Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

Pappa Charlie · 03-12-2013 01:25AM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Who's blaming the entire force?

If your going to start a thread with an agenda then at a least stick to your guns and stop back tracking!

WilyCoyote · 03-12-2013 01:29AM

Incidentally, that was not my post. But if a garda sees something amiss he/she should stand up and be counted. Otherwise they are being complicit. However, whistleblowers as far back as Serpico usually get the bum's rush and are hounded out of the force. If this statement is wrong, let me know.

Pappa Charlie · 03-12-2013 02:00AM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Incidentally, that was not my post. But if a garda sees something amiss he/she should stand up and be counted. Otherwise they are being complicit. However, whistleblowers as far back as Serpico usually get the bum's rush and are hounded out of the force. If this statement is wrong, let me know.

Consider it done!

WilyCoyote · 03-12-2013 02:26AM

J K wrote: »

Where's the cover up - the Garda authorities did their best to sack him. They investigated him, convicted him and punished him with dismissal.

The Supreme Court overturned their decision.

Is the Supreme Court in on your conspiracy?

Are you really serious? The guy was fitted up. His sergeant shafted him but he in turn was shot down by a higher entity.

What crime did the poor guy commit anyway? As far as I can see, most of the posters thought that he was rightly sacked. Do you?

TheNog · 03-12-2013 09:49AM

kerry4sam wrote: »

WilyCoyote, don't be getting yourself worked up over An Garda Síochána. Nothing like you would think from our or any National PoliceForce - nothing! Don't expect morals, honesty, decency, ethics, conscience or morality in serving full-time members and you might just be able to look one in the eye with a straight face imo.

Kerry

Why all these one post wonder hits showing a very major chip on your shoulder for everyone to see in these type of topics. You never ( that I have seen ) made any attempt to discuss what your particular problem is. Gone are the days of you posting frequently on the ES forum when you wanted to be a Garda. Don't know what experience you seem to have had but to brush the entire force as the same is lacking in understanding and appreciation of the many good people in the job.

TheNog · 03-12-2013 09:53AM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Are you really serious? The guy was fitted up. His sergeant shafted him but he in turn was shot down by a higher entity.

What crime did the poor guy commit anyway? As far as I can see, most of the posters thought that he was rightly sacked. Do you?

I never thought he was rightly sacked. It appears to me like some sort of personal vendetta or conflict between the Garda and Sergeant.

Cover up or corruption I really don't see it at. A total mess is what I see. What will happen now is either an internal or independent review of what happened and hopefully some recommendations in the hope it doesn't happen again.

WilyCoyote · 03-12-2013 01:09PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Incidentally, that was not my post. But if a garda sees something amiss he/she should stand up and be counted. Otherwise they are being complicit. However, whistleblowers as far back as Serpico usually get the bum's rush and are hounded out of the force. If this statement is wrong, let me know.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Consider it done!

Is this a stock phrase when you're playing for time? After banging the same old drum ad nauseum you seem to have run out of puff.
C'mon, there must be figures pinned to the wall in the tea room?

Pappa Charlie · 03-12-2013 01:16PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Is this a stock phrase when you're playing for time? After banging the same old drum ad nauseum you seem to have run out of puff.
C'mon, there must be figures pinned to the wall in the tea room?

What in the name of Jesus are you on about? If your post was an attempt at sounding intelligent, well you failed!

Hootanany · 03-12-2013 02:12PM

I think it was WHO WAS IN THE PUB that night ^ that tried to fit him up? alledgely:cool:

WilyCoyote · 03-12-2013 02:51PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

What in the name of Jesus are you on about? If your post was an attempt at sounding intelligent, well you failed!

You keep calling into question the intelligence of others. Why is this?
I asked you if my statement was wrong and if so to let me know. If you can't do that, you should acknowledge it and retreat gracefully.
So, in your estimation, the gardai once again came up smelling of roses? And the guy that was exonerated is the criminal?

Pappa Charlie · 03-12-2013 03:26PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

You keep calling into question the intelligence of others. Why is this?
I asked you if my statement was wrong and if so to let me know. If you can't do that, you should acknowledge it and retreat gracefully.
So, in your estimation, the gardai once again came up smelling of roses? And the guy that was exonerated is the criminal?

This can happen in any job and does, both private sector and public sector. No one is coming out smelling of roses, some times things snowball and bad decisions are made. It's called life! Members of the gardai are recruited from the general public and not born to the Virgin Mary in templemore!

Plazaman · 03-12-2013 04:08PM

Hootanany wrote: »

I think it was WHO WAS IN THE PUB that night ^ that tried to fit him up? alledgely:cool:

I'd read the article differently. Guard does pub. 2 weeks later comes back to pub to raid it again.

During that investigation, some people who admitted being in Monica's denied Gda Kelly entered the premises while the taxi driver said he had seen Gda Kelly enter the front door.

An examination of his notebook showed information concerning that night was written with two different pens.

Suspicious Guard is suspicious, are they claiming he falsified the report of the 2nd raid? I think that's why he won appeal as they didn't really tell him why he was dismissed.

WilyCoyote · 03-12-2013 04:50PM

The Supreme Court ruled a Garda Board of Inquiry failed to give reasons for recommending Gda Kelly's dismissal and directed the board to give him those reasons before his fresh appeal.

Neither the Board of Inquiry nor a Garda Appeals Board had explained their respective decisions in favour of dismissal "in even the most rudimentary way", Mr Justice O'Donnell said, in a judgment with which Chief Justice Susan Denham and Mr Justice Frank Clarke agreed.

QUESTIONS

The judge said the "remarkable" fact was Gda Kelly was dismissed after the Appeals Board applied some unknown test to facts which remain unclear.

Not only did Gda Kelly not know what view the Board of Inquiry took of the facts, he did not know what the Appeals Board thought the inquiry had decided concerning the facts.
IRISH INDEPENDENT

Apparently, opaqueness is the new transparency or else the Garda Appeals Board are an incompetent shower

Pappa Charlie · 03-12-2013 05:35PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

The Supreme Court ruled a Garda Board of Inquiry failed to give reasons for recommending Gda Kelly's dismissal and directed the board to give him those reasons before his fresh appeal.

Neither the Board of Inquiry nor a Garda Appeals Board had explained their respective decisions in favour of dismissal "in even the most rudimentary way", Mr Justice O'Donnell said, in a judgment with which Chief Justice Susan Denham and Mr Justice Frank Clarke agreed.

QUESTIONS

The judge said the "remarkable" fact was Gda Kelly was dismissed after the Appeals Board applied some unknown test to facts which remain unclear.

Not only did Gda Kelly not know what view the Board of Inquiry took of the facts, he did not know what the Appeals Board thought the inquiry had decided concerning the facts.
IRISH INDEPENDENT

Apparently, opaqueness is the new transparency or else the Garda Appeals Board are an incompetent shower

You need not worry about it unless you are thinking of joining the gardai, the normal arguement here is that they don't investigate their own and take sanctions, clearly they do and they don't spare it when they think they are right! What was your point again?

delthedriver · 03-12-2013 05:54PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I see! Your brother got in and you didn't!

Harsh & irrelevant ?

The Garda Siochana are no different to any other organisation.

Corruption exists in every profession, business and politics.

It does not mean that every member of the Garda force, professions and politicians are corrupt.

Things like this need to be kept in perspective.

TheNog · 03-12-2013 06:14PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Apparently, opaqueness is the new transparency or else the Garda Appeals Board are an incompetent shower

But this happens from time to time in the Private Sector too and ends up in the Employment Trubunal but those companies involved are not called corrupt. Why are you insisting on using buzzwords to make your selective point?

The **** happened and has been corrected just like many of other cases in the private sector. Recommendations will be made to make it more transparent/accountable so let's move on

WilyCoyote · 03-12-2013 07:40PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

You need not worry about it unless you are thinking of joining the gardai, the normal arguement here is that they don't investigate their own and take sanctions, clearly they do and they don't spare it when they think they are right! What was your point again?

But unless we are allowed to criticise any malfunctions in that department ....... they themselves would take no action. It was obvious from the earliest in this case that something was amiss. It was obvious that the initial outcome was faulty. I'd use the word corrupt but you seem to be sensitive to that idiom. 'Intentionally faulty' may meet the general criteria.
The powers that be were hoping that the shafted garda would creep away - a broken spirit. But he decided to fight back. And fair play to him. And once again wrongdoings were uncovered.

Not quite sure if gardai still take the oath ......... about discharging their duties to the best of their abilities......... the cute hoordom that exists would warrant investigating

Why did the gardai obfuscate when asked to deliver certain statements?
Was this doing their job to the best of their ability?

As for my wanting to join the gardai? It had never crossed my mind

Pappa Charlie · 03-12-2013 07:47PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

But unless we are allowed to criticise any malfunctions in that department ....... they themselves would take no action. It was obvious from the earliest in this case that something was amiss. It was obvious that the initial outcome was faulty. I'd use the word corrupt but you seem to be sensitive to that idiom. 'Intentionally faulty' may meet the general criteria.
The powers that be were hoping that the shafted garda would creep away - a broken spirit. But he decided to fight back. And fair play to him. And once again wrongdoings were uncovered.

Not quite sure if gardai still take the oath ......... about discharging their duties to the best of their abilities......... the cute hoordom that exists would warrant investigating

Why did the gardai obfuscate when asked to deliver certain statements?
Was this doing their job to the best of their ability?

As for my wanting to join the gardai? It had never crossed my mind

Thank god!

WilyCoyote · 03-12-2013 07:49PM

TheNog wrote: »

But this happens from time to time in the Private Sector too and ends up in the Employment Trubunal but those companies involved are not called corrupt. Why are you insisting on using buzzwords to make your selective point?

The **** happened and has been corrected just like many of other cases in the private sector. Recommendations will be made to make it more transparent/accountable so let's move on

But if recommendations were made and adhered to, why do these cases still surface. The legal side of this case was not rocket science.
The 'let's move on' bit is a soundbite from PR. A bit like that political gurrier from North Dublin wanting to draw a line in the sand some years back before he was finally nailed ......... for corruption.

The word 'corrupt' is generally used for government bodies or people that deal with government bodies. That's why I use it.

Pappa Charlie · 03-12-2013 08:17PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

But if recommendations were made and adhered to, why do these cases still surface. The legal side of this case was not rocket science.
The 'let's move on' bit is a soundbite from PR. A bit like that political gurrier from North Dublin wanting to draw a line in the sand some years back before he was finally nailed ......... for corruption.

The word 'corrupt' is generally used for government bodies or people that deal with government bodies. That's why I use it.

There isn't a police force in the word that dosent have issues or problems, when you have 13000 staff you will alway have a few head the balls, are the gardai more corrupt that other forces, no and not by a long shot, tell me where the perfect police force is, stop trying to be the victim!

TheNog · 04-12-2013 11:27AM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

But if recommendations were made and adhered to, why do these cases still surface. The legal side of this case was not rocket

The word 'corrupt' is generally used for government bodies or people that deal with government bodies. That's why I use it.

These cases may and do surface ( although rarely ) because people have the right to appeal a decision made by their employers. If we didn't have the right to appeal that would a very unfair situation. We are know some cases may be legitimate for appeal and some aren't.

The law surrounding these type of inquiries probably isn't rocket science but I don't think it's the understanding or misunderstanding of the law that came about here. I think it is down to procedures laid down by each company to deal with complaints and eventually end up on appeal. In this case there was no clear procedure to test the evidence or the outcome to ensure it was the correct outcome. The judge clearly stated that.

Why use the word corrupt for people who deal with government bodies? I'm sure you have dealt with a government body at some stage in your life. Are you corrupt?

It seems to me you are generalising way too much.

Hootanany · 04-12-2013 11:40AM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

There isn't a police force in the word that dosent have issues or problems, when you have 13000 staff you will alway have a few head the balls, are the gardai more corrupt that other forces, no and not by a long shot, tell me where the perfect police force is, stop trying to be the victim!

Austria Germany for a start

Scouser · 04-12-2013 11:43AM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

This can happen in any job and does, both private sector and public sector. No one is coming out smelling of roses, some times things snowball and bad decisions are made. It's called life! Members of the gardai are recruited from the general public and not born to the Virgin Mary in templemore!

my vote for post of the day!

Pappa Charlie · 04-12-2013 11:52AM

Hootanany wrote: »

Austria Germany for a start

They are perfect?

Scouser · 04-12-2013 11:56AM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

They are perfect?

BERLIN (AP) — A German police officer has been arrested on suspicion of killing and chopping up a man he met on the Internet who had long fantasized about being killed and eaten, authorities said Friday.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/29/german-police-officer-arrested-killing_n_4359675.html?utm_hp_ref=world&ir=World

WilyCoyote · 04-12-2013 01:52PM

Didn't realise that so many boardsies lived in Letsby Avenue

Hootanany · 04-12-2013 01:55PM

Haven't heard that in a while:D

tree_tall · 04-12-2013 02:09PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

There isn't a police force in the word that dosent have issues or problems, when you have 13000 staff you will alway have a few head the balls, are the gardai more corrupt that other forces, no and not by a long shot, tell me where the perfect police force is, stop trying to be the victim!

its more than a case of a few bad apples , their is systematic corruption within AGS

the ombudsman regular issues statements in which they despair at the lack of co-operation from AGS when it comes to investigating complaints etc
the nature of AGS is that it closes ranks when scandals arise , eulogising the guards is not only naïve , its foolish , any org with that much power must never be trusted too much

some guy ( who,s name I cant remember now ) recently wrote an essay in which he expressed amazement at how high trust is amongst the public towards AGS

Pappa Charlie · 04-12-2013 02:38PM

tree_tall wrote: »

its more than a case of a few bad apples , their is systematic corruption within AGS

the ombudsman regular issues statements in which they despair at the lack of co-operation from AGS when it comes to investigating complaints etc
the nature of AGS is that it closes ranks when scandals arise , eulogising the guards is not only naïve , its foolish , any org with that much power must never be trusted too much

some guy ( who,s name I cant remember now ) recently wrote an essay in which he expressed amazement at how high trust is amongst the public towards AGS

They have all the powers they need and no lack of resources, in fact they push many of the complaints back to gardai to investigate because the are not juicy enough. Trust and respect are earned not given, try living in other countries and you would soon appreciate the police force you have here!

delthedriver · 05-12-2013 11:53AM

Yes , Ireland has become a nation of cynics. To be fair it is hard to blame people for becoming cynical.

First of all there were the revelations about the Church, Magdalen Laundries, Politicians, Bankers, Lawyers,Gardai, Charities................and the list goes on and on.....!

People over the last years have endured financial meltdown , unemployment,emigration, hardship following measures taken to correct the Countrys' economic woes.

Positivity is probably at an all time low, even for those who are in employment, the daily grind is becoming even more stressful.

Give this backdrop , yes people in Ireland have become extremely cynical.:)

Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

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