Ireland v. New Zealand build-up thread

danthefan

evil_seed wrote: »

He's gone backwards, whether that's down to bad player development or just poor form lasting too long it's hard to say. Either way he's not performing well enough since then

This is true enough. He's nowhere near playing as well as he was then. But I don't accept for one minute this stuff about how the game doesn't suit him anymore.

Pudsy33

GBXI wrote: »

Kearney's problem (and I do hope he is fit for Sunday) is that he is a very average counter-attacker/open-field runner.

Brilliant catcher and defender - he's just not inventive enough, like say Fitzgerald.

I'd say he's a better runner then he is a defender, from a tacking point of view anyway. Awful 1 on 1 tackler.

Berticus

danthefan wrote: »

This is true enough. He's nowhere near playing as well as he was then. But I don't accept for one minute this stuff about how the game doesn't suit him anymore.

I don't see how you can say that the game DOES NOT suit him as much as it used to.

Irrespective of whether he received the award in the 2011/2012 season, the focus in the game has massively shifted towards counter-attacking.

Kearney was possibly the best fullback in the world when rugby was more about kicking, but this is not the case anymore. Rob Kearney hasn't had a great season in an Ireland shirt for quite a while now.

Joe wants to develop a squad of 30-35 players. There's definitely alternatives at 15 going to be in that group. I definitely think zebo is an option. Gilroy perhaps too. They both offer more of a threat in my opinion.

Kanrith

Kearney was brilliant at counter attacking in 2012 and was one of Ireland's best players in the six nations of that year as well. He has just not looked the same after he had that injury later in the year.

former legend

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Don't buy this for a second. He played a test match there against SA and didn't look out of place. He has the skillset to play 15 and is definitely and option there for Ireland

If he was fit now I'd like to see him tried this weekend instead of Kearney

Haaaaang on there now. I didn't say anything about his skillset, but one game of "not looking out of place" in a heavily forwards-oriented match, followed by another joke of a match against second-rate opposition is no basis for inclusion in the team when other options exist.

If Munster start picking him at full-back, where their current options are (to be frank) sh*te, then we can talk.

.ak

evil_seed wrote: »

He's gone backwards, whether that's down to bad player development or just poor form lasting too long it's hard to say. Either way he's not performing well enough since then

I thought he was quite good prior the Lions tour, only coming back from a serious injury lay off.

Thing is, we've been spoiled by certain players. An 'off form' Kearney is still a very high end international full back.

I'm not worried about him being in the team, that's for sure.

Fireball07

Personally, I wouldn't be against a couple of players who have been 1st choice getting dropped. I'm not sure if a wake-up call is what they need...but a real problem is the lack of options behind them, particularly with injuries. If Zebo, Gilroy, Earls, a fully fit Luke, Olding, Henderson, TOD, Henry, Strauss were all available, we might be able to shake things up a bit...but we're not going to be able to do it much.


I wouldn't be against dropping Bowe, I'm not contesting his class, one of the best wingers we've ever had tbh but he's been poor in both of the last 2 games and even shaky defensively, which has always been a strong point. And I don't think he's been tearing things up for Ulster either. If Fitz and Trimble started on the wings, I'd be reasonably happy (I'd start McFadden if fit, although I would worry about him defensively against Savea or Jane...but I think we'll struggle anyway).

Murray and Jackson have to start. I'd start Marshall alongside BOD. BOD wasn't great but there's no one good enough to replace him yet, particularly with Olding out. And realistically, a Henshaw-Marshall partnership isn't going to be better than a BOD-Marshall one.


I'd bring in Tuohy or DOC, nothing against Toner, but I do think they offer more physicality and are more likely to complement POC, who also needs to up his game.

Heaslip is the last player I'd question, but there really is no one else. Move SOB or POM to 8 and bring in Locky or Jennings would be the only options, and I'm not sure that's a good move against NZ. If Henry was fit, I'd really consider it.




Realistically, we are likely to lose against NZ. Doing the basics very well, i.e. strong set-piece, strong defence, intelligent play might have been enough to beat Australia...it's what I wanted to see last weekend... in the end, we saw none of them. It won't be enough to beat NZ though.


And I don't want to delve into clichés with words like passion, etc. but when you're playing against a team that is better than you skill-wise, they can often be beaten by turning up with a huge ferocity/intensity particularly in the tackle area and at the breakdown. Play at a high pace, with a huge physicality. Ireland didn't do that last weekend at all....a few glimpses here and there, but we were too passive and defensively awful.

I would love to see us go out and defend manically...just hit them hard again and again, maybe try and rattle them.

Berticus

.ak wrote: »

I thought he was quite good prior the Lions tour, only coming back from a serious injury lay off.

Thing is, we've been spoiled by certain players. An 'off form' Kearney is still a very high end international full back.

I'm not worried about him being in the team, that's for sure.

Firstly, it's OK to criticise players, whether they are "legends" of the game in Ireland or new players being brought in.

I think it's fair to say there is a widespread opinion that Rob Kearney hasn't been at his peak in an irish jersey for a few years now.

Given that we are trying to develop a squad and depth in every position and the way the game has developed (eg. counter-attacking) I definitely think that Full-back is a position that we can afford to give a couple of other guys a shot there, perhaps Zebo is worth a shot.

That's not saying that Rob should be dropped outright but once other options are back fit I think it's one position that needs some development. Unfortunately right now, we don't have the option to to this but I'd like to see it happen in the 6 nations.

dtpc191991

Fireball07 wrote: »

Personally, I wouldn't be against a couple of players who have been 1st choice getting dropped. I'm not sure if a wake-up call is what they need...but a real problem is the lack of options behind them, particularly with injuries. If Zebo, Gilroy, Earls, a fully fit Luke, Olding, Henderson, TOD, Henry, Strauss were all available, we might be able to shake things up a bit...but we're not going to be able to do it much.


I wouldn't be against dropping Bowe, I'm not contesting his class, one of the best wingers we've ever had tbh but he's been poor in both of the last 2 games and even shaky defensively, which has always been a strong point. And I don't think he's been tearing things up for Ulster either. If Fitz and Trimble started on the wings, I'd be reasonably happy (I'd start McFadden if fit, although I would worry about him defensively against Savea or Jane...but I think we'll struggle anyway).

Murray and Jackson have to start. I'd start Marshall alongside BOD. BOD wasn't great but there's no one good enough to replace him yet, particularly with Olding out. And realistically, a Henshaw-Marshall partnership isn't going to be better than a BOD-Marshall one.


I'd bring in Tuohy or DOC, nothing against Toner, but I do think they offer more physicality and are more likely to complement POC, who also needs to up his game.

Heaslip is the last player I'd question, but there really is no one else. Move SOB or POM to 8 and bring in Locky or Jennings would be the only options, and I'm not sure that's a good move against NZ. If Henry was fit, I'd really consider it.




Realistically, we are likely to lose against NZ. Doing the basics very well, i.e. strong set-piece, strong defence, intelligent play might have been enough to beat Australia...it's what I wanted to see last weekend... in the end, we saw none of them. It won't be enough to beat NZ though.


And I don't want to delve into clichés with words like passion, etc. but when you're playing against a team that is better than you skill-wise, they can often be beaten by turning up with a huge ferocity/intensity particularly in the tackle area and at the breakdown. Play at a high pace, with a huge physicality. Ireland didn't do that last weekend at all....a few glimpses here and there, but we were too passive and defensively awful.



I would love to see us go out and defend manically...just hit them hard again and again, maybe try and rattle them.

Exactly, this plus a better scrum is spot on what England did on Saturday and even though they did not win they certainly had a good chance of doing so.

Mahatma Geansai

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

David Wallace advocating starting SOB at 8 and Heaslip at 7 this weekend.

Seriously?!

Makes sense. POM usually does most of the 8's work of returning kicks and the like anyway, and SOB would be much more explosive off the base of the scrum than Heaslip who is usually very hesitant when taking contact.

.ak

Berticus wrote: »

Firstly, it's OK to criticise players, whether they are "legends" of the game in Ireland or new players being brought in.

Absolutely. I just think it people need a bit of perspective when thinking about these guys. There's no doubt RK isn't playing as well as he did in 2011/12, but he's still by a country mile the best Irish qualified FB in the country, and still a serious operator in Europe.

I'd apply the same reasoning to BOD - who might've had a bad day at the office, is still one of Europe's best 13s.

People expect huge things from these guys, day in day out, and don't look at them in perspective, and when they don't deliver on these expectations they suddenly deserve to be dropped, that's my issue. A good example of this was earlier in the thread somebody mentioned they wanted BOD to be playing on the same level as he did against Cardiff earlier in the season every time he played. That's crazy talk. If somebody like Beck or Pisi put in performances like that week in week out we'd be calling them the best 13 in Europe.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Makes sense. POM usually does most of the 8's work of returning kicks and the like anyway, and SOB would be much more explosive off the base of the scrum than Heaslip who is usually very hesitant when taking contact.

Really?

Heaslip to 7?

Ardillaun

.ak wrote: »

Just on the McFadden thing, AFAIK he's clocked as the 2nd fastest player in the squad (when Zebo is in the squad) over 100m.

He played well last week, he is consistent and reliable, and I would certainly play him against the ABs. My criticism would be he lacks momentum - can you really see him forcing his way past Savea, for example? - and he doesn't back himself on the outside enough, something all natural wingers will tend to do.

What am I talking about. He's injured. Wishful thinking on my part - I WOULD have played him had he been fit.

.ak

Ardillaun wrote: »

He played well last week, he is consistent and reliable, and I would certainly play him against the ABs. My criticism would be he lacks momentum - can you really see him forcing his way past Savea, for example? - and he doesn't back himself on the outside enough, something all natural wingers will tend to do.

No, I'd agree there, but that's what I like about McFadden. He isn't going to skin somebody on the outside, but he isn't going to get bundled into touch for trying, which is what happens to 99% of wingers who try and out gas Savea.

Couple that with his hands, his foot work in traffic and his bulk and his albeit rare moments of magic he's truly a very good winger, but limited I'll admit. When everyone is fit for Ireland he'd still be in my 23.

hairyhippo

Our team last week had at least 5 players over 30! Can't understand why we don't give our young, potential players a chance to grow and experience playing in a green shirt. I can't understand the selection of Heaslip!! He hasn't played to his full potential in a green shirt for a long time, he has become complacent! Devin Toner ?? cant understand the fuss? Don't think Paddy Jackson has what it takes for the number 10 jersey. I think Madigan is best at number 13. Eoin Reddan was brutal last saturday. Kieran Marmion should definitely be on the bench. J.J Hanrahan should also be wearing a green jersey! If every player had the heart and strength of Peter O'Mahony, we would be unstoppable. Hopefully Joe will make good decisions for sunday. I have a feeling we might just do it!

Mahatma Geansai

.ak wrote: »

Really?

Heaslip to 7?

The numbers on their back don't really matter. The only difference would be getting a better carrier off the base of the scrum.

Ardillaun

I think the scrum rule changes will help the top sides against NZ. Their scrum isn't weak but it's not the best in the world and could be exposed in longer scrums. The French and English have to find ways of maximising this slight edge. Unfortunately, our lads seem to have run out of gas at precisely the wrong time to seek out even this feeble glimmer of hope.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The numbers on their back don't really matter. The only difference would be getting a better carrier off the base of the scrum.

Right.... But what about all the other duties a 7 has to do? Never mind the fact SOB is average off the base, especially off an unsteady scrum.

Synode

Cave and Jones called up to the squad. McFadden definitely out

andymx11

BOD a doubt. RK a MAJOR doubt.

Could end up being an injury crisis. Darcy to 13 Marshall to 12.

Kanrith

andymx11 wrote: »

BOD a doubt. RK a MAJOR doubt.

Could end up being an injury crisis. Darcy to 13 Marshall to 12.

I believe BOD is still likely to play, RK is worrying though.

jamiedav2011

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The numbers on their back don't really matter. The only difference would be getting a better carrier off the base of the scrum.

There's so much incorrect with that tbh.
Firstly Heaslip is exorbitently better than SOB at controlling off the base. Our scrum will likely not be going forward too.

Secondly, Heaslip has never, as far as I'm aware, played a senior game at 7. You'd advocate starting him there against NZ and McCaw? SOB has rarely played at 8 for Leinster in the last year.

Thirdly, eh, the only difference? What about all the rest of an opensides duties?!

If one of the posters here came up with it they'd rightly be slated.

Good to see you got a dig in at Heaslip though, 'hesitant' at taking contact eh?!

awec

If Cave is only there to bring variety to training then I'd rather he was sent back to Ulster where he'll actually get a game this weekend.

former legend

Calf injury for BOD, i.e. the same injury that has kept him of Leinster's season, Gavin Cummiskey describing it as "tightness" but he has to be a concern for Sunday.

ssaye2

http://inpho.ie/assignment/Ireland-Rugby-Squad-Training-Tuesday/cdhrashQZxuuNmRZGCyitw..a?ts=LcRIGf-N3134R3f_mNTdaA..a

http://www.sportsfile.com/more-images/1311432/

LostArt

Sometimes I wish I could grow D'arcys beard.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Cave with the squad, interesting, and Felix Jones

awec

What's with the tights?

bilston

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Cave with the squad, interesting,

Not before time

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

bilston wrote: »

Not before time

Agreed, considering Earl's injury I can't understand why he wasn't called up two weeks ago. Now with BOD out he could be called on for the biggest start of his life

I hope he is tbh, Darcy ins't the answer at 13