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Direct Democracy Ireland: the split?
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You don't understand. This would mean the banks lose more money. The banks don't have access to free money, it's borrowed (from depositors or markets, like every bank in the world) and they have to pay interest on this money they are lending out. It doesn't make any sense for them to lend out money more cheaply than they can get it themselves.
If the banks are loosing money how are they still paying out bonus's and handsom salaries. If i couldnt pay a loan back to the bank i would be told to get rid of X Y Z in order to free up money to pay them back. Now when a bank cannot pay the money they borrowed back they pass the cost onto the people who are actually paying back the money by upping repayments. This then forces the people who were meeting repayments into arrears, they then cannot pay the loan back so where does the bank get the money then?
If the banks are currently making money (not just mortgages, but in general), which they obviously are then freeze interest rates on mortgages and help things to stabilise.
Well the banks shouldnt have loaned out all the money they didnt have shouldnt they.Well, they should've got a fixed rate or perhaps a tracker then, shouldn't they?
Yeah, yours is a valid point
It's not financial security for the banks though, and we can't afford to pump even more money into the banks just so they can hand out free money to mortgage holders. Its unjust, especially to taxpayers who are renters.
Has anything been done to improve the financial security of banks in terms of changing there practices? the only thing iv noticed is the introduction of legislation and creation of a new court that allows banks to reposes houses from families faster.
If im paying interest on a loan, how have i got free money?
The country cannot afford to throw good money after bad? lol thats priceless.See my last point. It's unjust, and it would be throwing good money after bad, and the country can't afford it anyway.
From haughies silk shirts to Tierneys failed incinerator which got him a promotion and even more money. Its an extensive list.
Your expecting people to bury our heads and take it up the arse because it was 5 years ago, the consequences of this act of treason will last many more than 5 years and will only effect the average joe, not the boyos that committed the act be it either the banks that gave multiple massive loans to speculators and dodgy developers or the minority in the Dáil that decided it was a great idea to let the tax payer foot the bill for the reckless lending, while skimming over drink stained papers in the bar and committing scenes of sexual harrasment in the chamber. Nothing about this should be accepted based on the fact it happend 5 years ago. Thats a disgusting attitude to have.No point harping on about the events of 5 years ago, what's done is done.
I read that they hadnt changed, i was asking if you knew any different?So you don't know what the system is but just want to complain about it anyway?
The evidence stacks up against the people involved in corruption and greed, have a look.No, allegations are in abundance. Evidence not proven in court isn't evidence.
Transparency International doesn't rate us too badly. That's not to say we can't improve, but we much prefer the poor mouth in this country to taking a balanced view of things.
If everything was done above board and accounted for then the people accused would have cases all over the place for defamation/slander/libel and all the rest.
How can you have a balanced view when there is no social/economic balance?
I base "more than likely is" on the track records of TD's, Ministers, Councillors and how they look after themsleves and scratch the backs of their buddys.What do you base 'more than likely it is' on? It is like saying that if the Gardai catch a murderer living in your street, there must be a murderer in every street.
I still dont see your alternative ideas?
Are you of the opinion everything is ok?0 -
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humberklog wrote: »I've been following DDI on their website and waiting for some straight forward questions (not by me) to be answered. They haven't been answered. Really simple questions too.
So with what is an essentially dead website it lead me onto their member's FB pages.
Does anyone know if their stance on Justin Beiber is a DDI official stance? He pops up a lot, they called for this Justin Beiber guy to be banned, I don't know what that means and nor was it explained. Then DDI reported about this young man going to prison (or something) and now DDI are reporting on a petition to deport him.
I wonder how can DDI call for a ban on a young Canadian singer? And how will this ban be implemented? and what country is DDI plannning to deport him from and more importantly: what country is DDI planning to deport this child singer to?
I've got to admit that I'd never heard of this Canadian pop sensation until the chairman of DDI brought him to my attention. Will DDI be running on a Ban the Beiber banner during the upcoming local elections?
do you have a link?
and did you ever think of becoming a comedian?0 -
do you have a link?
and did you ever think of becoming a comedian? do you have a link?
and did you ever think of becoming a comedian?
This bit is copied from DDI's chairman's FB page from 12 hours ago. I'm writing on an ipad and find it difficult to link the page...
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More than 70,000 people have signed a petition to deport Justin Bieber: http://t.co/qgMLD0pyMB - But don't get your hopes up if you signed!
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The call for JBeiber to be banned occurred on DDI's chairman's twitter feed a few weeks back and I really can't e bothered scrolling through his twitter feed.
The reporting of JBeiber's proposed sentence popped up on DDI's chairman's FB feed.
I selected the Justin Beider items because that is news and opinion on a subject I would never have heard about without browsing sites connected to DDI. I'm browsing DDI's sites because I'm interested in how a new party could evolve. However, for the most part, these pages have just got clogged up with news links which I've already read.
All except for Justin Beiber news- that was the only piece of news (and there was a lot) linked that I hadn't bothered to read myself.
Other things I got from reading DDI's and it's members FB pages this week:
DDI is a left wing pro abortion party which is being ignored by the media. I thought before this week that DDI was slightly socially right wing and some of its founders were anti abortion and that DDI's message hasn't been reported in the media because the message is garbled and confusing.
Wicklow branch is having a meeting this week where its speakers are Ben Gilroy and Ray Whitehead- I thought this was interesting as no one from the present committee looks to be represented.
Philip Blond briefly touched on the process of Recall at the Monster meeting of monsters in the RDS at the weekend. DDI jumped all over this from a number of aspects- that somehow the process of Recall is DDI's toy and not the Reform Alliances. That perhaps it would be good for DDI to talk further with Phillip Blond (Philip Blonde is centrist right and anti abortion). Philip Blond is not a member of RA, he was merely a guest speaker.
DDI appears to be confused about the remit of the PAC. DDI suggested the PAC might look into the sacking of Gemma O Doherty from the Irish Independent. This is a story that I do think should be blasted across papers but what on earth would the PAC be doing investigating this?
Waterford DDI is having a meeting and that FB page is ran very well. He comes across as a good straightforward guy.
DDI is having a historical AGM meeting on Saturday in Drogheda. Not the easiest of places to get to for a lot of the country. Double bussing for most.
These are the bits of stories that I picked up and how I interpreted them in the last week. This is how they read to me. I could be getting the message wrong. But my point is that the message is often confusing to an ordinary Joe like myself.
And no, I've no intentions of becoming a comedian.0 -
humberklog wrote: »________________________________________________________________
More than 70,000 people have signed a petition to deport Justin Bieber: http://t.co/qgMLD0pyMB - But don't get your hopes up if you signed!
________________________________________________________________
The call for JBeiber to be banned occurred on DDI's chairman's twitter feed a few weeks back and I really can't e bothered scrolling through his twitter feed.
The reporting of JBeiber's proposed sentence popped up on DDI's chairman's FB feed.
I selected the Justin Beider items because that is news and opinion on a subject I would never have heard about without browsing sites connected to DDI. I'm browsing DDI's sites because I'm interested in how a new party could evolve. However, for the most part, these pages have just got clogged up with news links which I've already read.
All except for Justin Beiber news- that was the only piece of news (and there was a lot) linked that I hadn't bothered to read myself.
I dont understand, was this from the chairmans personal FB and twitter page or an official DDI page? If its from the chairmans personal page then i would take it as it being his opinion and not an official DDI stance. That link you posted is an article written by someone in the US wanting to deport him from the US back to Canada.humberklog wrote: »Other things I got from reading DDI's and it's members FB pages this week:
DDI is a left wing pro abortion party which is being ignored by the media. I thought before this week that DDI was slightly socially right wing and some of its founders were anti abortion and that DDI's message hasn't been reported in the media because the message is garbled and confusing.
I think your term pro abortion is wrong, what some members of DDI including myself believe in is pro choice. Pro choice however does not mean anyone of any age can walk in to a clinic and have this procedure done at any stage of the pregnancy as many times as they like. Pro choice for me should have strict conditions such as protection of the life for the mother, severe fetal abnormalities etc and that BOTH parents MUST be in agreement to procede with it.
Then some members like Ben Gilroy are pro life, he openly states this.
It is difficult to have a collective party stance on issues when you dont have a party whip, everyone is free to have there opinion.
Im sure there will be people from the national executive there. The leader and chairman of DDI would obviously get most of the attention on the poster, i know for certain that when meetings were held in carlow and Tipp that members from the waterford committee went along but this was not advertised on the poster.humberklog wrote: »Wicklow branch is having a meeting this week where its speakers are Ben Gilroy and Ray Whitehead- I thought this was interesting as no one from the present committee looks to be represented.
DDI feel very strongly about other parties consisting of ex-FG candidates adopting Recall, they see them simply using it as a selling point to the electerate in order to obtain votes with out any real intention of implementing it.humberklog wrote: »Philip Blond briefly touched on the process of Recall at the Monster meeting of monsters in the RDS at the weekend. DDI jumped all over this from a number of aspects- that somehow the process of Recall is DDI's toy and not the Reform Alliances. That perhaps it would be good for DDI to talk further with Phillip Blond (Philip Blonde is centrist right and anti abortion). Philip Blond is not a member of RA, he was merely a guest speaker.
That one has me stumped aswell. Unless its to do with her reporting on Garda malpractice leading to her sacking, Garda malpractice leading to a PAC enquiry maybe they thought the sacking could be investigated as part of the enquiry? Im not surehumberklog wrote: »DDI appears to be confused about the remit of the PAC. DDI suggested the PAC might look into the sacking of Gemma O Doherty from the Irish Independent. This is a story that I do think should be blasted across papers but what on earth would the PAC be doing investigating this?
The waterford branch is doing well, still small and lack of funding makes it hard to get anything done. But like all branches of DDI, the people within them do this voluntarily, they are all made up of people like me and you, honest tax paying people who are fed up of politics and its corruption with no avenues for the electorate to show there disagreement only with a GE after a number of years and money and time wasted which solves very little.humberklog wrote: »Waterford DDI is having a meeting and that FB page is ran very well. He comes across as a good straightforward guy.
I dont know what the thinking of that is, i dont know drogheda myself but I would imagine this is to do with it being a cost effective venue to hold the meeting.humberklog wrote: »DDI is having a historical AGM meeting on Saturday in Drogheda. Not the easiest of places to get to for a lot of the country. Double bussing for most.humberklog wrote: »These are the bits of stories that I picked up and how I interpreted them in the last week. This is how they read to me. I could be getting the message wrong. But my point is that the message is often confusing to an ordinary Joe like myself.
I can understand how comments can be miss interpreted. None of the memebers are politicians, none of them have any formal training in public speaking or presentation skills etc they are down to earth average joes who dont like seeing the way the country is being steered without any power for the people who fund it to do anything about it.humberklog wrote: »And no, I've no intentions of becoming a comedian.
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I dont understand, was this from the chairmans personal FB and twitter page or an official DDI page? If its from the chairmans personal page then i would take it as it being his opinion and not an official DDI stance. That link you posted is an article written by someone in the US wanting to deport him from the US back to Canada.
I think your term pro abortion is wrong, what some members of DDI including myself believe in is pro choice.
Im sure there will be people from the national executive there.
DDI feel very strongly about other parties consisting of ex-FG candidates adopting Recall, they see them simply using it as a selling point to the electerate in order to obtain votes with out any real intention of implementing it.
Garda malpractice leading to a PAC enquiry maybe they thought the sacking could be investigated as part of the enquiry? Im not sure
I can understand how comments can be miss interpreted.
There's the problem. There are 2 Jeff Rudd profiles. I'm taking the profile which is titled Public Figure to be an official DDI one because it also mentions in that profile he's National chairman of DDI and is running in the Local elections.
In the other profile there is no mention of these things so therefore I'm treating that one as his personal acc.
Yep, my error. I don't like the term Pro Abortion. I should have said pro choice.
It will be interesting to note if any of the executive do make it down to Wicklow. The on line poster just looks a little...eh...factional:).
The PAC is only there to deal with suspected financial irregularities where government coffers are used, or not used, or abused, or not collected. I don't think the chairman of DDI understands this pretty basic concept.0 -
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Likewise with DDI .. they will never introduce the recall system either; just like Sinn Fein pre-budget submissions; they can say all they like but until they are in government they will never have to stand over the promises or policies in action.
At the RA conference there were many things discussed and this was just one of them, most things discussed at conferences never see the light of day and I don't for one minute think that any party close to government or with real ambitions of forming a government would dare to introduce a recall system, that includes DDI.
The big thing that differs here is that DDI is not made up of politicians, they have no bodys back to scratch. It consists of your average tax paying citizen. DDI as a party employ recall, for instance if the members of DDI decided that Ben Gilroy wasnt up to scratch as leader then they can vote to remove him as leader and elect someone else. Its in the DDI constitution, members must adhere to it, they pretty much sign a contract (voiding bens arguments about entering into contracts
) as members.
So even if they do not get recall inacted within the system as a whole it is still very much active within the party, when people see it at work and prove that it provides true consiquences if a representative is abusing there position im sure the electorate wont be long about pushing for it.I don't know if they are promoting the idea; but discussing it. The RA (while I believe will be a Conservative Christian Party) are entertaining a multitude of ideas for democracy etc .. and this was one of them. BTW; I have absolutely no desire to support the RA grouping; espciecally Matthews and Lucinda (both a million miles away from where I would stand).
Looking at the notion of recall on its own ... its a massive part of DDI's manifesto and policy; however; it is not a system that can stand up to any scrutiny, especially in a European context. While on the outside it might be a great notion ... in the three jurisdiction where it is currently available it doesn't tend to be successful or used:
Canada have Recall available since 1995 and have yet have had a single recall attempt, Switzerland (where they have mad direct democracy) have in total had 5 unsuccessful recall attempts (since the 19th Century) and in the US where the whole political system is a basket case have had buckets of them ... a nation where they seem to be constantly in election mode and legislating just to get from one election to another.
Recall for Ireland ... I wouldn't like to see it personally
Maybe the majority of the electorate in those countries are happy with what there representatives are doing. I would imagine its hard to get a majority of 35 million in the likes of canada to agree that a representative is doing a bad job, thats alot of people to piss off but im sure you could get a majority of 5 million looking to kick Hogan out for example. Even if it didnt come to recalling a representative, the very real threat of being given the boot is still there.
In ireland politicians have nothing to worry about until there term is up, by then they have secured a nice pension, made a nice sum of money and will probably get a position on some kind of committee or board thanks to one of there buddies scratching there back.
Infact the only thing a politician is afraid of is the party whip and not the people who elected them, thats not the correct way in a so called representative democracy.
DDI do not have a party whip, representatives must vote whatever way the people that elected them say they should.0 -
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Nobody is a politician until they get elected!!!! If anyone gets Elected from DDI they will be politicians and then make a judgement if they are different to another politician.
They have been groomed(for want of a better word) in a political environment though, Kennys father was a TD for example, he introduced him to politics. Look at the parties that have youth groups, are you going to tell me that the main parties do not have an influence on how members of youth partys think and act?
Why all the exclamation marks??
Was it an effective deterant?All political partys can do this !! Look at the heave against Enda Kenny a couple of years back
I completely understand that tough decisions must be made, i didnt say the public would recall hogan for pushing water rates on us etc i said they could be recalled if they were seen to be abusing there position like that incident with the traveller housing or even his arrogance and demeaning attitude towards people like the disgusting sexual comment made to a 70 year old lady or the relax and feed your children remark, possibly even the double standards of not paying for services he recieved because hes not happy with them but forcing the public here to pay for services that are having there funding obliterated meaning standards will drop even though they are at already low levels.So you reckon that if Ireland had Recall we would be looking at public enemy No. 1 Phil Hogan getting recalled.
Just think about this for a moment; there are times when politicians need to make tough decisions that will piss a large part of the population off - but it needs to be done in the best interest of the state. As you are proposing with recall this would mean that elected representatives would be afraid to make any decision that would annoy people as they would face recall. Ineffect creating politicians who are doing nothing more than looking after the immediate short-term with little or no medium to long term views.
Remember, the crap the country is in was largely due to decisions made by previous governments over the last 10-15 years .. not the current government. Would your proposed Recall system have gained support from the populace who's house were rising in value throughout the bubble .. would they be looking to remove the politician who were fuelling the bubble and creating the disaster.
You can be sure it wouldn't, so Recall is a process that only looks at the very current moment in time and generally does not have any positives for medium to long term planning.
Any decent representative politician will have the countries progression and electorates best interest at heart. This would mean that they use common sense and come to a compromise. For instance child benefit, instead of cutting it for everyone which they have done, cut it for the people earning over a certain amount or reduce payments for second children and stop it for the third child in households earning over 60k etc (just an example/idea, not a DDI stance) or even only pay out childrens allowance for children that are attending school in ireland, wasnt there an issue about people of a foreign nationality claiming for children that were not born or residing here?I am not a fan of the whip system as it stands, however, if you think about it from a distance .. if there were no whip system at all and all 166 members of the Dail were to vote according to independent views ... would we ever be able to formulate policy, proper legislation or would we end up with a load of middle of the road, uncommitted overly compromising national parliament?
Its not that hard to come to a common sense compromise, sure arnt they doing it the whole time in the coalition anyway or is that blaming coalition compromise for binning manifestos that get them elected in the first place?
A number of issues prove that representatives cannot do what they are elected to do because of the party whip.0 -
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