Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

WilyCoyote

This story reeks of corruption. Yet there seems to be no punishment/retraining for the sergeant that caused the whole debacle. And the blanket "we don't discuss internal matters" puts the lie on Alan Shatter's 'full transparency' promise. After Donegal, you would think that corruption and arrogance would have been rooted out. Let's see if our brave reporters ask either Shatter or the AG to elucidate. But please everyone ....... no breath holding

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sacked-garda-gets-job-back-after-ag-calls-for-end-to-probe-29801511.html

snubbleste

which left the State taxpayer with estimated legal costs of €450,000

:mad:

Holsten

Of course there will be corruption.

It's everywhere, and the Gardai are not immune.

Augmerson

Holsten wrote: »

Of course there will be corruption.

It's everywhere, and the Gardai are not immune.

This.

WilyCoyote

Holsten wrote: »

Of course there will be corruption.

It's everywhere, and the Gardai are not immune.

Does this mean that it could reach the highest ranks?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

The man won a Supreme Court appeal and will begin "re-training" from today.
What is your problem OP?

WilyCoyote

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

The man won a Supreme Court appeal and will begin "re-training" from today.
What is your problem OP?

You seem to have a problem understanding simple sentences.
You should read the full article or get someone to read it for you.
Below is an extract. The garda is being retrained. The sergeant (who tried to wipe the charge) is not AFAIK.

However, a sergeant later wrote to a garda inspector complaining Gda Kelly had not answered certain questions and recommended no prosecution.

renegademaster

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Does this mean that it could reach the highest ranks?

of course it does

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

This story reeks of corruption. Yet there seems to be no punishment/retraining for the sergeant that caused the whole debacle. And the blanket "we don't discuss internal matters" puts the lie on Alan Shatter's 'full transparency' promise. After Donegal, you would think that corruption and arrogance would have been rooted out. Let's see if our brave reporters ask either Shatter or the AG to elucidate. But please everyone ....... no breath holding

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sacked-garda-gets-job-back-after-ag-calls-for-end-to-probe-29801511.html

The Supreme Court has come down on his side, yet the ultimate boards.ie court and judge coyote deem he should be hung drawn and quartered. Typical ****e from people who are very likely to have grievences with AGS over being convicted for road traffic offences or bring told to cop themselves when pissed and a dickhead at 4am in the morning, horse****e!

tin79

He broke up a lock in. Ya cant be doing that in auld Ireland sure.


Hang him.

WilyCoyote

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The Supreme Court has come down on his side, yet the ultimate boards.ie court and judge coyote deem he should be hung drawn and quartered. Typical ****e from people who are very likely to have grievences with AGS over being convicted for road traffic offences or bring told to cop themselves when pissed and a dickhead at 4am in the morning, horse****e!

Why don't you read the article and try and understand it's simple sentences. I'm talking about the sergeant getting off ........ not the garda - who was wronged by his sergeant.
Both the article and the post are easily understandable ......... have you escaped from Bebo?

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Why don't you read the article and try and understand it's simple sentences. I'm talking about the sergeant getting off ........ not the garda - who was wronged by his sergeant.
Both the article and the post are easily understandable ......... have you escaped from Bebo?

Would you ever **** off and get a life!

WilyCoyote

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Would you ever **** off and get a life!

Just read the article. By throwing your toys out of the cot ........ yes, Bebo

Frank Black

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Why don't you read the article and try and understand it's simple sentences. I'm talking about the sergeant getting off ........ not the garda - who was wronged by his sergeant.
Both the article and the post are easily understandable ......... have you escaped from Bebo?

I think you're the one with the comprehension issues.
You've based your whole 'Sergeant getting off' theory around one sentence in a newspaper article.
You've no background knowledge, you've no inside information, you've no evidence of any kind - basically you've no clue whatsoever.

If it was me, I probably wouldn't post up a thread claiming corruption with such a lack of basic info. I'd be worried people would think I'm some kind of [EMAIL="dumb@ss"]dumb@ss[/EMAIL].

WilyCoyote

Frank Black wrote: »

I think you're the one with the comprehension issues.
You've based your whole 'Sergeant getting off' theory around one sentence in a newspaper article.
You've no background knowledge, you've no inside information, you've no evidence of any kind - basically you've no clue whatsoever.

If it was me, I probably wouldn't post up a thread claiming corruption with such a lack of basic info. I'd be worried people would think I'm some kind of [EMAIL="dumb@ss"]dumb@ss[/EMAIL].

You can only make assumptions with the info at hand. What is wrong with that? A sergeant went over the head of one of his underlings and got a publican off a charge. By so doing he also dropped the poor garda in the merde. If that doesn't deserve looking into, then there will be a whiff of corruption in higher places.
As regards having 'no clue whatsoever'? I can only comment on the fact that the AG decided not to go ahead and the garda was reinstated. If you have some info that has not come to light ...... please share.

Frank Black

WilyCoyote wrote: »

You can only make assumptions with the info at hand. .

or not make any.

WilyCoyote wrote: »

What is wrong with that? .

You'll most likly be completely wrong.
Look, I'll show you

WilyCoyote wrote: »

A sergeant went over the head of one of his underlings and got a publican off a charge. .

Assumption based on no evidence.

WilyCoyote wrote: »

By so doing he also dropped the poor garda in the merde. .

Assumption based on no evidence.

.

WilyCoyote wrote: »

As regards having 'no clue whatsoever'? I can only comment on the fact that the AG decided not to go ahead and the garda was reinstated. If you have some info that has not come to light ...... please share.

I'm not the one making assumptions now am I.

For example, based on your posts, I could make all kinds of assumptions about your intellect.
It would be wrong to do so however, as I have no hard evidence on how intelligent, or indeed stupid, you actually are.

humanji

Stop with the childish bickering!

kerry4sam

WilyCoyote wrote: »

This story reeks of corruption. Yet there seems to be no punishment/retraining for the sergeant that caused the whole debacle. And the blanket "we don't discuss internal matters" puts the lie on Alan Shatter's 'full transparency' promise. After Donegal, you would think that corruption and arrogance would have been rooted out. Let's see if our brave reporters ask either Shatter or the AG to elucidate. But please everyone ....... no breath holding

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sacked-garda-gets-job-back-after-ag-calls-for-end-to-probe-29801511.html

WilyCoyote wrote: »

You seem to have a problem understanding simple sentences.
You should read the full article or get someone to read it for you.
Below is an extract. The garda is being retrained. The sergeant (who tried to wipe the charge) is not AFAIK.

However, a sergeant later wrote to a garda inspector complaining Gda Kelly had not answered certain questions and recommended no prosecution.

WilyCoyote, don't be getting yourself worked up over An Garda Síochána. Nothing like you would think from our or any National PoliceForce - nothing! Don't expect morals, honesty, decency, ethics, conscience or morality in serving full-time members and you might just be able to look one in the eye with a straight face imo.

WilyCoyote

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

But having gardai inquiring into garda malpractices is a bit rich. The siege mentality that pervades the force in the face of an inquiry is similar to the position that politicians take when inquiries begin re. a political scandal.
These people are public servants and are paid to uphold the law - not drive a coach&four through it.
One way out of this miasma would be to stop the pension entitlements from the time of the wrongdoing. After all, the employer part of the pension is paid in return for the person doing his/her job right. If that part of the bargain is not upheld by the employee then that part of the contract should be voided. This might jog the memories of serving officers when questions are put to them.

Boombastic

was it in return for free dinners?

Pappa Charlie

kerry4sam wrote: »

WilyCoyote, don't be getting yourself worked up over An Garda Síochána. Nothing like you would think from our or any National PoliceForce - nothing! Don't expect morals, honesty, decency, ethics, conscience or morality in serving full-time members and you might just be able to look one in the eye with a straight face imo.

So says the man who couldn't hack it in the garda reserve! By the way Sam is in Dublin and will be for a long time!

Sunnyisland

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

So says the man who couldn't hack it in the garda reserve! By the way Sam is in Dublin and will be for a long time!

Ouch .

Femme_Fatale

kerry4sam wrote: »

WilyCoyote, don't be getting yourself worked up over An Garda Síochána. Nothing like you would think from our or any National PoliceForce - nothing! Don't expect morals, honesty, decency, ethics, conscience or morality in serving full-time members and you might just be able to look one in the eye with a straight face imo.

Any guard I've dealt with has been sound. What's with the bitter need to pretend they're all crooks based on a few of them?

Hitchens

"the girls they admired him
as all brazzers do,
fell in love with the guard
and his new suit of blue"

- Barney McKenna

joe swanson

Yay. A garda bashing thread so we can all make sweeping generalised comments with nothing to back them up.

That'll learn them for givin me that ticket. Grrrrrrrr

WilyCoyote

Just for the record. Have had a half a dozen speed tickets in the old days and paid my 50 quid without a bother. A couple of points a couple of times up to coming out here and I'm a great believer in taking the punishment if you break the law. My brother was in the force before retiring and I had two uncles. My best friend in Dublin retired last year after spending all his life in the force. So I don't have a bee on my bonnet about them. But I don't like 1) corruption, 2) dropping someone in the merde and 3) cover ups.
Now, how does that make me anti-Gardai?
It seems that any critical analysis of certain professions gets stifled on boards. Tantamount to criticising the clergy twenty or thirty years ago. And we all know what happened there! The manufactured indignation is something else. If everyone thought that the force was immune from corruption, those major cases over the past 20 years would never have been brought to light. And those wrongfully accused would carry the stigma to the grave.
And I guess all the pulling of summonses for speeding over the past few years is OK as well.

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Just for the record. Have had a half a dozen speed tickets in the old days and paid my 50 quid without a bother. A couple of points a couple of times up to coming out here and I'm a great believer in taking the punishment if you break the law. My brother was in the force before retiring and I had two uncles. My best friend in Dublin retired last year after spending all his life in the force. So I don't have a bee on my bonnet about them. But I don't like 1) corruption, 2) dropping someone in the merde and 3) cover ups.
Now, how does that make me anti-Gardai?
It seems that any critical analysis of certain professions gets stifled on boards. Tantamount to criticising the clergy twenty or thirty years ago. And we all know what happened there! The manufactured indignation is something else. If everyone thought that the force was immune from corruption, those major cases over the past 20 years would never have been brought to light. And those wrongfully accused would carry the stigma to the grave.
And I guess all the pulling of summonses for speeding over the past few years is OK as well.

I see! Your brother got in and you didn't!

Femme_Fatale

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Just for the record. Have had a half a dozen speed tickets in the old days and paid my 50 quid without a bother. A couple of points a couple of times up to coming out here and I'm a great believer in taking the punishment if you break the law. My brother was in the force before retiring and I had two uncles. My best friend in Dublin retired last year after spending all his life in the force. So I don't have a bee on my bonnet about them. But I don't like 1) corruption, 2) dropping someone in the merde and 3) cover ups.
Now, how does that make me anti-Gardai?
It seems that any critical analysis of certain professions gets stifled on boards. Tantamount to criticising the clergy twenty or thirty years ago. And we all know what happened there! The manufactured indignation is something else. If everyone thought that the force was immune from corruption, those major cases over the past 20 years would never have been brought to light. And those wrongfully accused would carry the stigma to the grave.
And I guess all the pulling of summonses for speeding over the past few years is OK as well.

Huh? Challenging when the entire force is tarred with the corruption brush is not stifling anything - it's just calling out bullsh1t.
If people could talk about corruption in the gardaí (which does happen) without blaming all of them there'd be far less conflict on these threads.

WilyCoyote

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Huh? Challenging when the entire force is tarred with the corruption brush is not stifling anything - it's just calling out bullsh1t.
If people could talk about corruption in the gardaí (which does happen) without blaming all of them there'd be far less conflict on these threads.

Who's blaming the entire force?

Femme_Fatale

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Who's blaming the entire force?

A post on this thread:

Don't expect morals, honesty, decency, ethics, conscience or morality in serving full-time members

J K

WilyCoyote wrote: »

But I don't like ......... cover ups.

Where's the cover up - the Garda authorities did their best to sack him. They investigated him, convicted him and punished him with dismissal.

The Supreme Court overturned their decision.

Is the Supreme Court in on your conspiracy?

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Who's blaming the entire force?

If your going to start a thread with an agenda then at a least stick to your guns and stop back tracking!

WilyCoyote

Incidentally, that was not my post. But if a garda sees something amiss he/she should stand up and be counted. Otherwise they are being complicit. However, whistleblowers as far back as Serpico usually get the bum's rush and are hounded out of the force. If this statement is wrong, let me know.

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Incidentally, that was not my post. But if a garda sees something amiss he/she should stand up and be counted. Otherwise they are being complicit. However, whistleblowers as far back as Serpico usually get the bum's rush and are hounded out of the force. If this statement is wrong, let me know.

Consider it done!

WilyCoyote

J K wrote: »

Where's the cover up - the Garda authorities did their best to sack him. They investigated him, convicted him and punished him with dismissal.

The Supreme Court overturned their decision.

Is the Supreme Court in on your conspiracy?

Are you really serious? The guy was fitted up. His sergeant shafted him but he in turn was shot down by a higher entity.

What crime did the poor guy commit anyway? As far as I can see, most of the posters thought that he was rightly sacked. Do you?

TheNog

kerry4sam wrote: »

WilyCoyote, don't be getting yourself worked up over An Garda Síochána. Nothing like you would think from our or any National PoliceForce - nothing! Don't expect morals, honesty, decency, ethics, conscience or morality in serving full-time members and you might just be able to look one in the eye with a straight face imo.

Kerry

Why all these one post wonder hits showing a very major chip on your shoulder for everyone to see in these type of topics. You never ( that I have seen ) made any attempt to discuss what your particular problem is. Gone are the days of you posting frequently on the ES forum when you wanted to be a Garda. Don't know what experience you seem to have had but to brush the entire force as the same is lacking in understanding and appreciation of the many good people in the job.

TheNog

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Are you really serious? The guy was fitted up. His sergeant shafted him but he in turn was shot down by a higher entity.

What crime did the poor guy commit anyway? As far as I can see, most of the posters thought that he was rightly sacked. Do you?

I never thought he was rightly sacked. It appears to me like some sort of personal vendetta or conflict between the Garda and Sergeant.

Cover up or corruption I really don't see it at. A total mess is what I see. What will happen now is either an internal or independent review of what happened and hopefully some recommendations in the hope it doesn't happen again.

WilyCoyote

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Incidentally, that was not my post. But if a garda sees something amiss he/she should stand up and be counted. Otherwise they are being complicit. However, whistleblowers as far back as Serpico usually get the bum's rush and are hounded out of the force. If this statement is wrong, let me know.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Consider it done!

Is this a stock phrase when you're playing for time? After banging the same old drum ad nauseum you seem to have run out of puff.
C'mon, there must be figures pinned to the wall in the tea room?

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Is this a stock phrase when you're playing for time? After banging the same old drum ad nauseum you seem to have run out of puff.
C'mon, there must be figures pinned to the wall in the tea room?

What in the name of Jesus are you on about? If your post was an attempt at sounding intelligent, well you failed!

Hootanany

I think it was WHO WAS IN THE PUB that night ^ that tried to fit him up? alledgely:cool:

WilyCoyote

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

What in the name of Jesus are you on about? If your post was an attempt at sounding intelligent, well you failed!

You keep calling into question the intelligence of others. Why is this?
I asked you if my statement was wrong and if so to let me know. If you can't do that, you should acknowledge it and retreat gracefully.
So, in your estimation, the gardai once again came up smelling of roses? And the guy that was exonerated is the criminal?

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

You keep calling into question the intelligence of others. Why is this?
I asked you if my statement was wrong and if so to let me know. If you can't do that, you should acknowledge it and retreat gracefully.
So, in your estimation, the gardai once again came up smelling of roses? And the guy that was exonerated is the criminal?

This can happen in any job and does, both private sector and public sector. No one is coming out smelling of roses, some times things snowball and bad decisions are made. It's called life! Members of the gardai are recruited from the general public and not born to the Virgin Mary in templemore!

Plazaman

Hootanany wrote: »

I think it was WHO WAS IN THE PUB that night ^ that tried to fit him up? alledgely:cool:

I'd read the article differently. Guard does pub. 2 weeks later comes back to pub to raid it again.

During that investigation, some people who admitted being in Monica's denied Gda Kelly entered the premises while the taxi driver said he had seen Gda Kelly enter the front door.

An examination of his notebook showed information concerning that night was written with two different pens.

Suspicious Guard is suspicious, are they claiming he falsified the report of the 2nd raid? I think that's why he won appeal as they didn't really tell him why he was dismissed.

WilyCoyote

The Supreme Court ruled a Garda Board of Inquiry failed to give reasons for recommending Gda Kelly's dismissal and directed the board to give him those reasons before his fresh appeal.

Neither the Board of Inquiry nor a Garda Appeals Board had explained their respective decisions in favour of dismissal "in even the most rudimentary way", Mr Justice O'Donnell said, in a judgment with which Chief Justice Susan Denham and Mr Justice Frank Clarke agreed.

QUESTIONS

The judge said the "remarkable" fact was Gda Kelly was dismissed after the Appeals Board applied some unknown test to facts which remain unclear.

Not only did Gda Kelly not know what view the Board of Inquiry took of the facts, he did not know what the Appeals Board thought the inquiry had decided concerning the facts.
IRISH INDEPENDENT

Apparently, opaqueness is the new transparency or else the Garda Appeals Board are an incompetent shower

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

The Supreme Court ruled a Garda Board of Inquiry failed to give reasons for recommending Gda Kelly's dismissal and directed the board to give him those reasons before his fresh appeal.

Neither the Board of Inquiry nor a Garda Appeals Board had explained their respective decisions in favour of dismissal "in even the most rudimentary way", Mr Justice O'Donnell said, in a judgment with which Chief Justice Susan Denham and Mr Justice Frank Clarke agreed.

QUESTIONS

The judge said the "remarkable" fact was Gda Kelly was dismissed after the Appeals Board applied some unknown test to facts which remain unclear.

Not only did Gda Kelly not know what view the Board of Inquiry took of the facts, he did not know what the Appeals Board thought the inquiry had decided concerning the facts.
IRISH INDEPENDENT

Apparently, opaqueness is the new transparency or else the Garda Appeals Board are an incompetent shower

You need not worry about it unless you are thinking of joining the gardai, the normal arguement here is that they don't investigate their own and take sanctions, clearly they do and they don't spare it when they think they are right! What was your point again?

delthedriver

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I see! Your brother got in and you didn't!

Harsh & irrelevant ?

The Garda Siochana are no different to any other organisation.

Corruption exists in every profession, business and politics.

It does not mean that every member of the Garda force, professions and politicians are corrupt.

Things like this need to be kept in perspective.

TheNog

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Apparently, opaqueness is the new transparency or else the Garda Appeals Board are an incompetent shower

But this happens from time to time in the Private Sector too and ends up in the Employment Trubunal but those companies involved are not called corrupt. Why are you insisting on using buzzwords to make your selective point?

The **** happened and has been corrected just like many of other cases in the private sector. Recommendations will be made to make it more transparent/accountable so let's move on

WilyCoyote

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

You need not worry about it unless you are thinking of joining the gardai, the normal arguement here is that they don't investigate their own and take sanctions, clearly they do and they don't spare it when they think they are right! What was your point again?

But unless we are allowed to criticise any malfunctions in that department ....... they themselves would take no action. It was obvious from the earliest in this case that something was amiss. It was obvious that the initial outcome was faulty. I'd use the word corrupt but you seem to be sensitive to that idiom. 'Intentionally faulty' may meet the general criteria.
The powers that be were hoping that the shafted garda would creep away - a broken spirit. But he decided to fight back. And fair play to him. And once again wrongdoings were uncovered.

Not quite sure if gardai still take the oath ......... about discharging their duties to the best of their abilities......... the cute hoordom that exists would warrant investigating

Why did the gardai obfuscate when asked to deliver certain statements?
Was this doing their job to the best of their ability?

As for my wanting to join the gardai? It had never crossed my mind

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

But unless we are allowed to criticise any malfunctions in that department ....... they themselves would take no action. It was obvious from the earliest in this case that something was amiss. It was obvious that the initial outcome was faulty. I'd use the word corrupt but you seem to be sensitive to that idiom. 'Intentionally faulty' may meet the general criteria.
The powers that be were hoping that the shafted garda would creep away - a broken spirit. But he decided to fight back. And fair play to him. And once again wrongdoings were uncovered.

Not quite sure if gardai still take the oath ......... about discharging their duties to the best of their abilities......... the cute hoordom that exists would warrant investigating

Why did the gardai obfuscate when asked to deliver certain statements?
Was this doing their job to the best of their ability?

As for my wanting to join the gardai? It had never crossed my mind

Thank god!

WilyCoyote

TheNog wrote: »

But this happens from time to time in the Private Sector too and ends up in the Employment Trubunal but those companies involved are not called corrupt. Why are you insisting on using buzzwords to make your selective point?

The **** happened and has been corrected just like many of other cases in the private sector. Recommendations will be made to make it more transparent/accountable so let's move on

But if recommendations were made and adhered to, why do these cases still surface. The legal side of this case was not rocket science.
The 'let's move on' bit is a soundbite from PR. A bit like that political gurrier from North Dublin wanting to draw a line in the sand some years back before he was finally nailed ......... for corruption.

The word 'corrupt' is generally used for government bodies or people that deal with government bodies. That's why I use it.

Pappa Charlie

WilyCoyote wrote: »

But if recommendations were made and adhered to, why do these cases still surface. The legal side of this case was not rocket science.
The 'let's move on' bit is a soundbite from PR. A bit like that political gurrier from North Dublin wanting to draw a line in the sand some years back before he was finally nailed ......... for corruption.

The word 'corrupt' is generally used for government bodies or people that deal with government bodies. That's why I use it.

There isn't a police force in the word that dosent have issues or problems, when you have 13000 staff you will alway have a few head the balls, are the gardai more corrupt that other forces, no and not by a long shot, tell me where the perfect police force is, stop trying to be the victim!