Sam Bennett - no same day spoilers

corelokttikka

eeeee wrote: »

Just to give some perspective on what Rachel Blackmore has done, riding a racehorse (riding work) is one of the most physically demanding, and highly skilled things you can do in sport. People who ride sport horses for a living can struggle to ride work. Being a jockey (racing) is steps above that again.

What Rachel Blackmore has done is absolutely astounding. I have spelt it out in this thread before, but winning the national (a big handicap, not an especially high quality race on the equine talent side) is absolutely huge, massive.
No female jockey in history has ever come close to what she is doing this season, not even close. And she's doing in over jumps, not the flat, which is even more incredible again. And to win the national, that's a stratospheric achievement.

I am a cycling fan, I race bikes, etc. etc. and as well and all as Sam is doing it doesn't even come close to what Rachel has done, not even close. A comparison would be winning Flanders, Roubaix, The Tour de France, and the Vuelta in one season, whilst also being the (current) second most winning cyclist this year, oh and being a woman! Most of the time the only woman in the race! (the gender difference is not as pronounced in racing as it is in cycling obvs, but the fact that she's the only woman in these fields is evidence of what she's up against)

What she has done has never been done before in the history of sport, it really can't be overstated. She has grafted for years to get to where she is, and no woman has ever been given the top job at the most successful stable (and be put up by the owners). The amount old fashioned sexist beliefs in the sport she has had to overcome on the way there is enormous. I haven't seen anything like it before. It's spectacular.

You don’t see jockeys puke up or ride to a complete stand still
Jockeys sit on top of the athletes, the horse should get the prize. There’s no comparison.

Tell me how

corelokttikka wrote: »

You don’t see jockeys puke up or ride to a complete stand still
Jockeys sit on top of the athletes, the horse should get the prize. There’s no comparison.

Well look, by the same token, team structures in cycling on sprint stages and on one certain one day races mean that the sprinter (as Sam is) can largely conserve energy (comparatively speaking) until the final couple hundred meters of the race.

Rachel will win this year because she has done things which few riders male or female have ever done, in dominating Cheltenham, and zero females have done before her in winning Aintree. Unless there was a stand out performer in another sport, her being the first woman to win Aintree would probably get her over the line in SPOTY but coming on the back of her week in cheltenham, its unlikely to be any way close this year.

harringtonp

corelokttikka wrote: »

You don’t see jockeys puke up or ride to a complete stand still
Jockeys sit on top of the athletes, the horse should get the prize. There’s no comparison.

Having never been on a horse I suspect there is more to it. News paper articles suggest strength and endurance is important, I wonder what are the exact physical attributes necessary at that level ?

Anyone can drive a car, you can be completely.out of shape and drive. Formula 1 racing is driving too but almost everyone knows the top drivers are and have to be some of the fittest people around. Having never driven an F1 car I don't understand here either why such high levels of fitness are necessary. But I have seen enough to know that they just are.

Weepsie

corelokttikka wrote: »

You don’t see jockeys puke up or ride to a complete stand still
Jockeys sit on top of the athletes, the horse should get the prize. There’s no comparison.

It's one of the most dangerous and injury laden sports you can participate in. Almost anyone can ride a bike. Obviously takes amazingly great skills and athleticism to do it at that level, but not many people would be able to put themselves through what jockeys do. It's absolutely insane.

CramCycle

corelokttikka wrote: »

You don’t see jockeys puke up or ride to a complete stand still
Jockeys sit on top of the athletes, the horse should get the prize. There’s no comparison.

To be fair, after not getting nominated for a breakaway (and the win) in a club league race in Newbridge in 2019, I came to accept that it doesn't matter how good you are if no one knows who you are.

eeeee

corelokttikka wrote: »

You don’t see jockeys puke up or ride to a complete stand still
Jockeys sit on top of the athletes, the horse should get the prize. There’s no comparison.

You can, and I have.
The strength, skill, endurance, athleticism and once again, skill needed to be a jockey is incredible.

I've won national medals on the bike, and I grew up riding horses.
The skill levels needed to ride a horse far, far, far outweigh those needed to ride a bike in my experience.
Bikes aren't a quarter of a tonne of sentient muscle with added brain.

I'm not saying racing is harder than cycling, they're very different athletes. Certainly skill wise jockeys have the edge imo.

Sam has achieved enormous things, but it pales in comparison to what Rachel's done for national hunt racing, inside and outside the sport.

There was a documentary a few years ago now on maybe RTE? about Ruby or one of the the other lads and remember thinking I'd hate to have to live like that. They would have a lot in common with a pro cyclist in terms of the diet, the weight, cutting like a boxer would if necessary.

Thinking about it now any horse I encounter with a rider or anyone I know who rides a horse is a woman. Ladies in work, cousins kids on a weekend, equestrian center near where I used to live. All women, so why so few women jockeys ?

Has to be boys club thing surely? Generalising here I know people come in all shapes and sizes but you'd imagine it's far easier to find a woman of jockey physique than it is a man

eeeee

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a documentary a few years ago now on maybe RTE? about Ruby or one of the the other lads and remember thinking I'd hate to have to live like that. They would have a lot in common with a pro cyclist in terms of the diet, the weight, cutting like a boxer would if necessary.

Thinking about it now any horse I encounter with a rider or anyone I know who rides a horse is a woman. Ladies in work, cousins kids on a weekend, equestrian center near where I used to live. All women, so why so few women jockeys ?

Has to be boys club thing surely? Generalising here I know people come in all shapes and sizes but you'd imagine it's far easier to find a woman of jockey physique than it is a man

In the sport horse world there would be more men, in the racing world it's the opposite in terms of jockeys (but not in terms of staff or work riders). Women weren't thought to be strong enough to ride a finish as well as a man, this has been challenged by notable female jockeys - Nina Carberry, Katie Walsh for example, both stayed as amateurs (of course there have been others) - but Rachel is the first to ride as a pro and win as much as a man and properly topple that belief. It's stronger in jump racing than flat racing (stupid belief). She has smashed that by a huge, huge distance, finally proving what we already know, that female jockeys can be as successful, and win as much as men. This is the first time in history this has definitively happened.*


*There have been plenty of female jockeys that have disproved this, but this is the first time a woman has turned pro, and her ability and talent been trusted enough to be top jock at one of the most successful trainers of the moment (and all the owners of said horses). She's broken down so many barriers, on the shoulders of the powerful women who came before, but this is the first time this barrier has been so definitively broken.
She's not just won big races, she's also running second in the jockeys' championship, 10 wins behind Paul Townend. This has never happened before.

ETA: that turned into a rant, apologies! Yes there are similarities between jockeys and cyclists in terms of weight, in average jockey's race at 70% dehydration and several stone below their natural weights. It's tough going.

breezy1985

eeeee wrote: »

You can, and I have.
The strength, skill, endurance, athleticism and once again, skill needed to be a jockey is incredible.

I've won national medals on the bike, and I grew up riding horses.
The skill levels needed to ride a horse far, far, far outweigh those needed to ride a bike in my experience.
Bikes aren't a quarter of a tonne of sentient muscle with added brain.

I'm not saying racing is harder than cycling, they're very different athletes. Certainly skill wise jockeys have the edge imo.

Sam has achieved enormous things, but it pales in comparison to what Rachel's done for national hunt racing, inside and outside the sport.

I understand the gender aspect to it and that is amazing but nothing will ever convince me that sitting on a horse is anywhere near as demanding as 21 days on a self propelled bike over the French mountains and in terms of skill getting back down them

It's sports personality though not hardest worker so I expect her to get it and have no issue with that.

eeeee

breezy1985 wrote: »

I understand the gender aspect to it and that is amazing but nothing will ever convince me that sitting on a horse is anywhere near as demanding as 21 days on a self propelled bike over the French mountains and in terms of skill getting back down them

It's sports personality though not hardest worker so I expect her to get it and have no issue with that.

Having done a lot of bike racing, and a lot of horse riding, I can easily say it's far harder and requires a LOT more skill to ride a horse than a bike

If you haven't any experience of a sport, it's hard to imagine how hard it is, or how it can be harder than the sport you're familiar with.
I imagine that's why the stars of more popular sports win it more. I personally haven't a clue about any ball based sports, so I'm regularly disappointed by it :pac:
Anyone at the top of their game in any sport is a deserving winner really, I guess it comes down to a popularity/familiarity contest in the end.

CramCycle

breezy1985 wrote: »

I understand the gender aspect to it and that is amazing but nothing will ever convince me that sitting on a horse is anywhere near as demanding as 21 days on a self propelled bike over the French mountains and in terms of skill getting back down them

It's sports personality though not hardest worker so I expect her to get it and have no issue with that.

But what is the standard? Is a 100m sprinter always going to be less of a sportsperson than a marathon runner, are lads who do Transcontinental's better athletes than someone winning an Olympic Gold in a track sprint. What is more important, time in pain? Physical exertion? Skill level?
I suppose in reality, athletically, the two are probably actually on par with each other, like it or not. Can you imagine asking Sam to ride the same horse and get even close to the same result? Does anyone here think he would have finished anywhere but last if he got on Rachels horse? Or Rachel to ride a bike? Does anyone here think she could compete off the bat at anything above club league level. The more I say it out loud, she has slightly more of a chance than Sam of competing in the other discipline with no training.
The truth is, I have ridden horses, but I will always relate more to Sam because when I look at the screen despite being 25% of the speed, I know that feeling of leaving it all on the floor, regardless of the level. this is no different than an amateur jockey, they will relate to Rachel because they know what it takes just to keep going. In that regard, they are equivalent, no matter what anyone here says.
In regards SPOTY, she wins hands down (so far), but its has nowt to do with being an athlete. Her true fans know that she is beyond compare, as Sam's here know the same. This bickering over who has it worse (athletically, not talking about barriers here) is nonsense as there will simply never be a way to compare. I see riders in club leagues and the ICVA who train the equivalent amount if not harder, that is simply not the measure of the competition though. They will never compare to Rachel or Sam in regards riding a bike or a horse, but in their sport, at their level, they have given more than most of us ever would or could, personally they are as entitled to athlete of the year as Rachel or Sam but SPOTY is different. It is as much a popularity contest as a recognition of athletic effort.

Dodge

CramCycle wrote: »

It is as much a popularity contest as a recognition of athletic effort.

It is only a popularity contest.

Some people have won because they were the only Irish sports person to do anything of note. In some years the winners didn’t even do that much

Team sports participants are vastly over represented and minor sports (in Irish media terms) are under represented

And then the public votes. We all know they can’t be relied upon

deise08

Although it's not as glossy as RTÉ SPOTY,
We did vote for Sam in the Independent's Sports award.

happytramp

eeeee wrote: »

You can, and I have.
The strength, skill, endurance, athleticism and once again, skill needed to be a jockey is incredible.

I've won national medals on the bike, and I grew up riding horses.
The skill levels needed to ride a horse far, far, far outweigh those needed to ride a bike in my experience.
Bikes aren't a quarter of a tonne of sentient muscle with added brain.

I'm not saying racing is harder than cycling, they're very different athletes. Certainly skill wise jockeys have the edge imo.

Sam has achieved enormous things, but it pales in comparison to what Rachel's done for national hunt racing, inside and outside the sport.

Well, as someone who has both won the grand national and placed very high up on he tour de france I can assure you that it is far, far, far more difficult to jump a seven foot fence on a bike than it is on a horse.

Although descending mount ventoux on a horse wasn't much fun either.

swarlb

This will anger a lot on here, but here goes anyway. I like Sam Bennet, I love seeing him win, specially last year with his green jersey win, Really great to to see such a win by an Irish cyclist after so many years.
I'd be a similar age to Kelly, I raced bikes in the 70's, went to plenty of races, tried to 'follow' a TDF stage once and nearly keeled over with the pain. (remember back then the lowest gear on a bike was something like 42/44 x 21/23. I only wish I had a 35x33 like I've seen on some bikes today.
That being said, what sometime irks me about Bennet is is seeming inability to win a race without a leadout. I'm certain he has won plenty, but from what I've seen with Quick Step, he needs someone.
Now you'll probably say that most sprinters used lead outs, but plenty do not, they fight for wheels, looks for the best option and pounce.
He really needs to win a Classic, I had hoped he was going to win Ghent Wevelgem, as it was one of the few occasions I'd seen him in a break, on his own. I have no doubt if he's been there at the finish he would have won.
My youngest daughter is a horsewoman, barely in her teens she is quite accomplished. I for one have no clue how she can handle such a large animal, never mind stay on it while it jumps a metre wide (and just as high) fence. Trust me, getting thrown off one of these animals is not a pretty sight.
Stop comparing Rachael to Bennet, they are both competing in equally difficult sports, neither is 'better' than the other.
I had a friend of my sons over recently, rabbiting on about this very topic. So I gave him my 40 year old bike, complete with 19mm tyres, 53x44 and 13/19 block. I'm not kidding, but it was funny watching him trying to cycle it up a local hill.... never mind that he was terrified of having his feet strapped tightly to the pedals.
Looking forward to this years Tour, where I hope Bennet can increase his stage win tally, and hopefully defend his jersey.

breezy1985

swarlb wrote: »

This will anger a lot on here, but here goes anyway. I like Sam Bennet, I love seeing him win, specially last year with his green jersey win, Really great to to see such a win by an Irish cyclist after so many years.
I'd be a similar age to Kelly, I raced bikes in the 70's, went to plenty of races, tried to 'follow' a TDF stage once and nearly keeled over with the pain. (remember back then the lowest gear on a bike was something like 42/44 x 21/23. I only wish I had a 35x33 like I've seen on some bikes today.
That being said, what sometime irks me about Bennet is is seeming inability to win a race without a leadout. I'm certain he has won plenty, but from what I've seen with Quick Step, he needs someone.
Now you'll probably say that most sprinters used lead outs, but plenty do not, they fight for wheels, looks for the best option and pounce.
He really needs to win a Classic, I had hoped he was going to win Ghent Wevelgem, as it was one of the few occasions I'd seen him in a break, on his own. I have no doubt if he's been there at the finish he would have won.
My youngest daughter is a horsewoman, barely in her teens she is quite accomplished. I for one have no clue how she can handle such a large animal, never mind stay on it while it jumps a metre wide (and just as high) fence. Trust me, getting thrown off one of these animals is not a pretty sight.
Stop comparing Rachael to Bennet, they are both competing in equally difficult sports, neither is 'better' than the other.
I had a friend of my sons over recently, rabbiting on about this very topic. So I gave him my 40 year old bike, complete with 19mm tyres, 53x44 and 13/19 block. I'm not kidding, but it was funny watching him trying to cycle it up a local hill.... never mind that he was terrified of having his feet strapped tightly to the pedals.
Looking forward to this years Tour, where I hope Bennet can increase his stage win tally, and hopefully defend his jersey.

You clearly never watched him race for Bora.
The rest of this is just "back in my day" old man shouting at cloud nonsense.

magicbastarder

happytramp wrote: »

Although descending mount ventoux on a horse wasn't much fun either.

so it was *you* who took the horse to france?

(sorry, young people, that one's not for you)

De Bhál

swarlb wrote: »

That being said, what sometime irks me about Bennet is is seeming inability to win a race without a leadout. I'm certain he has won plenty, but from what I've seen with Quick Step, he needs someone.
Now you'll probably say that most sprinters used lead outs, but plenty do not, they fight for wheels, looks for the best option and pounce.
He really needs to win a Classic, I had hoped he was going to win Ghent Wevelgem, as it was one of the few occasions I'd seen him in a break, on his own. I have no doubt if he's been there at the finish he would have won.

Like most sprinters I've seen, Bennett has a fair few wins where he's had to do it himself after the lead out doesn't make it to the last km.

This one linked below at Imola in the Giro stands out for me as a great sprint by him without a leadout.
Another one at Vuelta a Burgos last year where he did a solo uphill attack from a kilometre out - can't find footage of that.

https://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/giro-d-italia/2018/giro-d-italia-2018-sam-bennett-coasts-to-win-at-imola_vid1090374/video.shtml

De Bhál

De Bhál wrote: »

Like most sprinters I've seen, Bennett has a fair few wins where he's had to do it himself after the lead out doesn't make it to the last km.

This one linked below stands out for me as a great sprint by him without a leadout.
Another one at Vuelta a Burgos last year where he did a solo uphill attack from a kilometre out - can't find footage of that.

https://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/giro-d-italia/2018/giro-d-italia-2018-sam-bennett-coasts-to-win-at-imola_vid1090374/video.shtml

Burgos one was great

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmvnR1l_Xfc

Macy0161

That Giro stage to Imola too. And there was a Tour of Turkey stage where he attacked off the front rather than wait for the sprint.

Dodge

I’d argue his win in Paris was without a train too. He effectively left his own train to track Pedersen and then beat him with power

His opening win in Paris Nice this year had no team mates for the last KM either

CramCycle

De Bhál wrote: »

Like most sprinters I've seen, Bennett has a fair few wins where he's had to do it himself after the lead out doesn't make it to the last km.

This one linked below at Imola in the Giro stands out for me as a great sprint by him without a leadout.
Another one at Vuelta a Burgos last year where he did a solo uphill attack from a kilometre out - can't find footage of that.

https://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/giro-d-italia/2018/giro-d-italia-2018-sam-bennett-coasts-to-win-at-imola_vid1090374/video.shtml

One of my favourite wins, an uphill sprint from 1km out. Fair enoguh there was a crash but there was enough riders through that he wasn't handed it. And if you look at the crash he had just started this attack so it was the plan all along I think.
https://www.irishcyclingnews.com/video-sam-bennett-wins-stage-4-vuelta-a-burgos/

dublin49

Have been watchin Sam for quite a while now and I would say he definitely can win without a lead out.Was it the Giro where Viviani won 3 with DQS and Sam won 2 with Bora.I have actually thought Caleb Ewan has benefited by knowing exactly what Sam would be doing with DQS and has pipped him a few times accordingly.

swarlb

breezy1985 wrote: »

You clearly never watched him race for Bora.
The rest of this is just "back in my day" old man shouting at cloud nonsense.

No need to be so defensive. One thing is certain, you will be old one day, and trust me, you will 'look back'.
Sam Bennett as I have said, is clearly a very competent professional, but he needs that one 'classic' win to give himself a confidence boost. Once he gets that under his belt, he can relax, and other victories will follow easier.
On more than one occasion Kelly has commented that the race win he remembers the most was his first classic, and if you look back at a photo of that Tour of Lombardy win (there I go, looking back again) you can barely see who's wheel is in front.
There's a lot more of the year left... who knows, some golfer could win the prize, or maybe a snooker player.... possibly darts ..... it's not a given.

happytramp

It's an odd point to make alright..... He was basically well known for winning without support from his team. It was a major source of frustration for those on here over the last few years.

Thud

eeeee wrote: »

No female jockey in history has ever come close to what she is doing this season, not even close.

Julie Krone might disagree

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Krone

mewso

Bit confused with the comparison to Kelly though. Bennett is a pure sprinter and while Kelly was technically a sprinter he was really a classics/cobble specialist. I don't see why Sam has to win a classic. He certainly could but winning at the Champs Elysees would be the pinnacle for a pure sprinter I would have thought and he has done that. The rest is gravy.

happytramp

Sam won a world tour level classic a few weeks ago.

mewso

happytramp wrote: »

Sam won a world tour level classic a few weeks ago.

Indeed he did. One of the few he could realistically win. I can't see him winning the cobbled classics even though he made a good go of it at Gent-Wevelgem.

eeeee

Thud wrote: »

Julie Krone might disagree

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Krone

Julie was a savage tough rider, and won some big races, but was never almost champion jockey. She was also a flat rider not a NH rider, it's s different discipline, like road racing and downhill MTBing. Haley Turner would be a good comparison with her.



On Sam, I think he's conclusively proven he is the fastest man around the last 2 years. Racing was different in Kelly's time, the specialisation of riders wasn't anywhere near the level it is now. I don't think sprint trains were as much of a thing in Kelly's day, and I'd say they're faster now than they were then (I mean they were still silly quick back then but they're savage now!).

He's won the green jersey, mopped up enough sprint stages and has won a WT race, I'd have that down as a pretty conclusive palmares!