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Lack of new routes at Cork airport
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CSA Czech Airlines are resuming Cork-Prague after a 9 year hiatus. 2x weekly from next May.0
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highlydebased wrote: »CSA Czech Airlines are resuming Cork-Prague after a 9 year hiatus. 2x weekly from next May.
Great to have some good news!0 -
highlydebased wrote: »CSA Czech Airlines are resuming Cork-Prague after a 9 year hiatus. 2x weekly from next May.
Wait until Ryanair start the route.0 -
Could Cork Airport cope without Ryanair? As in is there enough airlines willing to fly to and from Cork to keep the place going if Cork Airport gave Ryanair an ultimatum?0
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Be costly for FR to try and muscle in, would have to pay full ammount as it would be an existing route now that CSA are back. Would also really show FR up for what they would be trying to do if they were to go down that route.0
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forzacalcio wrote: »Could Cork Airport cope without Ryanair? As in is there enough airlines willing to fly to and from Cork to keep the place going if Cork Airport gave Ryanair an ultimatum?
The short answer is no.
We are a small fish in the big pond that is Europe.
Despite the claim to being the real capital Cork is a small fish in the pond that is Ireland.
Examine carefully the destinations that RYANAIR serve from Cork.
What other Airlines in Europe either have the spare capacity or interest in serving them?0 -
Most people in Cork do not use that phrase "real capital", it's a bit embarrassing and I only hear it from those outside of cork these days.notharrypotter wrote: »The short answer is no.
We are a small fish in the big pond that is Europe.
Despite the claim to being the real capital Cork is a small fish in the pond that is Ireland.
Examine carefully the destinations that RYANAIR serve from Cork.
What other Airlines in Europe either have the spare capacity or interest in serving them?
As for Cork being a small fish in Ireland, the facts would indicate quite the opposite from our region accounting for 36% of the Industrial output of the country to having a GVA and GDP well in excess of the national average.
Also the population of Cork City and County is over 520,000 nearly 50% of the population of Dublin or nearly 33% of the population of the much vaunted GDA.
Between 1996 and 2011, the population of Cork has increased by 100,000 people most of it occurring in the suburbs of the city. That is a population increase in a 15 year period which is greater than the whole of Limerick City and suburbs. A whole new city if you wish.
In terms of the Airport catchment area, those living within an hour and a half driving time of Cork Airport and the catchment area reaches a significant population catchment that would include most of Munster (1 Million) and parts of Leinster.
Believe it or not, not all economic activity takes place in Dublin and if you examine those industries that have contributed most to our recent export led recovery, you will find a significant portion of them in the Pharma, Biotech, Medical Devices, Food and Beverage industries are based outside the Dublin area.
Add in the recent growth in employment in the IT sector particularly Apple and EMC and you have Cork now positioned as a significant employer in European terms in the IT sector. So Cork is critical to the future economic development of this country and it is certainly not a "small fish in the pond that is Ireland".
You clearly have little interest in the future of Cork Airport so what's your agenda?0 -
Finally some good news. From what I remember CSA also used to offer through booking to lots of destinations in Eastern Europe and Southern Europe. If this is the case it would open up a lot of new destinations from Cork, and might deliver inbound tourists from these regions too.0
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forzacalcio wrote: »Could Cork Airport cope without Ryanair? As in is there enough airlines willing to fly to and from Cork to keep the place going if Cork Airport gave Ryanair an ultimatum?
Cork airport practically does cope without Ryanair, if youre there early you see a line of green tails. Im not sure if theres more then one or two ryanir planes based in the airport.0 -
notharrypotter wrote: »The short answer is no.
We are a small fish in the big pond that is Europe.
Despite the claim to being the real capital Cork is a small fish in the pond that is Ireland.
Examine carefully the destinations that RYANAIR serve from Cork.
What other Airlines in Europe either have the spare capacity or interest in serving them?
Ireland is a very small pond too, and yet the Dublin - London route is (reportedly) the second busiest air route in the world. Air traffic isn't a straightforward function of population.
Cork has a huge multi-national petrochemical industry in addition to several large IT multinationals (Apple, EMC, VMWare etc.) which probably drive a lot of traffic through, in addition to the normal holiday/weekender traffic.0 -
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I was in Dublin recently, the ammount of tourists was unbelieveable, most tourists to Ireland want to see Dublin, why? because it's marketed properly, unless we get off our ass's and start to do something about it we will still be having these arguments about Cork Airport.0
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what's your agenda?
Stupidly trying to give a balanced Ireland inc perspective.
There is no mad conspiracy to do down Cork airport.
Economically things are different from the days of the "Celtic Tiger".
The Government has decided that Dublin Airport will be the prime air access for Ireland.
Because like Kerrygold butter its easier to market one core brand.0 -
I have heard it in cork county alright, but not the city.Most people in Cork do not use that phrase "real capital", it's a bit embarrassing and I only hear it from those outside of cork these days.
The south west region (Inc.cork and kerry) has the second highest GVA rate in ireland after Dublin, that makes sense considering cork is the second biggest city. Obviously this makes cork a rich enough city in Irish terms, which should midly help the airport.As for Cork being a small fish in Ireland, the facts would indicate quite the opposite from our region accounting for 36% of the Industrial output of the country to having a GVA and GDP well in excess of the national average.
Cork city has a population of 119,230.Also the population of Cork City and County is over 520,000 nearly 50% of the population of Dublin or nearly 33% of the population of the much vaunted GDA.
Urban is 198,582
And Metro is 399,216
Dublin city has a population of 527,612
An urban of 1,100,627
And a metro of 1,804,156.
Cork seems small now dosnt it?
If you are counting the county population, Thats invalid as cork county is massive.Between 1996 and 2011, the population of Cork has increased by 100,000 people most of it occurring in the suburbs of the city. That is a population increase in a 15 year period which is greater than the whole of Limerick City and suburbs. A whole new city if you wish.
I could not find figures for cork in the small time I have so I will go by your figures.
Limerick metro figures are 102,161 but that does not include the Clare subarbs which include over 20,000 people. Small I grant you.
Catchment area horribly overestimated there. Munster has a population of 1.2million, but 4 airports. Almost everywhere in muster is less than 1hour 30mins from an airport, if not all. Cork is within 1hour 30mins from most of Munster. Not a catchment area. At all.In terms of the Airport catchment area, those living within an hour and a half driving time of Cork Airport and the catchment area reaches a significant population catchment that would include most of Munster (1 Million) and parts of Leinster.
Possibly half of muster for most traffic.
[/quote="rebs23;93130121"]
Believe it or not, not all economic activity takes place in Dublin and if you examine those industries that have contributed most to our recent export led recovery, you will find a significant portion of them in the Pharma, Biotech, Medical Devices, Food and Beverage industries are based outside the Dublin area.
Add in the recent growth in employment in the IT sector particularly Apple and EMC and you have Cork now positioned as a significant employer in European terms in the IT sector. So Cork is critical to the future economic development of this country and it is certainly not a "small fish in the pond that is Ireland".
[/quote]
Galway and Waterford also host a significant amount of business simular to cork, Waterford with mostly medical type production and Galway with a lot of multinational bases.
Cork is not a small fish in the pond, but its certainly not a dominant one.
Cork has the population to increase the airport business by a considerable amount, but you are blowing it way out of proportion. 4million would be a good long-term goal, while shannon should have a similar one.0 -
Believe it or not, not all economic activity takes place in Dublin and if you examine those industries that have contributed most to our recent export led recovery, you will find a significant portion of them in the Pharma, Biotech, Medical Devices, Food and Beverage industries are based outside the Dublin area.Carnacalla wrote: »I have heard it in cork county alright, but not the city.
The south west region (Inc.cork and kerry) has the second highest GVA rate in ireland after Dublin, that makes sense considering cork is the second biggest city. Obviously this makes cork a rich enough city in Irish terms, which should midly help the airport.
Cork city has a population of 119,230.
Urban is 198,582
And Metro is 399,216
Dublin city has a population of 527,612
An urban of 1,100,627
And a metro of 1,804,156.
Cork seems small now dosnt it?
If you are counting the county population, Thats invalid as cork county is massive.
I could not find figures for cork in the small time I have so I will go by your figures.
Limerick metro figures are 102,161 but that does not include the Clare subarbs which include over 20,000 people. Small I grant you.
Catchment area horribly overestimated there. Munster has a population of 1.2million, but 4 airports. Almost everywhere in muster is less than 1hour 30mins from an airport, if not all. Cork is within 1hour 30mins from most of Munster. Not a catchment area. At all.
Possibly half of muster for most traffic.
Add in the recent growth in employment in the IT sector particularly Apple and EMC and you have Cork now positioned as a significant employer in European terms in the IT sector. So Cork is critical to the future economic development of this country and it is certainly not a "small fish in the pond that is Ireland".
[/quote]
Galway and Waterford also host a significant amount of business simular to cork, Waterford with mostly medical type production and Galway with a lot of multinational bases.
Cork is not a small fish in the pond, but its certainly not a dominant one.
Cork has the population to increase the airport business by a considerable amount, but you are blowing it way out of proportion. 4million would be a good long-term goal, while shannon should have a similar one.[/QUOTE]
Statistics are there, Cork has a population of 520,000 people no matter what way you look at it. You state that the metro are is around 400,000 still a lot more than the combined population of Limerick City and suburbs, Galway city and suburbs and waterford city and suburbs combined. Cork City and Suburbs is still about a quarter the size of Dublin which is not insignificant. A small city but a city none the less.
I really don't understand the point about half of Munster being within an an hour and a half from Cork as almost half the population of Munster lives in Cork! Many parts of Kerry, Tipperary, Waterford and Limerick are within an hour and a half from the Airport but anyway only making the point about the further potential of the Airport and that not all economic activity is based in Dublin.
Was making the point in the context of someone saying that Cork is a small fish in the Irish context. Would totally agree that there is significant industry in other areas. Just dislike this general incorrect commentary that Dublin is the only driver of economic activity in Ireland.0 -
The only debts written of by the government are due to DAAs mismanagement and running into the ground of shannon airport. The landbank is of nouse to the airport at all, Shannon airport cannot access any of shannon developments funds. End of story.
The land bank is to be used to setup business related to aviation to employ people and pay tax! Now I dont know if you are aware of the condition of this famous landbank but at least 50% percent of units are unoccupied and bringing in €0, as for the rest alot are in need of work. Simple put the land bank funds it self and the airport the same no crossovers no loans.
sure Aviation industry been built will benefit Snn but thats the idea.
The cork Airport situation is very similar to shannon its been lumped with a debt of €220m (which is more than SNN) and is loss making with number down! Sound familiar? Of course exact same thing DAA did in shannon.
lets get this clear DAA/Dublin Airport Authority care only about suckin pax from the rest of ireland. Starve our competition of Cork and Shannon and you know it worked Snn ork but lost huge traffic!
Shannon fought hard and got free left debt free sink or swim and its going very well so far, Cork want to do the same and same deal, but will the people of cork fight for it like clare? Thats up to them0 -
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Carnacalla wrote: »Is there enough people trying?
When Shannon lost its Heathrow slots there was marches in Limerick!
That's actually the problem. Limerick/Shannonside have a long and distinguished history of (and I do not mean this in a derogatory way) playing the poor mouth. That are masters at it, and their politicians know they'll get it in the neck if they don't agitate for the Midwest. Our lumps down here do nothing because nothing is asked of them. It's ironic that there should be such angst in Cork over the setting up of a long overdue national water utility, but a hugely vital piece of infrastructure to the greater Cork region, is allowed to wither without a word from the public. A debt free, vibrant Cork Airport would be a massive boost to the Cork economy.0 -
Carnacalla wrote: »When Shannon lost its Heathrow slots there was marches in Limerick!
So? People seem to think airlines are charities. This forum clearly shows how people can't quite grasp the fact airlines are profit and yield driven (despite a few attempts). Shannon operations have been the thorn in Aer Lingus' side for years. By replacing the A332 there with B752's seems to have finally made the long-haul operation there both profitable and sustainable. EI also switched there A320 based aircraft at SNN to A319 to further try and drive profit. They seem to have a successful balance of year-round and seasonal demand now at Shannon for example with Summer Sun routes to Faro and Malaga and Winter Sun routes to Lanzarote.
Aer Lingus recent decisions at Cork have primarily been a direct consequence of unsustainable competition on the part of Ryanair and erratic costs at Cork which cannot sustain year-round city connections outside of main hub airports. Lisbon and Nice are gone as a result of;
A - Ryanair launching Shannon-Nice undercutting Aer Lingus on Cork-Nice by having practicly zero fees at Shannon while Aer Lingus pays full cost.
B - Ryanair launching Dublin-Lisbon undercutting again Aer Lingus on both Dublin-Lisbon and Cork-Lisbon but this time both carriers pay full charges at DUB as Aer Lingus was already an existing operator on the DUB-LIS route. A consequence of a near doubling of capacity on that route and complete (unsustainable) undercutting of fares, leads to both fares/yields on those two routes for Aer Lingus dropping and simply Aer Lingus will make the decision to cut Cork-Lisbon and try and further recover both fares/yields on Dublin-Lisbon.
The fare is the basic cost, but yield is the real driver of profit this involves anything from buying meals to bags to seats etc. Once a route becomes yield driven (i.e. Sells nearly more then the intake from basic fare) it is a winner for the operating airline examples from Cork would include;
Aer Lingus to Amsterdam and London as well as on all the Summer Sun routes to Alicante, Barcelona, Faro, Lanzarote, Malaga etc.
Ryanair to London Stansted as well as its Summer Sun routes.
The above routes can handle competition and still create serious profit because, they draw a serious amount of passengers for obvious reasons examples being Alicante/Faro/Lanzarote and Malaga. But routes to say Brussels/Rome etc do not have that luxury especially from regional airports. So when the downturn occurred there was a near complete cessation of weekend trips to European cities this ultimately led to the ceasing of Aer Lingus routes to Madrid, Prague and Rome etc.
Then during the downturn Ryanair sought to target existing operators at Cork without actually making any effort to find its own niche. Granted its acceptable they would seek to provide more choice to Sun/Winter routes (which can handle it) but chasing Wizz Air on all its routes leading it to exit the market as the airline done to easyJet from Cork and in previous years examples including Go and MyTravel Lite is completely and totally unacceptable. Whatever about a free market competition it is;
A - An actual deterrent to competition.
B - A way of actually limiting supply and increasing the cost to the consumer.
That is why I believe Cork's problem is and has always been Ryanair. This same airlines bargains Cork off against regional airports including Kerry and primarily Shannon and on occasion Dublin. Ryanair when they had practically booted Wizz Air out of Cork had seriously profitable and full flights to/from Poland as well as to Krakow and Warsaw with Irish passengers. They moved these routes to Shannon as a point to Cork to cut charges further. The routes have since not enjoyed the same success level as they had at Cork and that's from a source I personally know.
People on here seem to think, Cork Airport and its staff can simply say to Ryanair launch whatever routes you like and there'll be no charges. They cannot do that. There are hundreds of staff at Cork Airport who have wages to be paid never mind the massive mountain of debt which involves another completely different discussion.
Airlines everywhere globally pay a premium at airports they fly to based on the local catchment, Cork Airport has the second largest catchment potential in the country. Cork Airport actually charges low fares then for example Bristol in the UK, look the difference in the easyJet operation there which could particularly on City routes be nearly replicated here with the likes of possible routes to Berlin, Budapest, Frankfurt, Krakow, Madrid, Rome, Warsaw and Zurich. The airport also now has to suffer the consequences of the loss of Lisbon and Nice.
Cork-Brussels will return in Summer 2015 with Aer Lingus and I believe it will be a Summer only route until such a time the market further recovers to an extent where it is viable during the Winter season. Ryanair recently targeting Aer Lingus on its Dublin-Brussels route won't further help matters.
Finally I'll finish by saying my answer to the current situation for the airport is to refuse to negotiate with Ryanair, continue to let them cut routes and continue to let them say what they like in the press.
My doing this, the CAA give themselves the backbone to approach International carriers and to give them confidence there is potential in Cork we have seen this only this week with CSA and there are further rumours another legacy carrier will announce a Cork route for Summer 2015. The CAA need to work with Aer Lingus, Stobart Air and International airlines to grow Cork Airport. Ryanair has been an unwelcome entrant in Cork ever since it commenced operations there, by forcing out competition and reducing nearly all viable City routes by the way it conducts its operation via targeting primarily Aer Lingus as well as those who couldn't handle the pressure being easyJet and Wizz Air to overall limit competition and restrict demand as clearly demonstrated last year by moving profitable Cork routes to Shannon.
Cork Airport in its history has never had political support, saddled with debt and refused help despite efforts from the CAA. Shannon is the complete opposite a basket case, with favours here there and everywhere to overall support a declining local economy and region.
Regards,
A former Cork Airport employee and concerned Corkonian.0 -
So? People seem to think airlines are charities. This forum clearly shows how people can't quite grasp the fact airlines are profit and yield driven (despite a few attempts). Shannon operations have been the thorn in Aer Lingus' side for years. By replacing the A332 there with B752's seems to have finally made the long-haul operation there both profitable and sustainable. EI also switched there A320 based aircraft at SNN to A319 to further try and drive profit. They seem to have a successful balance of year-round and seasonal demand now at Shannon for example with Summer Sun routes to Faro and Malaga and Winter Sun routes to Lanzarote.
Aer Lingus recent decisions at Cork have primarily been a direct consequence of unsustainable competition on the part of Ryanair and erratic costs at Cork which cannot sustain year-round city connections outside of main hub airports. Lisbon and Nice are gone as a result of;
A - Ryanair launching Shannon-Nice undercutting Aer Lingus on Cork-Nice by having practicly zero fees at Shannon while Aer Lingus pays full cost.
B - Ryanair launching Dublin-Lisbon undercutting again Aer Lingus on both Dublin-Lisbon and Cork-Lisbon but this time both carriers pay full charges at DUB as Aer Lingus was already an existing operator on the DUB-LIS route. A consequence of a near doubling of capacity on that route and complete (unsustainable) undercutting of fares, leads to both fares/yields on those two routes for Aer Lingus dropping and simply Aer Lingus will make the decision to cut Cork-Lisbon and try and further recover both fares/yields on Dublin-Lisbon.
The fare is the basic cost, but yield is the real driver of profit this involves anything from buying meals to bags to seats etc. Once a route becomes yield driven (i.e. Sells nearly more then the intake from basic fare) it is a winner for the operating airline examples from Cork would include;
Aer Lingus to Amsterdam and London as well as on all the Summer Sun routes to Alicante, Barcelona, Faro, Lanzarote, Malaga etc.
Ryanair to London Stansted as well as its Summer Sun routes.
The above routes can handle competition and still create serious profit because, they draw a serious amount of passengers for obvious reasons examples being Alicante/Faro/Lanzarote and Malaga. But routes to say Brussels/Rome etc do not have that luxury especially from regional airports. So when the downturn occurred there was a near complete cessation of weekend trips to European cities this ultimately led to the ceasing of Aer Lingus routes to Madrid, Prague and Rome etc.
Then during the downturn Ryanair sought to target existing operators at Cork without actually making any effort to find its own niche. Granted its acceptable they would seek to provide more choice to Sun/Winter routes (which can handle it) but chasing Wizz Air on all its routes leading it to exit the market as the airline done to easyJet from Cork and in previous years examples including Go and MyTravel Lite is completely and totally unacceptable. Whatever about a free market competition it is;
A - An actual deterrent to competition.
B - A way of actually limiting supply and increasing the cost to the consumer.
That is why I believe Cork's problem is and has always been Ryanair. This same airlines bargains Cork off against regional airports including Kerry and primarily Shannon and on occasion Dublin. Ryanair when they had practically booted Wizz Air out of Cork had seriously profitable and full flights to/from Poland as well as to Krakow and Warsaw with Irish passengers. They moved these routes to Shannon as a point to Cork to cut charges further. The routes have since not enjoyed the same success level as they had at Cork and that's from a source I personally know.
People on here seem to think, Cork Airport and its staff can simply say to Ryanair launch whatever routes you like and there'll be no charges. They cannot do that. There are hundreds of staff at Cork Airport who have wages to be paid never mind the massive mountain of debt which involves another completely different discussion.
Airlines everywhere globally pay a premium at airports they fly to based on the local catchment, Cork Airport has the second largest catchment potential in the country. Cork Airport actually charges low fares then for example Bristol in the UK, look the difference in the easyJet operation there which could particularly on City routes be nearly replicated here with the likes of possible routes to Berlin, Budapest, Frankfurt, Krakow, Madrid, Rome, Warsaw and Zurich. The airport also now has to suffer the consequences of the loss of Lisbon and Nice.
Cork-Brussels will return in Summer 2015 with Aer Lingus and I believe it will be a Summer only route until such a time the market further recovers to an extent where it is viable during the Winter season. Ryanair recently targeting Aer Lingus on its Dublin-Brussels route won't further help matters.
Finally I'll finish by saying my answer to the current situation for the airport is to refuse to negotiate with Ryanair, continue to let them cut routes and continue to let them say what they like in the press.
My doing this, the CAA give themselves the backbone to approach International carriers and to give them confidence there is potential in Cork we have seen this only this week with CSA and there are further rumours another legacy carrier will announce a Cork route for Summer 2015. The CAA need to work with Aer Lingus, Stobart Air and International airlines to grow Cork Airport. Ryanair has been an unwelcome entrant in Cork ever since it commenced operations there, by forcing out competition and reducing nearly all viable City routes by the way it conducts its operation via targeting primarily Aer Lingus as well as those who couldn't handle the pressure being easyJet and Wizz Air to overall limit competition and restrict demand as clearly demonstrated last year by moving profitable Cork routes to Shannon.
Cork Airport in its history has never had political support, saddled with debt and refused help despite efforts from the CAA. Shannon is the complete opposite a basket case, with favours here there and everywhere to overall support a declining local economy and region.
Regards,
A former Cork Airport employee and concerned Corkonian.
So Ryanair is the big bad wolf? You seem to think that LCC airlines are only sustainable in the areas with larger catchment, I agree that cork should not let Ryanair rule them, but I would not travel anywhere near as much if there was no Ryanair in Shannon or Cork.
Example: I flew to lanzarote from cork this year. The fare came to €198.00 per person. Compare that to Aer Lingus' far higher €456.98. Imagne that was the exclusive fare at cork? I certainly wouldn't be paying a 230% premium to support the airport.
London Heathrow, €150 return when you book months in advance compared to ryanairs €40 to stansted.
In my view, (proper)Low Cost Carriers are the only viable way to sustain a route that dosnt have the high yields.0 -
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Carnacalla wrote: »So Ryanair is the big bad wolf? You seem to think that LCC airlines are only sustainable in the areas with larger catchment, I agree that cork should not let Ryanair rule them, but I would not travel anywhere near as much if there was no Ryanair in Shannon or Cork.
Example: I flew to lanzarote from cork this year. The fare came to €198.00 per person. Compare that to Aer Lingus' far higher €456.98. Imagne that was the exclusive fare at cork? I certainly wouldn't be paying a 230% premium to support the airport.
London Heathrow, €150 return when you book months in advance compared to ryanairs €40 to stansted.
In my view, (proper)Low Cost Carriers are the only viable way to sustain a route that dosnt have the high yields.
LCC's are primarily only sustainable in larger regional area's. Look at what's happening in France and the leaks of Ryanair's deals with French regional airports. Look what Ryanair has done to Girona Airport in Spain which it marketed at Girona (Barcelona), literally moving its base there from nearly 10 aircraft to 1. Primarily because, as soon as the real charges (after support schemes and/or base deals end) come into effect the LCC can't sustain the route. Ryanair has since moved nearly all its operation there into the larger Barcelona El-Prat Airport, which has a larger direct market and can sustain competition as well as provide the yield LCC's need.
If Ryanair flew for example Cork - Frankfurt Hahn daily the route would bleed dry.
If Lufthansa flew daily from Cork to Frankfurt they wouldn't only be catering for point to point traffic but primarily connections and most probably the route would be successful.
Aer Lingus fares can be quite high but at the end of the day are demand driven, people choose to pay those fares. Not one person is forced to pay any fare. It's free market. But going back to Shannon, Ryanair at one stage there had 6 based aircraft serving a serious amount of routes, as soon as the recession hit, costs went up and demand collapsed. They slashed the base primarily to stop the bleeding. Your assement of LCC's as being an only solution to a route with a low yield demonstrates your lack of comprehension of what I'm exactly talking about;
LCC's target yield driven routes because the LCC base fare does not cover the overall cost of a route. You really think Ryanair made profit alone from its almost now historic €9 fares? The yield generated through bags/sales on board etc recovered some of those costs.0 -
LCC's are primarily only sustainable in larger regional area's. Look at what's happening in France and the leaks of Ryanair's deals with French regional airports. Look what Ryanair has done to Girona Airport in Spain which it marketed at Girona (Barcelona), literally moving its base there from nearly 10 aircraft to 1. Primarily because, as soon as the real charges (after support schemes and/or base deals end) come into effect the LCC can't sustain the route. Ryanair has since moved nearly all its operation there into the larger Barcelona El-Prat Airport, which has a larger direct market and can sustain competition as well as provide the yield LCC's need.
If Ryanair flew for example Cork - Frankfurt Hahn daily the route would bleed dry.
If Lufthansa flew daily from Cork to Frankfurt they wouldn't only be catering for point to point traffic but primarily connections and most probably the route would be successful.
Aer Lingus fares can be quite high but at the end of the day are demand driven, people choose to pay those fares. Not one person is forced to pay any fare. It's free market. But going back to Shannon, Ryanair at one stage there had 6 based aircraft serving a serious amount of routes, as soon as the recession hit, costs went up and demand collapsed. They slashed the base primarily to stop the bleeding. Your assement of LCC's as being an only solution to a route with a low yield demonstrates your lack of comprehension of what I'm exactly talking about;
LCC's target yield driven routes because the LCC base fare does not cover the overall cost of a route. You really think Ryanair made profit alone from its almost now historic €9 fares? The yield generated through bags/sales on board etc recovered some of those costs.
I'm not talking about flying into the middle of Germany and being told its kind of near Frankfurt.
I'm saying that full cost airlines cannot sustain a route from a small regional airport, but a LCC can. Sure they have to make up the cost in some way, but the lower staff costs/airport fees/ efficient aircraft running makes the running cost of the airline smaller.0 -
Carnacalla wrote: »I'm not talking about flying into the middle of Germany and being told its kind of near Frankfurt.
I'm saying that full cost airlines cannot sustain a route from a small regional airport, but a LCC can. Sure they have to make up the cost in some way, but the lower staff costs/airport fees/ efficient aircraft running makes the running cost of the airline smaller.
Nope the larger an airline is, makes the cost smaller. The above is only beneficial to the local operation. That's why for example airlines like bmibaby failed an LCC as well.
I wasn't talking about flying into the middle of Frankfurt, I'm trying to show you how beneficial it is to have carriers like Lufthansa on a Frankfurt route there's more potential in that then for example if Ryanair flew to Hahn.
Carriers like Ryanair can make decision like they did with easyJet, to undercut them at a loss just to drive them out of the market. That is unfair competition. ''Full cost carriers'' can by the way make money out of regional airports, Aer Lingus although not a full cost carrier makes serious money out of its Cork to AMS/CDG/LHR routes.
Again my point, the CAA need to target their focus away from Ryanair, than can be only beneficial to Cork, because Ryanair have nothing to offer only seasonal routes with no feed/connections. The B738 is actually to big an aircraft for provincial UK routes e.g. East Midlands, never mind domestically. That's why Aer Lingus Regional is such a success, demand is matched with much higher frequencies than Ryanair could ever offer.
How anyone can also someone defend the likes of Ryanair taking on EI Regional (who subsequently vacated the route) on SNN-MAN is frankly beyond me. How can a route going from 3x daily to 1x daily be classed as good for Shannon?0 -
Nope the larger an airline is, makes the cost smaller. The above is only beneficial to the local operation. That's why for example airlines like bmibaby failed an LCC as well.
I wasn't talking about flying into the middle of Frankfurt, I'm trying to show you how beneficial it is to have carriers like Lufthansa on a Frankfurt route there's more potential in that then for example if Ryanair flew to Hahn.
Carriers like Ryanair can make decision like they did with easyJet, to undercut them at a loss just to drive them out of the market. That is unfair competition. ''Full cost carriers'' can by the way make money out of regional airports, Aer Lingus although not a full cost carrier makes serious money out of its Cork to AMS/CDG/LHR routes.
Again my point, the CAA need to target their focus away from Ryanair, than can be only beneficial to Cork, because Ryanair have nothing to offer only seasonal routes with no feed/connections. The B738 is actually to big an aircraft for provincial UK routes e.g. East Midlands, never mind domestically. That's why Aer Lingus Regional is such a success, demand is matched with much higher frequencies than Ryanair could ever offer.
How anyone can also someone defend the likes of Ryanair taking on EI Regional (who subsequently vacated the route) on SNN-MAN is frankly beyond me. How can a route going from 3x daily to 1x daily be classed as good for Shannon?
Ryanair flying to Heathrow would not make sense as a LCC. Its hard to have a LCC flying in and out of heathrow. Aer Lingus is apparently a LCC but its more like an airline with a LCC service but a Full Cost airline price. Checking prices from DUB-LHR next June and Aer Lingus were generally more expensive than BA.
Can a regional airport fill a full cost airline plane? Is there enough people making transfers and willing to pay a high price to get to the city?
The SNN-MAN service is a joke. Ryanair will restrict the airports growth. The Manchester service always had a lot connecting on T/A flights but not on Ryanair.0 -
Carnacalla wrote: »Ryanair flying to Heathrow would not make sense as a LCC. Its hard to have a LCC flying in and out of heathrow. Aer Lingus is apparently a LCC but its more like an airline with a LCC service but a Full Cost airline price. Checking prices from DUB-LHR next June and Aer Lingus were generally more expensive than BA.
Can a regional airport fill a full cost airline plane? Is there enough people making transfers and willing to pay a high price to get to the city?
The SNN-MAN service is a joke. Ryanair will restrict the airports growth. The Manchester service always had a lot connecting on T/A flights but not on Ryanair.
Aer Lingus is a hybrid carrier, with mixed fare offerings (Low/Plus/Flex). Carnacalla, you keep pointing out Aer Lingus are expensive. But yet there load factors continue to grow, as does profit and at the end of the day people make there own judgement. What you remark as expensive might not be to others who appreciate service and value.
Lufthansa generally using their regional operation make serious money filling aircraft for connections via their Hubs at FRA/MUC particularly from Polish Regional airports. Cork has never had a direct non-stop feed to FRA, even though Aer Lingus were set to launch it about 2 years back.
Fully agree with your last point and that's what I am trying to put across, having services which offer connecting passengers reduce the risk of failure because the point to point traffic (which LCC's cater to) is complemented by connections. That's why if ORK-DUB returns with EIR it will more than likely operate profitably.0 -
I'voticed that Ryanair are promoting routes out of Dublin in a major way on the Examiner, really showing their intentions or lack of them for Cork. Lets hope this new route to Prague is supported.0
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Here is a reply Paschal Donoghue gave to a TD who I emailed regarding this issue.As the Deputy will be aware, the DAA is the body charged with statutory responsibility to manage, operate and develop Dublin and Cork Airports. In these circumstances, responsibility for addressing the fall in passenger numbers and the viability of the airport is a matter for DAA and Cork Airport management, and is not a matter in which I have a direct role.
Since the Government decision to maintain Cork Airport as part of the DAA Group, the DAA has put in place arrangements for the airport to be run as a stand-alone business unit within the Company, properly resourced at management level locally. In addition, two of the members of the DAA Board represent Cork, thereby ensuring that issues pertaining to Cork Airport are considered at the highest level.
Since coming into office, I have met the Chair and Chief Executive of DAA and, last September, I visited Cork Airport and met with the Managing Director and some local public representatives to discuss the challenges and opportunities for growth that exist for the Airport. I have also had the opportunity in recent weeks to meet with Cork Chamber of Commerce and Cork Airport was discussed at that meeting.
I am very aware of the importance of Cork Airport for business and tourism in the Cork region. I am also aware of the continuing decline in passenger numbers over recent years at the Airport. This is why, at the request of my predecessor, a high level stakeholder body, the Cork Airport Development Council (CADC), was established by DAA. The aim of the CADC is to provide a forum for senior stakeholders from a range of sectoral and geographic backgrounds who have an interest in the development of Cork Airport to engage with management at the airport and to help contribute to traffic and route growth. The Council is chaired by DAA Chairman and comprises senior representatives from the tourism and business sectors in the Cork region who are actively engaged in achieving the goals set for the Council.
I believe that there are opportunities, particularly in the tourism sector, to grow incoming passenger numbers to the Cork region. I am calling on all relevant stakeholders to work together to exploit those opportunities and to deliver benefits not just for the airport but for the wider region.
In relation to the intention of Aer Lingus to suspend routes from its summer 2015 schedule, it should be noted that it is a matter for the airline to decide which routes they will serve based on their own commercial judgements, taking account of the demand for services. Any decision to suspend a route is an operational decision for Aer Lingus management. I am nevertheless disappointed by the decision of the Company in this instance.
I am aware that the DAA's objective is to halt the decline in passenger numbers in the short term and to return Cork Airport to growth in the future. I am confident that the DAA and Cork Airport management, working with the stakeholders in the region, can achieve this objective.
Is it me or is this riddled with contradictions and hand wringing?0 -
What pascal has to acknowledge, is that the DAA will make sure cork dosnt grow much or at all, because its not in their interests.0
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Wasn't reus one of the axed routes in the new Ryanair summer schedule? Its now bookable 3x weekly for June and July.0
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I see The Taoiseach is making an announcement at Knock airport tomorrow morning.
Michael O Leary is making an announcement at Shannon tomorrow.
Mean while in Cork, the rut continues.0
This discussion has been closed.
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