted the condition of the new lease, none of what is in it is biding for the landlord).

Anything illegal with doing this? And isn't it an easy and practical way of forcing them to register? (unless they prefer giving more extra money to their landlord than they would to Irish Water, in which case the landlord will be happy to pick up the bill and they will indirectly be paying anyway)

Sunny Dayz

Just wondering has anyone applied for the water grant yet and how long they are taking to process?

The_Conductor

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

Just wondering has anyone applied for the water grant yet and how long they are taking to process?

I haven't got an application form or anything yet- have they started sending them out?

Sunny Dayz

The_Conductor wrote: »

I haven't got an application form or anything yet- have they started sending them out?

Yeah I got mine about two weeks ago and did it online there over the weekend. Someone in work got their form last Friday.