Help needed!!!

D3PO

djimi wrote: »

Thats what I mean though; can you sell them the debt in this case? Could they as a third party then pursue the tenant through the PRTB?

I doubt it but there are debt collectors out there who tbh wouldn't be too concerned with the legal way of doing things iykwim. I know if I were the op I wouldn't want to get mixed up with these companies tbh.

the_syco

info13 wrote: »

he showed us bank details and the dates of payments missing not sure what to do for sure cant afford to pay him back

Sounds like the landlord has gotten an accountant. I'm assuming the landlord is allowed to withhold the entire deposit to cover such unpaid bills, and come after the OP for anything else the OP owes?

ghogie91

djimi wrote: »

The first thing Id be looking for is a detailed calculation and breakdown as to how he reached that figure. The next thing Id be looking for is for him to backup his figures.

As djimi said I would look for a detailed breakdown of where each payment was missed, dates and exact amounts. I would also be gathering my own personal records of payments too (statements or receipts or whatever way you do it)

But this landlord is entitled to look for his money, €7000 is quite a large sum, Im sure if there has been no trouble with the property over the past couple of years then some argeement can be reached for incompetency/lack of communication on both sides (maybe 60 to 75% of total and proven money to be owed).

info13

sorry all for the late reply and no to all the answers we have not "started packing" or "done a runner!!"

we made a offer to the landlord to pay the arrears off within 3years most we can afford right now he will not accept and wants more so what are our options now?

contact prtb ourselfs?? where he does not have us registered??

move out and pay off what we can to him by month??

we want to pay the money back but coming up short of 160euro a month that he wants more its not possible to come up with more we have pulled the plug on everything where there is chance to cut bills and change lifestyle any ideas appreciated.....

fasttalkerchat

I would offer to sign a new contract for a fixed monthly amount. He can add €50 to the rent until he gets paid back. The new contract gives a fresh start and for him its good because he can kick you out if you stop paying again.

wirelessdude01

Look at it from the landlords perspective. Would you accept payment over 3years from someone who could just walk away with a moments notice and leave them without payment. It isn't like a bank loan where there is some form of protection for the bank. This landlord could be left with damn all money from the 7k which YOU owe him. Option is to get a bank load for the amount and pay it off in full and then you owe it to the bank. Might actually teach you a good life lesson to learn to manage your finances every month and actually pay what you owe.

djimi

€160 a month sounds generous to be honest given the amount owed (at that rate you are looking at nearly four years before its repaid; very generous terms for a personal loan).

wirelessdude01

djimi wrote: »

€160 a month sounds generous to be honest given the amount owed (at that rate you are looking at nearly four years before its repaid; very generous terms for a personal loan).

And probably no interest.

info13

djimi wrote: »

€160 a month sounds generous to be honest given the amount owed (at that rate you are looking at nearly four years before its repaid; very generous terms for a personal loan).

FYI we are offering 250 extra a month and he wants 160 more so 250 is not bad

djimi

info13 wrote: »

FYI we are offering 250 extra a month and he wants 160 more so 250 is not bad

Well if you are offering €250 a month and thats all that you can afford then the landlord would be pretty dumb not to accept. Its still far from ideal from their point of view, but ultimately you can only pay back what you can afford, and that isnt going to change even if they drag you through the PRTB and get a judgement against you. Perhaps it might be worth reminding them of that, and also remind them that it will take probably a year to get said judgement, in which time they could have a third of the debt cleared.

The other alternative, as others have said, is to take out a loan to clear the debt.

Raminahobbin

A loan is probably going to be your best best here OP. He would be pretty silly to refuse €250 per month, but he is under no obligation to do so and perfectly within his rights to press for the full sum.

Take out a loan and be done with it rather than having him breathing down your neck for the next ages.

djimi

Raminahobbin wrote: »

A loan is probably going to be your best best here OP. He would be pretty silly to refuse €250 per month, but he is under no obligation to do so and perfectly within his rights to press for the full sum.

Take out a loan and be done with it rather than having him breathing down your neck for the next ages.

The point is though that he can press for the full sum all he wants, but if the OP has no means of coming up with it in a lump sum then it isnt going to happen. Im not sure that even the PRTB would insist that the OP take out a loan to cover the arrears; if the sum is so large that it cannot be paid in its entirety then they would want a payment plan put in place, no?

Tokyo

Raminahobbin wrote: »

A loan is probably going to be your best best here OP. He would be pretty silly to refuse €250 per month, but he is under no obligation to do so and perfectly within his rights to press for the full sum.

Take out a loan and be done with it rather than having him breathing down your neck for the next ages.

I tend to agree, and to be honest, I don't blame the guy for turning down €250 per month. Look at it from the other perspective - landlord has probably gotten in an accountant to take care of his finances, accountant has turned around and said "these lads haven't been paying you for months now and owe you €7,000!!!" I'd be wanting my money now, no instalments, no "maybe we can pay off a percentage of it". I'd want it, now.

OP, it's not clear from your posts, but I get the impression that the €7000 debt is not yours alone, but is divvied up between you and two or three other housemates? If that's the case, then your own personal stake in this is €1750 to €2300, which is a far more manageable sum. Have you considered just getting a loan to cover your share, pay the man, and move on?? I'd much prefer to owe the bank than to owe a man I've already owed money to for over four years now...

djimi

mike_ie wrote: »

I tend to agree, and to be honest, I don't blame the guy for turning down €250 per month. Look at it from the other perspective - landlord has probably gotten in an accountant to take care of his finances, accountant has turned around and said "these lads haven't been paying you for months now and owe you €7,000!!!" I'd be wanting my money now, no instalments, no "maybe we can pay off a percentage of it". I'd want it, now.

And again I question, what can the landlord do to get the money all upfront now? If the OP hasnt got it then they can shout as loud as they want, but ultimately the only course of action they have is to go through the PRTB, and I would question whether the PRTB would insist on payment in full up front for that amount, especially if the OP can show that they are not in a position to pay the full amount.

Tokyo

djimi wrote: »

And again I question, what can the landlord do to get the money all upfront now? If the OP hasnt got it then they can shout as loud as they want, but ultimately the only course of action they have is to go through the PRTB, and I would question whether the PRTB would insist on payment in full up front for that amount, especially if the OP can show that they are not in a position to pay the full amount.

It's yet to be established that the OP owes the full €7000 himself, or whether he owes just a percentage of it. I'd expect that to be a factor in whether he should pay upfront (or at least within x number of weeks). I also wonder where the €7000 that should have gone towards the landlord went? If the OP spent it on something like the latest and greatest flat screen TV, then I'd be hoping to see it up on eBay in the next few weeks.

The PRTB isn't the last port of call for the landlord though, is it? Could he not press criminal charges for what is essentially theft?

djimi

mike_ie wrote: »

It's yet to be established that the OP owes the full €7000 himself, or whether he owes just a percentage of it. I'd expect that to be a factor in whether he should pay upfront (or at least within x number of weeks).

Assuming the OP had a joint lease with the other housemates then they are all jointly and severely responsible for the money owed.

mike_ie wrote: »

I also wonder where the €7000 that should have gone towards the landlord went? If the OP spent it on something like the latest and greatest flat screen TV, then I'd be hoping to see it up on eBay in the next few weeks.

This would not be the case.

mike_ie wrote: »

The PRTB isn't the last port of call for the landlord though, is it? Could he not press criminal charges for what is essentially theft?

I dont think so. The landlord must go through the PRTB first to ge a judgement against the OP for the money owed, which can then be pursued through the courts if the OP is not forthcoming with payment.

Id be surprised if criminal charges can be pressed beyond that. There is a system in place to handle this situation; the landlord wont be able to act outside of this system.

Raminahobbin

djimi wrote: »

The point is though that he can press for the full sum all he wants, but if the OP has no means of coming up with it in a lump sum then it isnt going to happen. Im not sure that even the PRTB would insist that the OP take out a loan to cover the arrears; if the sum is so large that it cannot be paid in its entirety then they would want a payment plan put in place, no?

The landlord has no way to know the OPs personal financial situation, perhaps he thinks that by pressing the OP enough pressure would amount that the OP would be forced to borrow off someone to pay. Maybe he is hoping the OP will have a parent or sibling in the background that will step up to the mark and bail them out.

To find this out he needs to apply enough pressure to make the OP swallow their pride and turn to ask for help from someone.

He probably will accept the €250 once he feels the OP is genuinely out of options, but until then he's going to turn up the heat. It's probably how I'd handle the situation if I was a landlord.

djimi

Raminahobbin wrote: »

The landlord has no way to know the OPs personal financial situation, perhaps he thinks that by pressing the OP enough pressure would amount that the OP would be forced to borrow off someone to pay. Maybe he is hoping the OP will have a parent or sibling in the background that will step up to the mark and bail them out.

To find this out he needs to apply enough pressure to make the OP swallow their pride and turn to ask for help from someone.

He probably will accept the €250 once he feels the OP is genuinely out of options, but until then he's going to turn up the heat. It's probably how I'd handle the situation if I was a landlord.

He can turn up the heat all he wants; chances are it will just result in the OP turning around and telling him to **** off and pursue them through the PRTB. I know I would if I made a reasonable offer to clear arrears and the landlord started getting making unrealistic demands.

If the landlord is smart then they will look at the amount in question and realise that getting something each month is better than getting stupid about it and ultimately getting nothing.

info13

The money is owed by myself and wife.

The money we will pay back a extra 250 is all we can afford so there's no other option for us.

He is not registered with prtb so can we make a case with them ourself instead??

Victor

ted1 wrote: »

Do you like broken legs?

No need for comments like this.

Moderator

djimi

info13 wrote: »

He is not registered with prtb so can we make a case with them ourself instead??

Why would you want to?

Him not being registered is largely irrelevent for both parties btw; if he wishes to avail of their services then chances are all he will be asked to pay is the arrears that he owes.

Sleepy

info13 wrote: »

The money we will pay back a extra 250 is all we can afford so there's no other option for us.

From the loan calculator on Bank of Ireland, you'd have to pay back € 235.72 per month on a fixed interest 3 year loan for the €7,000 you owe.

https://personalbanking.bankofireland.com/borrow/loans/quick-quote-calculator/

Go speak to your Bank Manager.

info13

Sleepy wrote: »

From the loan calculator on Bank of Ireland, you'd have to pay back € 235.72 per month on a fixed interest 3 year loan for the €7,000 you owe.

https://personalbanking.bankofireland.com/borrow/loans/quick-quote-calculator/

Go speak to your Bank Manager.

Bank loan not a option now for that amount tried that can't afford it they say.... Plus have another small loan

Tokyo

djimi wrote: »

He can turn up the heat all he wants; chances are it will just result in the OP turning around and telling him to **** off and pursue them through the PRTB. I know I would if I made a reasonable offer to clear arrears and the landlord started getting making unrealistic demands.

Overall, I agree I guess, but there's a big difference between €7,000, and "arrears". Arrears is being a month behind on the rent, or missing an ESB payment, €7,000 on the other hand over the course of a few years, based on what the OP has said so far is at best chancing your arm to the nth degree, and at worst, downright theft. Maybe not to the letter of the law, but to any decent landlord or tenant, it is, so I can understand why the landlord might be having a WTF moment right now and thinking that three years to pay him back what should have been paid three years ago is a bit rich.

OP, I think it's fair to ask how exactly does one end up accidentally not paying over €7,000 in rent and associated fees??

If the landlord is smart then they will look at the amount in question and realise that getting something each month is better than getting stupid about it and ultimately getting nothing.

DOn't think that's the landlord being smart - that's the landlord having to suck it up or get nothing at all.

djimi, I agree with what you're saying in general, but unless the OP has something else to add to the scenario, the whole thing seems as fishy as all hell, and I my sympathies lie with the unfortunate landlord that found himself in this situation, not the tenant.

Gasherbraun

Assuming the landlord did take a case to the PRTB the board will only enforce adjudicators orders where they think there is a realistic chance of reclaiming the monies owed; they are effectively selective in what cases they enforce due to budgetary restrictions.

We enforced a PRTB order (tenant ordered to pay arrears and vacate by x date) last year but used a solicitor rather than get the PRTB to enforce. We knew the tenant could not pay the arrears and the aim was to remove them as quickly as possible and the solicitor had the PRTB order before the court within six weeks. It was enforced although the judge extended the period granted to vacate.

Due to the level of debt stated by the OP and the fact that they have proposed a payment plan voluntarily it is highly unlikely that the board will issue a determination order instructing the tenants to pay immediately but would just issue an order that confirms the tenants proposal i.e scheduled debt reduction. There is an advantage to the landlord in this however, since if the tenants default on the payment plan the order can be enforced. As djimi states the success of any subsequent enforcement fully depends on whether there are actually funds available to pay.

djimi

mike_ie wrote: »

Overall, I agree I guess, but there's a big difference between €7,000, and "arrears". Arrears is being a month behind on the rent, or missing an ESB payment, €7,000 on the other hand over the course of a few years, based on what the OP has said so far is at best chancing your arm to the nth degree, and at worst, downright theft. Maybe not to the letter of the law, but to any decent landlord or tenant, it is, so I can understand why the landlord might be having a WTF moment right now and thinking that three years to pay him back what should have been paid three years ago is a bit rich.

OP, I think it's fair to ask how exactly does one end up accidentally not paying over €7,000 in rent and associated fees??

The problem for the landlord is that ultimately the amount is irrelevant; they still need to follow the same legal process.

One could also argue that the landlord can pin part of the blame on themselves; its one thing to miss a payment or two here or there, but to not notice €7000 missing (which equates to 35 missed payments at €200 a week) is just beyond belief.

Im not entirely blaming the landlord, by the way, but it is fair to point out that if they had their finger on the pulse of their business then they wouldnt be looking at a three year payment plan to sort the arrears that they are now owed.

mike_ie wrote: »

DOn't think that's the landlord being smart - that's the landlord having to suck it up or get nothing at all.

Basically, yes. As the old saying goes its better to get 60% of something than 100% of nothing. Right now there is an offer on the table to clear the arrears by €3000 grand a year. Id say that is the best offer that the landlord is going to get under the circumstances.

mike_ie wrote: »

djimi, I agree with what you're saying in general, but unless the OP has something else to add to the scenario, the whole thing seems as fishy as all hell, and I my sympathies lie with the unfortunate landlord that found himself in this situation, not the tenant.

I agree with this to a point, but as I said above its a little hard to feel entirely sympathetic towards someone who neglected their business to the point where a tenant ended up owing them so much money. Unless there was something going on in their personal lives that we have not been made aware of, this should have been sorted long before the arrears even reached a four figure sum, let alone to the level that they did reach.

Again, Im not trying to take blame from the OP.

wirelessdude01

Info13, can you actually clarify for us good folks how you managed to run up such arrears over 4 years? Baffles me how you claim you didn't realise you had.

Tokyo

djimi wrote: »

The problem for the landlord is that ultimately the amount is irrelevant; they still need to follow the same legal process.

One could also argue that the landlord can pin part of the blame on themselves; its one thing to miss a payment or two here or there, but to not notice €7000 missing (which equates to 35 missed payments at €200 a week) is just beyond belief.

I think that we are both in agreement overall I'm baffled myself how a man didn't notice something was wrong until he was €7,000 down, but that's another story. I'd like to have been a fly on the wall when the accountant went over his records and let him know

Sleepy

info13 wrote: »

Bank loan not a option now for that amount tried that can't afford it they say.... Plus have another small loan

Can you sell the car and buy something cheaper?

Otherwise, tbh, you're bankrupt. If the bank judge such lending to be unaffordable so would a court.

info13

long story how will try post later today...

so basically if he does not accept the offer what to do then??