Help needed!!!

Ray Palmer · 17-10-2013 10:41am

Frank Black wrote: »

A landlord, rents a property out to tenants. He doesn't have a lease in place with said tenants and is non-registered.

He fails to notice that his rent is short over a ridiculously prolonged period of time, then out of the blue turns up and demands payment of €7,000 off said tennant while waving some bank statements around.

These are the facts that we know.

Is the LL tax-compliant?
We don't know, but given he is not registered and that he hasn't a lease with his tenants, it's certainly a possibility.

Now most posters see to think that the OP should immediately give in to his LL demands and just hand over €7K to the guy. Personally, I don't think that's a very good learning experience for the LL as he has failed in 3 basic requirements (no lease, ne reg and no early action over unpaid rent). By all means some of the owed rent should be paid back - but handing over €7K to a dodgy LL - nope - the lost rent may serve as a valuable wake-up call for him.

No need for a lease it appears the tenant changing the payment cycle caused the problem with payments. The ONLY thing you know is the tenant says he isn't registered. That doesn't mean it is true mainly because everybody with experience with the PRTB know they don't keep the on-line records up to date.

Why do you feel anybody has the right to teach the LL a lesson?

I notice you didn't answer the questions about reporting a tenant. That is more indicative of a view than not being registered with the PRTB IMHO.

Frank Black · 17-10-2013 10:45am

djimi wrote: »

Its a pretty big "if" in fairness.).

The fact that there is an 'if' is the point surely.

djimi wrote: »

What investigation do you think the OP is going to be able to make, other than waiting it out and seeing what happens? ).

Exactly.

djimi wrote: »

The current advice is that the money is owed. What the OP chooses to do with that is their own business (by the sounds of it they dont intend to pay, but thats their choice I guess). Legally the OP is in arrears that must be paid; whatever else you might think, that is the only relevant fact based on what we know to be true (as opposed to what we might assume to be the case).

Yes, which is why I'm suggesting exploring some alterntive actions.

miss no stars wrote: »

troll is troll?

Yes, offering alternative constructive advice to a poster in the forum is trolling if you don't agree with that advice apparently.

Your post is more of an attempted troll than any of mine really - wouldn't you say?

miss no stars · 17-10-2013 10:47am

Frank Black wrote: »

Yes, offering alternative constructive advice to a poster in the forum is trolling if you don't agree with that advice apparently.

Your post is more of an attempted troll than any of mine really - wouldn't you say?

Seriously?

The OP is more than likely a troll.

djimi · 17-10-2013 10:48am

Frank Black wrote: »

The fact that there is an 'if' is the point surely.

Theres always an "if" when it comes to tax, as none of us know whether or not our landlords are paying tax. Should I stop paying my rent and wait it out to see if they come after me through the PRTB?

ted1 · 17-10-2013 11:18am

If it was me, I would sell the debt to a collection agency and then use the fee charged to write down the profits and hance tax.

Frank Black · 17-10-2013 11:19am

djimi wrote: »

Theres always an "if" when it comes to tax, as none of us know whether or not our landlords are paying tax. Should I stop paying my rent and wait it out to see if they come after me through the PRTB?

Well, if you've been renting prior to 2010 like the OP, you'd probably qualify for tax relief on rent, but would need LL's PPS number to claim. The willingness of the LL to provide you with this info would be a good indication as to his tax-compliance.

Can the OP clarify if the LL provided his PPS to him?

ted1 · 17-10-2013 11:21am

Frank Black wrote: »

Well, if you've been renting prior to 2010 like the OP, you'd probably qualify for tax relief on rent, but would need LL's PPS number to claim. The willingness of the LL to provide you with this info would be a good indication as to his tax-compliance.

Can the OP clarify if the LL provided his PPS to him?

The land lords dealings with Revenue have nothing what so ever to do with the tenant unless the tenant it paying into an accoutn outside of Ireland.

dearg lady · 17-10-2013 11:26am

Frank Black wrote: »

Well, if you've been renting prior to 2010 like the OP, you'd probably qualify for tax relief on rent, but would need LL's PPS number to claim. The willingness of the LL to provide you with this info would be a good indication as to his tax-compliance.

Can the OP clarify if the LL provided his PPS to him?

You don't need LL's PPS to claim, just address.

I think the LL was very foolish in this instance, and I wouldn't be rushing out to get a loan to pay it back in full immediately, but I would come to an arrangement re paying it back. Tbh, I fail to see how either tenant or LL could have missed this for so long!!

Frank Black · 17-10-2013 11:38am

dearg lady wrote: »

You don't need LL's PPS to claim, just address.

You do.

You must provide receipts for rent you have paid if the Revenue Commissioners request them. This rule applies regardless of whether you pay your rent directly to the landlord or to an agent on behalf of the landlord. Each receipt must show the following:

Landlord's name, PPS Number and address
Amount of rent that you have paid
Period of time covered by the receipt.

wirelessdude01 · 17-10-2013 11:39am

dearg lady wrote: »

You don't need LL's PPS to claim, just address.

I think the LL was very foolish in this instance, and I wouldn't be rushing out to get a loan to pay it back in full immediately, but I would come to an arrangement re paying it back. Tbh, I fail to see how either tenant or LL could have missed this for so long!!

Do you honestly think that the tenant 'honestly' missed/forgot to pay? Pull the other one.

dearg lady · 17-10-2013 11:40am

Frank Black wrote: »

You do.

You must provide receipts for rent you have paid if the Revenue Commissioners request them. This rule applies regardless of whether you pay your rent directly to the landlord or to an agent on behalf of the landlord. Each receipt must show the following:
Landlord's name, PPS Number and address

Amount of rent that you have paid

Period of time covered by the receipt.

I asked Revenue before, if PPS wasn't available,they said that was fine.

OK, so according to Revenue website, nothing about receipts, fill in form Rent 1, 'with PPS no of landlord If this number is known or available to you please insert in the box overleaf. If unknown, please leave blank'

Frank Black · 17-10-2013 11:41am

ted1 wrote: »

The land lords dealings with Revenue have nothing what so ever to do with the tenant unless the tenant it paying into an accoutn outside of Ireland.

Right - this has been posted multiple times and I've answered it multiple times.
For one last time
The LL's dealings with Revenue will directly affect the OP as it will most likely form the basis on which the LL will decide to pursue the matter of the outstanding rent or not.

dearg lady · 17-10-2013 11:41am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Do you honestly think that the tenant 'honestly' missed/forgot to pay? Pull the other one.

No, I don't! I thought that was clear...

wirelessdude01 · 17-10-2013 11:45am

dearg lady wrote: »

No, I don't! I thought that was clear...

So therefore the tenant didn't miss anything except the fact that they agreed to pay rent and then didn't. To me the tenant is at fault here as it is on them to pay the agreed amount on the due date each week/month. This wasn't an isolated incident either given that the amount is 7k over 4 years.

Frank Black · 17-10-2013 11:46am

dearg lady wrote: »

I asked Revenue before, if PPS wasn't available,they said that was fine.

Getting tennnts to get the PPS number from LL's to claim tax-relief was revenue's way to try to ensure that LL's were tax-compliant.
I'm surprised that Revenue have told you different and contradicted what is official policy.

If a LL refused to supply you with his PPS No., it was a pretty good indication that he was not tax-compliant. I know a few friends who negotiated rent reductions with their LL's because their LL refused to supply them with their PPS No. when asked.

wirelessdude01 · 17-10-2013 11:49am

I think we are getting totally off topic here with the tax compliant sideshow. At the end of the day the LL was silly yo not notice before that rent wasn't being paid correctly but really the only issue here is how the tenant willingly decided not to pay 7k. That is not just something that slips someones mind.

ted1 · 17-10-2013 11:50am

Frank Black wrote: »

Right - this has been posted multiple times and I've answered it multiple times.
For one last time
The LL's dealings with Revenue will directly affect the OP as it will most likely form the basis on which the LL will decide to pursue the matter of the outstanding rent or not.

I've told you that its quite possible for landlords to not have any tax laibailty. I've properties i've been renting out and I end up with a loss ever year so i don't pay tax.
Revenue have recently audited me and I got the all clear from them.
if LL's don't know how to go about reducing there liabilites a good accountant will.

Also when i was renting revenue where quite happy to take the LL's address to issue tax credits.

as regards your friends getting diso***** for not getting the PPS. the landlord is very stupid here. As you can claim back the past 4 years. all they have to do is move out after 4 years, then put in a claim and they'll get the credit going back the duration for 4 years. or not even move out, but face a rental increase

dearg lady · 17-10-2013 11:50am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So therefore the tenant didn't miss anything except the fact that they agreed to pay rent and then didn't. To me the tenant is at fault here as it is on them to pay the agreed amount on the due date each week/month. This wasn't an isolated incident either given that the amount is 7k over 4 years.

Yes, thank you for reiterating what I already know!

Frank Black wrote: »

Getting tennnts to get the PPS number from LL's to claim tax-relief was revenue's way to try to ensure that LL's were tax-compliant.
I'm surprised that Revenue have told you different and contradicted what is official policy.

If a LL refused to supply you with his PPS No., it was a pretty good indication that he was not tax-compliant. I know a few friends who negotiated rent reductions with their LL's because their LL refused to supply them with their PPS No. when asked.

updated my post, with revenue link, they do not require PPS

No Pants · 17-10-2013 1:18pm

Frank Black wrote: »

Let's say for a moment he is not tax compliant.
If the property rented out at €1K a month, then over 4 years, allowing for the €7K shortfall and assuming that LL was paying tax at the marginal rate, he would have defrauded the revenue by nearly €17K.
Is this more scummy?
Should the OP not investigate this prior to handing over his €7K?

It doesn't work that way for me. Scummy behaviour is scummy behaviour and it's possible for both of them.

The behaviour of one does not negate the other.

D3PO · 17-10-2013 1:35pm

OP do the right thing. Agree a payment plan with the LL and get it sorted. Or then again maybe you would prefer the LL to sell the debt to the Viper debt collection agency ....

ted1 · 17-10-2013 1:37pm

D3PO wrote: »

OP do the right thing. Agree a payment plan with the LL and get it sorted. Or then again maybe you would prefer the LL to sell the debt to the Viper debt collection agency ....

Thats exactly who i had in mind

Tokyo · 17-10-2013 1:37pm

NEver mind what the landlord is doing - I still want to hear the story of how exactly the OP "accidentally forgot" to pay €7,000 worth of bills????!!!

djimi · 17-10-2013 1:44pm

D3PO wrote: »

Or then again maybe you would prefer the LL to sell the debt to the Viper debt collection agency ....

How does that work in reality? Given the process that would need to be adhered to (PRTB etc) I presume you cant just pass on the debt and wash your hands of it?

djimi · 17-10-2013 1:45pm

mike_ie wrote: »

NEver mind what the landlord is doing - I still want to hear the story of how exactly the OP "accidentally forgot" to pay €7,000 worth of bills????!!!

I think its pretty clear that for "accidentally forgot" read "didnt bother and then continued to not bother when we realised we were getting away with it"!

Tokyo · 17-10-2013 1:48pm

djimi wrote: »

I think its pretty clear that for "accidentally forgot" read "didnt bother and then continued to not bother when we realised we were getting away with it"!

Yeah, I figured that much of course, I'd just like to hear the OP's hardship story regarding this

I'm guessing he won't be back to post though - too busy packing....

Ray Palmer · 17-10-2013 1:53pm

ted1 wrote: »

I've told you that its quite possible for landlords to not have any tax laibailty. I've properties i've been renting out and I end up with a loss ever year so i don't pay tax.
Revenue have recently audited me and I got the all clear from them.

I for the life of me find that very hard to believe. Been renting out for many years and making a loss doesn't mean you have no tax liabilities. You would need to be charging very very little or spending massive money on the property.

It just doesn't sound possible to me can you give rough figures on how you are doing this?

Tokyo · 17-10-2013 1:55pm

Frank Black wrote: »

I'd be utterly ashamed embarrassed if I was renting out a place and didn't realise that I was owed €7K in rent over a 4 year period.

I can actually see how this might happen. Not everyone who bought an investment property is a savvy landlord, staying on top of their tenants to make sure they follow the contract to the letter, pay their bills on time, make sure they aren't pulling a fast one, etc. My own father is like this, all income pretty goes into the one account, be it his paycheck, money from the farm, money from a property that they rent out, etc etc, and he's the kind of man that as long as there's money in the count to cover the bills, and there's no obvious issues with tenants, then he's happy. And if there was an illness in the family or something bigger to be taken care of, the last thing he'd worry about would be to check the bank to make sure the rent came in.

Too trusting? Definitely. A recipe for disaster? Probably. And I've pointed out all of these things, and try to manage the money for him. But the fact is there are landlords out there like that - it doesn't necessarily mean that they are up to no good.

D3PO · 17-10-2013 4:01pm

djimi wrote: »

How does that work in reality? Given the process that would need to be adhered to (PRTB etc) I presume you cant just pass on the debt and wash your hands of it?

I don't exactly know to be honest, but as you would be paid to sell them the debt you wouldn't need to worry about the technicalities of it after that.

djimi · 17-10-2013 4:42pm

D3PO wrote: »

I don't exactly know to be honest, but as you would be paid to sell them the debt you wouldn't need to worry about the technicalities of it after that.

Thats what I mean though; can you sell them the debt in this case? Could they as a third party then pursue the tenant through the PRTB?

murphaph · 17-10-2013 5:45pm

Frank Black wrote: »

A landlord, rents a property out to tenants. He doesn't have a lease in place with said tenants and is non-registered.

These are the facts that we know.

There is a tenancy in place. The terms of the original lease remain valid but the op also has part 4 tenancy rights.

The prtb website is not accurate. The op can't really know if the tenancy is registered.

Help needed!!!

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