The Boggers Log

ecoli

career move wrote: »

I just had a quick look back through your training and there seems to be a lot of focus on the shorter speed work. You don't seem to have done many 20m+ long runs either or a lot of MP stuff considering Amsterdam is 5 weeks on Sunday. This is not a criticism I'm just curious as to what the thinking is behind that. I presume its because you've done a few marathons and you're focussing on speed because that's what you think your weakness is but would you not need to keep more in touch with the endurance side of things too and particularly the marathon pace work?

Interesting observation but despite the lack of +20 milers I would say the focus has been on strength to be honest.

This was only the third "speed session" since before his holiday's in mid July. There has been less emphasis put on the long run taking up a good chunk of the mileage throughout the week by using higher intensity longer runs as an endurance stimulus through the use of steady state running. Here is where alot of the focus has been with sessions like steady and progression running. The Longford HM also provided an endurance stimulus no Long run could have replicated

By taking a bit of emphasis off the long run as being focal it has enabled us to work on a more cumulative effect by having heavier volume during the week and going into the long runs with heavy legs (to a point)

In terms of marathon pace stuff the aim has been to do this mid week as stand alone sessions for the most part rather than tagged onto long runs for the most part so sessions like the 3x3 miles @ MP or the 20 w/6 @ MP have been incorporated so far with more specific to come. Also alteration sessions have been added to fluctuate around marathon pace (below and above) for the mental benefit of being able to change gears even while tired.

In terms of some of the HMP session, these may have looked to be speed sessions but to be honest this was just because of the type of runner TbL is in that many of his sessions were of a progressive nature as he tends to take time to "ease" into them, we allow him to take this approach as a) provides confidence in his strength b) given his background in multi marathoning provides a new stimulus to help boost his aerobic capacity.

Despite not running as many traditional +20 milers he is actually stronger than ever because we have been able to keep the overall weekly mileage consistently high and provide adequate recovery without compromising overall all quality of training

ThebitterLemon

ecoli wrote: »

Interesting observation but despite the lack of +20 milers I would say the focus has been on strength to be honest.

This was only the third "speed session" since before his holiday's in mid July. There has been less emphasis put on the long run taking up a good chunk of the mileage throughout the week by using higher intensity longer runs as an endurance stimulus through the use of steady state running. Here is where alot of the focus has been with sessions like steady and progression running. The Longford HM also provided an endurance stimulus no Long run could have replicated

By taking a bit of emphasis off the long run as being focal it has enabled us to work on a more cumulative effect by having heavier volume during the week and going into the long runs with heavy legs (to a point)

In terms of marathon pace stuff the aim has been to do this mid week as stand alone sessions for the most part rather than tagged onto long runs for the most part so sessions like the 3x3 miles @ MP or the 20 w/6 @ MP have been incorporated so far with more specific to come. Also alteration sessions have been added to fluctuate around marathon pace (below and above) for the mental benefit of being able to change gears even while tired.

In terms of some of the HMP session, these may have looked to be speed sessions but to be honest this was just because of the type of runner TbL is in that many of his sessions were of a progressive nature as he tends to take time to "ease" into them, we allow him to take this approach as a) provides confidence in his strength b) given his background in multi marathoning provides a new stimulus to help boost his aerobic capacity.

Despite not running as many traditional +20 milers he is actually stronger than ever because we have been able to keep the overall weekly mileage consistently high and provide adequate recovery without compromising overall all quality of training

Exactly what I said

TbL

ThebitterLemon

And in addition, I've never enjoyed a training cycle as much. 47th consecutive day running and have had way more good days than bad plus it's been injury free.

TbL

career move

Cleanman wrote: »

I just prefer to get there and get the job done feeling exhausted but refreshed...the longer stuff would leave me jaded and unable for anything the next day....and where's the fun in that?!?

Between 18 this and 22 that and MP +/- the other, sounds like this new coach of TBL's really has him talking the jargon at least....I'm sure there's substance behind it too;) If nothing else, a shiny new 5k pb should be on the way:p

Well I guess some people just ain't made for the long stuff! And if that's the type of person you are then ya just go with whatever distance you can keep it up for

career move

Thanks ecoli. Like I said I was just interested.

Popeye you better order some spinach - sounds like you have a few nice sessions to look forward to

Cleanman

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

And in addition, I've never enjoyed a training cycle as much. 47th consecutive day running and have had way more good days than bad plus it's been injury free.

TbL

Two very important points - keep up the good work TBL. Remind me next time I'm down whest not to challenge you in a 5k....as for that endurance stuff...pffffft

AuldManKing

ecoli wrote: »

By taking a bit of emphasis off the long run as being focal it has enabled us to work on a more cumulative effect by having heavier volume during the week and going into the long runs with heavy legs (to a point)


Despite not running as many traditional +20 milers he is actually stronger than ever because we have been able to keep the overall weekly mileage consistently high and provide adequate recovery without compromising overall all quality of training

Great post Ecoli.
I'm interested in the 'cumulative effect' aspect - is this something that you just 'judge' based on each individual or is it based on a particular coaching style (Daniels doesn't have many 20 milers / Hanson etc)??

Do you see this being an approach that would work for everyone or specifically people who are coming from a high aerobic base to begin with?

Bulmers74

career move wrote: »

Well I guess some people just ain't made for the long stuff! And if that's the type of person you are then ya just go with whatever distance you can keep it up for

With the proper 'stimulus & coaching' I reckon I could progress from marathon to ultra

dukeraoul

career move wrote: »

I just had a quick look back through your training and there seems to be a lot of focus on the shorter speed work. You don't seem to have done many 20m+ long runs either or a lot of MP stuff considering Amsterdam is 5 weeks on Sunday. This is not a criticism I'm just curious as to what the thinking is behind that. I presume its because you've done a few marathons and you're focussing on speed because that's what you think your weakness is but would you not need to keep more in touch with the endurance side of things too and particularly the marathon pace work?

In fairness when you've run 300 plus marathons, how many 20 mile runs do you need to do...

Btw- CM didn't you do some ridiculous 6 day adventure race on a HM programme ? Glass houses and all that

dukeraoul

ecoli wrote: »

Interesting observation but despite the lack of +20 milers I would say the focus has been on strength to be honest.

This was only the third "speed session" since before his holiday's in mid July. There has been less emphasis put on the long run taking up a good chunk of the mileage throughout the week by using higher intensity longer runs as an endurance stimulus through the use of steady state running. Here is where alot of the focus has been with sessions like steady and progression running. The Longford HM also provided an endurance stimulus no Long run could have replicated

By taking a bit of emphasis off the long run as being focal it has enabled us to work on a more cumulative effect by having heavier volume during the week and going into the long runs with heavy legs (to a point)

In terms of marathon pace stuff the aim has been to do this mid week as stand alone sessions for the most part rather than tagged onto long runs for the most part so sessions like the 3x3 miles @ MP or the 20 w/6 @ MP have been incorporated so far with more specific to come. Also alteration sessions have been added to fluctuate around marathon pace (below and above) for the mental benefit of being able to change gears even while tired.

In terms of some of the HMP session, these may have looked to be speed sessions but to be honest this was just because of the type of runner TbL is in that many of his sessions were of a progressive nature as he tends to take time to "ease" into them, we allow him to take this approach as a) provides confidence in his strength b) given his background in multi marathoning provides a new stimulus to help boost his aerobic capacity.

Despite not running as many traditional +20 milers he is actually stronger than ever because we have been able to keep the overall weekly mileage consistently high and provide adequate recovery without compromising overall all quality of training

Any "crest load" sessions in there Coach?

career move

dukeraoul wrote: »

In fairness when you've run 300 plus marathons, how many 20 mile runs do you need to do...

Btw- CM didn't you do some ridiculous 6 day adventure race on a HM programme ? Glass houses and all that

Now now Quirky take your anger back over to the rant thread

AuldManKing

career move wrote: »

Now now Quirky take your anger back over to the rant thread

Luis is on a roll today.

ecoli

dukeraoul wrote: »

Any "crest load" sessions in there Coach?

Nah though we do have a more advanced "Crest Summit" session designed for Oct 19th. Basically it involves stacking a mountain of beers and junk food in front of him post marathon with the aim of the session to be work through it to the point he can see over the summit*

Patent Pending session so Canova/Daniels can feck right off stealing my training methods:p

ecoli

AuldManKing wrote: »

Great post Ecoli.
I'm interested in the 'cumulative effect' aspect - is this something that you just 'judge' based on each individual or is it based on a particular coaching style (Daniels doesn't have many 20 milers / Hanson etc)??

Do you see this being an approach that would work for everyone or specifically people who are coming from a high aerobic base to begin with?

First off apologies as this is gonna be a long winded one as I don't think there is a short way of answering this one.

The cumulative effect is not so much a marathon specific thing but rather in relation to making a more rounded athlete in terms of overall running fitness as opposed to event specific fitness.

This might go against the grain of the general perception of marathon running at the moment but I don't think anyone should be going anywhere near marathon running in their first 3 years of running training atleast, they simply don't have the aerobic base to be able to handle the training.

Does that mean that I think there isn't a place for 20 mile runs in Novice training plans? No in fact I think it is probably the single most important run for them as it is as event specific as they can get and in the absence of the aerobic foundation it is the one which is going to be most beneficial to a Novice runner in terms of finishing the marathon in the best time possible. However the fact is if only doing 40-50 miles a week you are talking about one run being 40-50% of your overall training, This means the rest of the week is comprised of either resting up to ensuring that this session can be done or recovering from said session. It will prepare you as best possible for that particular marathon but overall it will not develop you into becoming a better runner.

Also when you look at 20 mile runs you need to take into account pace. There is no point in designating the same number of 20 milers for a 3hr marathon runner as a 4 hr because you need to account for time on your feet and the impact on recovery that has. K Bekele reportedly did weekly 30 mile runs for his Paris debut which seems crazy in the eyes of many people yet we ask people aiming for 4 hours to train at that intensity for longer (he was logging those runs in roughly 3 hours compared to + 3.30 on feet for a 4 hour runner to run easy pace 20 miler)

In terms of overall development I think in short term they are important but more long term I think it is not the most optimal approach and there is more to be gained from having a more rounded week in overall development.

There are some approaches off the top of my head from certain posters which are aimed around lower intensity running (i.e minimal sessions beyond Threshold/MP effort outside races) which it works well for because the way the training is designed their is less demand on the body through session and as such are better equipped to be able to recover from these efforts (although the higher mileage also plays a factor here) but in the majority of cases I would say many people would develop more efficiently by sustaining a higher volume well rounded weekly plan with less of a reliance on the long run.

To summarise it as a question, who is stronger a 70 mpw 5k runner or a 50 mpw Marathoner? (an oversimplification but you get the point I am trying to make)

career move

Food for thought thanks ecoli. One more question if you don't mind. I notice TbL is running a lot more doubles over the last few weeks. Is this to provide a different training stimulus or to keep the mileage high without too much stress? What would be the advantages of 6m a.m 5m p.m versus 11m straight for example

AuldManKing

ecoli wrote: »

First off apologies as this is gonna be a long winded one as I don't think there is a short way of answering this one.

The cumulative effect is not so much a marathon specific thing but rather in relation to making a more rounded athlete in terms of overall running fitness as opposed to event specific fitness.

This might go against the grain of the general perception of marathon running at the moment but I don't think anyone should be going anywhere near marathon running in their first 3 years of running training atleast, they simply don't have the aerobic base to be able to handle the training.

Does that mean that I think there isn't a place for 20 mile runs in Novice training plans? No in fact I think it is probably the single most important run for them as it is as event specific as they can get and in the absence of the aerobic foundation it is the one which is going to be most beneficial to a Novice runner in terms of finishing the marathon in the best time possible. However the fact is if only doing 40-50 miles a week you are talking about one run being 40-50% of your overall training, This means the rest of the week is comprised of either resting up to ensuring that this session can be done or recovering from said session. It will prepare you as best possible for that particular marathon but overall it will not develop you into becoming a better runner.

Also when you look at 20 mile runs you need to take into account pace. There is no point in designating the same number of 20 milers for a 3hr marathon runner as a 4 hr because you need to account for time on your feet and the impact on recovery that has. K Bekele reportedly did weekly 30 mile runs for his Paris debut which seems crazy in the eyes of many people yet we ask people aiming for 4 hours to train at that intensity for longer (he was logging those runs in roughly 3 hours compared to + 3.30 on feet for a 4 hour runner to run easy pace 20 miler)

In terms of overall development I think in short term they are important but more long term I think it is not the most optimal approach and there is more to be gained from having a more rounded week in overall development.

There are some approaches off the top of my head from certain posters which are aimed around lower intensity running (i.e minimal sessions beyond Threshold/MP effort outside races) which it works well for because the way the training is designed their is less demand on the body through session and as such are better equipped to be able to recover from these efforts (although the higher mileage also plays a factor here) but in the majority of cases I would say many people would develop more efficiently by sustaining a higher volume well rounded weekly plan with less of a reliance on the long run.

To summarise it as a question, who is stronger a 70 mpw 5k runner or a 50 mpw Marathoner? (an oversimplification but you get the point I am trying to make)

Great response - we should have more of this sort of thing on Boards.

Cleanman

AuldManKing wrote: »

Great response - we should have more of this sort of thing on Boards.

Agree - very informative for an enthusiastic running dummy like me!

As for the "Crest Summit" session - count me in, my training and overall development as a slop has been excellent over the last 6 months so I can help "pace" the session:rolleyes:

ecoli

Cleanman wrote: »

Agree - very informative for an enthusiastic running dummy like me!

As for the "Crest Summit" session - count me in, my training and overall development as a slop has been excellent over the last 6 months so I can help "pace" the session:rolleyes:

Everyone want's to be a pacer yet no one offering to be the bad cop (being Amsterdam and him lacking mod privileges need to make sure that the coke and hookers don't consume him so who wants to play babysitter for the group? :P)

ecoli

career move wrote: »

Food for thought thanks ecoli. One more question if you don't mind. I notice TbL is running a lot more doubles over the last few weeks. Is this to provide a different training stimulus or to keep the mileage high without too much stress? What would be the advantages of 6m a.m 5m p.m versus 11m straight for example

Strictly speaking if you compare the physiological benefits for a marathon runner an 11 mile single beats a double of same length every time however taking recovery into account is a factor - it is better to get 80% benefit from the doubles compared to a single if it means that you need 50% less recovery.

The doubles enable him to run his easy runs at a slightly quicker pace also at the same effort level and are balanced with longer sessions throughout the week to allow the harder days to be longer and more specific and still get both the miles and recovery.

I also feel that doubles act to stimulate recovery to a point where by the body is being forced to recover in 12 hours compared to say 24 hours in singles.

Alot of people would argue that their is no need to double until you are clocking roughly 60-70 mpw (or about 8 hours of work) and I would agree mostly however with TbL we needed to factor in life (i.e travel, work etc) and it made things slightly easier to fit in runs when you only need a 30-40 min slot and say an hour later on than perhaps finding 1.45-2 hours (making sure properly fueled in advanced, change, showered etc) in one block at any stage of the day

ecoli

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

And in addition, I've never enjoyed a training cycle as much. 47th consecutive day running and have had way more good days than bad plus it's been injury free.

TbL

This to me is biggest influential factor in TbL's progress over the last 4 months. It's a simple sport that gets overcomplicated to the point where enjoyment of the act rather than the results is lost. If you enjoy the "doing" and keep it sensible so that you don't get injured the consistency will be there and from that the world is your oyster with regards progression.

ThebitterLemon

Bad to basics!

Plan today called for 4m very easy am & 7 miles easy pm.

Got up just as the sun was coming up in Athlone this morning, there was an early morning fog just starting to lift and there was a nice chill in the air that was prickling my skin awake, perfect running conditions.

As usual it started off slow and took me a while to move through the gears, the legs felt good so I kept going out the Cavan road and did 6 miles @ 8.04

Got into Galway this evening and decided to do the pm session on the grass around the UCG pitches. Found this mentally tougher to do, as I find if I don't have a route plotted out in advance and am just making it up as I'm going along then the run seems longer/tougher. Got 7 miles easy in @ 8.01

Total daily miles 13.

Have a 10 miler at PMP on Saturday and a 22 miler on Sunday, so much for a relaxing weekend!

TbL

Cleanman

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Got up just as the sun was coming up in Athlone this morning

TbL

Around 9am then if we're to believe reports from the PP this morning:p

tang1

Athlone, work? Sorry for being nosey.

ThebitterLemon

tang1 wrote: »

Athlone, work? Sorry for being nosey.

Galway gang didn't want to go to Dublin, Dublin crowd didn't want to go to Galway, so I had to babysit the lot in a hotel in Athlone. And yes work not relatives

Would have preferred Dublin myself as I might have been able to get a Boards running date in!

TbL

ThebitterLemon

Plan today called for 8 miles easy.

Got this in early over my local hilly route. Again it took a while for the auld motor to warm up but was fine when I got going.

8 miles @ 7.58.

About 5 weeks to target race now, so I'm gonna try and clean up the diet big time and cut out all the crap I've been eating while travelling.

Was reading Dublin Runners log where he said he felt like an elephant compared with the lads that were on the podium. If he's elephantine that puts me in the Moschops category, so plenty of work to do

http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/predinosaurreptiles/p/moschops.htm


TbL

Cleanman

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Was reading Dublin Runners log where he said he felt like an elephant compared with the lads that were on the podium. If he's elephantine that puts me in the Moschops category, so plenty of work to do

Haha - I'm still laughing at you crashing the model celery and apple party in Limerick!

ThebitterLemon

The plan today called for 10 miles at PMP. I was more than a little apprehensive about this as only 10 days ago I had really struggled with a 3 x 3m at PMP in Tymon. Maybe the polluted Dublin air has a negative affect on my pure Bogger lungs

Anyway I brought the kids into their swimming class and headed off. City running is a bitch, traffic lights, up and down kerbs and swerving around pedestrians and dogs with extendable leads grrrrr!!

It was very warm and I was sweating bullets from the off. First mile had me chugging like a Dublin Viking tour bus but I soon got into the groove. This was my 50th straight day running and the strength Ecoli mentioned was really evident today. It wasn't comfortable but I clipped along nicely and finished strong.

Splits:

6.47
6.43
6.39
6.45
6.47
6.51
6.59
6.48
6.52
6.29

Very happy with that and it'll be interesting to see how the legs hold up on the 22 mile easy run tomorrow.

Starting the clean diet tomorrow, had an 8 year olds birthday party yesterday and the house was full of crap. I'll try and resist the leftovers tonight

TbL

menoscemo

I thought you were going for sub 3:04:58

ThebitterLemon

menoscemo wrote: »

I thought you were going for sub 3:04:58

Definitely still the plan Meno. I can guarantee I won't be going out at sub 3 pace. Today was just one of those days where the running sun, moon and stars came together. I entered Boston and I'm going to give Seville another big lash. Happy with anything around 3.03-3.05.

Sub 3 can wait, I'd like to think I can do a 2.55 within 12 months, big ask but that's what I'll be aiming for!

TbL

dublin runner

Great going. Really good to see the hard work and progress you are making. Need more logs like this to balance out the sh1te I am throwing up!