Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton

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No Pants wrote: »

Can you please give me an example of such an event? I can't see myself taking a journey just because it was free and I don't understand why anyone else would.

To add weight to what others are saying, you couldn't keep my father off the trains when he got his FTP. He was always concious of the cost of running the car, but that weight was lifted when he got the free travel.

Losty Dublin

BuffyBot wrote: »

Whatever your parents may do, that's merely anecdotal evidence and doesn't bring anything to add weight to the claim above.

We all know lots of people who do lots of things: it doesn't make it representative of the general populous, however.

Ask around and see how many of us will know of DSP pass holders who do just this and make trips primarily on their having a free pass to use. It will make for a lot of anecdotes.

BuffyBot

..but still anecdotes, and that's the problem

Owryan

BuffyBot wrote: »

..but still anecdotes, and that's the problem

Surely everything about the travel pass debate is anecdotal ? I ve never been asked as to the nature of my journey. Dont even think therr is anyone even watching or recording how the passes are used.

Losty Dublin

BuffyBot wrote: »

..but still anecdotes, and that's the problem

They will remain anecdotes as to prove otherwise means questioning a passengers reason for making their trip, something we all know is impractical, offensive and wrong for transport staff to undertake. But the fact is, many pass holders make trips that would, lets be conservative, be best described as leisure trips.

Regardless, it deflects from the fact that the DSP pay bugger all for the scheme, are unwilling to pay more to transport companies and yet they still issue new passes for the scheme. No sane person can defend the scheme in it's current form and there is no sign of change anytime soon.

Daemonic

BuffyBot wrote: »

Whatever your parents may do, that's merely anecdotal evidence and doesn't bring anything to add weight to the claim above.

I never suggested it was hard fact, just examples of unnecessary trips as the previous poster couldn't imagine what these could entail.

LXFlyer

I'd have to concur - I've certainly seen older people taking trips on the bus/train around the country. When I've spoken to them, the response I've got is that that they do it for the very reason that it is free and gives them an opportunity to have a day out of the house and explore.

To be fair in a way, that was part of the objective of the scheme - to encourage older people to get out of their houses and remain active, rather than simply sitting at home.

RonanM123

I fully understand the "something to do" argument, yes it valid but for people who havn't passes and who can't afford the train fares they can't take a trip for "something to do".

Lets call a spade a spade here OAP's are not the poorest people in society and most could afford to pay a few euro per trip. They have not being affected over the last few years near as much as everybody else.

..and what about the outcry when Grandma Jones is left behind at station X missing her vital puppy to cure her of cancer of the puppy? Not workable, really.

You usually get a few weeks notice from HSE and if there was cases like this, take your letter with you on the day and you will be allowed to travel.

To be fair in a way, that was part of the objective of the scheme - to encourage older people to get out of their houses and remain active, rather than simply sitting at home.

Agree but the objective wasn't to have 1.1 million passes issued to people. Single mothers, people with so called "disabilities". It's insane that people who are able to driver and have a disability are allowed a pass. If you can't drive because of a disability fine you should have passes. Our social welfare system is a free for all.

bmaxi

RonanM123 wrote: »

Lets call a spade a spade here OAP's are not the poorest people in society and most could afford to pay a few euro per trip. They have not being affected over the last few years near as much as everybody else.


.

Rather a sweeping statement. Do you know this to be a fact, can you supply any statistics to support this or are you basing it on the blue hair retired civil servant or CEO etc.?
I think, if you bothered to research it, you'd find that State pensioners have been severely impacted upon by the cuts and also by the general rise in the cost of living and to try to suggest otherwise is bunkum.

dowlingm

Compare to the energy and phone subsidies. Most OAPs will pay a bit over the subsidy given - it is not a unlimited consumption free service. If OAPs had access to say 10 local journeys a week and 2-4 national journeys a month, would that be harsh?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

bmaxi

dowlingm wrote: »

Compare to the energy and phone subsidies. Most OAPs will pay a bit over the subsidy given - it is not a unlimited consumption free service. If OAPs had access to say 10 local journeys a week and 2-4 national journeys a month, would that be harsh?

Firstly, only urban dwellers have local services. Secondly, do you propose to reduce the subsidy paid to transport companies for providing the service, if so where will, let's say BE, IE and DB make up the shortfall from? They can't operate within budget as it is and to reduce the subsidy would only lead to fare rises, job cuts and service cuts or do you propose the Government should take away free travel from OAPs and maintain the subsidy, or that CIE should maintain services as they stand without it?
Leave OAPs alone, they've done their bit, instead maybe concentrate on removing subsidies from those malingerers who haven't worked a day in their lives and those women who can't keep their knees together after two cans of Dutch Gold.

loyatemu

dowlingm wrote: »

Compare to the energy and phone subsidies. Most OAPs will pay a bit over the subsidy given - it is not a unlimited consumption free service. If OAPs had access to say 10 local journeys a week and 2-4 national journeys a month, would that be harsh?

how many OAPs are making more journeys than that though? i.e. would it make any difference?

Tickityboo

I'm sure there are plenty of OAPs who knew how to bleed the system aswell.
They didn't all work for 40 or 50 years paying taxes.
There are generations of the same families who never worked a day in their lives!!
All those skangers going around now will be OAPs one day and people will say they deserve to be looked after because they earned it.!!
Not all the OAPs going around now earned it.!!

flutered

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

as she has health issues she cannot galavant aroud the country, some folks like to travel quite a lot around ireland, a neighbour has been to every town and city in ireland in the past two years, the only time the
neighbour is home is to eat make the sambos sleep and fill the flask, then away again the following day, nare a bob is spent during these excursions.

dowlingm

bmaxi wrote: »

Firstly, only urban dwellers have local services. Secondly, do you propose to reduce the subsidy paid to transport companies for providing the service, if so where will, let's say BE, IE and DB make up the shortfall from? They can't operate within budget as it is and to reduce the subsidy would only lead to fare rises, job cuts and service cuts or do you propose the Government should take away free travel from OAPs and maintain the subsidy, or that CIE should maintain services as they stand without it?

If the Government paid a corporate rate per warrant issued as opposed to a block grant which reflects nowhere near the cost of the service then the money amount wouldn't have to fall much.

As for "leave the OAPs alone" - considering the many cuts to services OAPs will face in the next few years, I'd rather the government concentrated on those rather than an unlimited entitlement to travel.

_Kaiser_

I doubt OAP's on the state pension using the bus/train for a day trip for something to do is the issue.

Surely the bigger problem is the "others" who seem to qualify for free transport?

Peppa Pig

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Surely the bigger problem is the "others" who seem to qualify for free transport?

I keep hearing this and admit I am not 100% sure who these "others" are. I have read through the lines and have an idea but can someone actually clarify it for me.
We have OAPs and people on disability pensions who automatically get them. Who else can qualify for them?

StreetLight

Drug addicts are somehow classed as disabled, so they qualify on the basis of their income from state benefits.

VONSHIRACH

As well as OAP's, people on invalidity pension and disability allowance qualify for the free travel pass (FTP). Also, someone who receives carer's allowance. This includes people with serious illness and also the self-inflicted ailments eg the junkie. Remember though, that a carer with a FTB is caring for a person genuinely ill or incapitated maybe with cancer, dementia, severe mental handicap etc. I know someone who had a difficult cancer experience, just got through it, and the looks and reaction they got when they showed the FTB to some Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann personnel was terrible. Cancer patients have to travel from Wesport and Donegal etc to Dublin for treatments. Outwardly, person looked reasonably ok as treatment had ended, but inside was a different story, multiple surgeries, side-effects etc

Even in my circle of neighbours/friends I have the following examples...

Invalidity Pension - person unable to work, heart issues and weekly permanent kidney dialysis. Has a FTP with spouse.

Carer's Allowance - cancer suffererer cared for by spouse. FTP issued to carer.

Carer's Allowance - sibling cared for elderly terminal cancer sibling. FTP issued to carer.

Incapacitated person in nursing home - unable to use FTP for many years.

Person - has never used the FTP since qualified as OAP 10 years ago, prefers to drive!


On the negative side, I also know of a person who cared for a terminally ill relative a good few years ago and still use their FTP pass.

In this techologically advanced age, the FTP should be barcoded to be scanned for bus/rail/luas travel. Travel data would be very useful and the FTP scheme could be overhauled and cleaned up. Any stolen/lost/invalid FTP's could be just cancelled and rendered useless. With accurate user data, a fairer model for the travel companies, DSP and users could be implemented.

Hilly Bill

It should only be given to OAP's, those in wheelchairs, visually impaired and serious mental health issues etc. It does not matter how wealthy these are or how often they use it.
Ive seen able bodied people travel around the country on business on the pass, point being that if they are able bodied and well enough to run a business then they shouldnt be allowed the free pass. Ive seen bodybuilders using the pass, Well dressed middle aged women using it to go shopping to Belfast for the day and even having a companion with them on the pass.
These are the passes that the Minister should go after.

foggy_lad

VONSHIRACH wrote: »

As well as OAP's, people on invalidity pension and disability allowance qualify for the free travel pass (FTP). Also, someone who receives carer's allowance. This includes people with serious illness and also the self-inflicted ailments eg the junkie. Remember though, that a carer with a FTB is caring for a person genuinely ill or incapitated maybe with cancer, dementia, severe mental handicap etc.

And they can use their free travel at any time even when the person they care for is not with them. many use theirs to travel to/from work etc as they only care for their elderly family member or neighbour in the evenings and mornings.

I know someone who had a difficult cancer experience, just got through it, and the looks and reaction they got when they showed the FTB to some Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann personnel was terrible.

This kind of thing is just despicable. Someone should really tell these people that it is not their job to say who should or should not have free travel, it is their jobs to issue tickets to those who present the pass and ask for a sample of the persons signature to compare to the signature on the pass if they have doubts!

Cancer patients have to travel from Wesport and Donegal etc to Dublin for treatments. Outwardly, person looked reasonably ok as treatment had ended, but inside was a different story, multiple surgeries, side-effects etc

Even in my circle of neighbours/friends I have the following examples...

Invalidity Pension - person unable to work, heart issues and weekly permanent kidney dialysis. Has a FTP with spouse.

Carer's Allowance - cancer suffererer cared for by spouse. FTP issued to carer.

Carer's Allowance - sibling cared for elderly terminal cancer sibling. FTP issued to carer.

Incapacitated person in nursing home - unable to use FTP for many years.

Person - has never used the FTP since qualified as OAP 10 years ago, prefers to drive!


On the negative side, I also know of a person who cared for a terminally ill relative a good few years ago and still use their FTP pass.

In this techologically advanced age, the FTP should be barcoded to be scanned for bus/rail/luas travel. Travel data would be very useful and the FTP scheme could be overhauled and cleaned up. Any stolen/lost/invalid FTP's could be just cancelled and rendered useless. With accurate user data, a fairer model for the travel companies, DSP and users could be implemented.

The pass is issued to the following
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/204_Free-Travel.aspx#l1f4da

You may be entitled to free travel if you are permanently living in the State and:

You are aged 66 or over
You are getting Disability Allowance, Blind Pension, Carer's Allowance or an Invalidity Pension from the Department of Social Protection.
You have been getting Incapacity Supplement or Workmen's Compensation with Disablement Pension for at least 12 months
You are blind or visually impaired and meet the medical conditions for Blind Pension
You are a specified carer for a person getting Constant Attendance Allowance or Prescribed Relatives Allowance from the Department
You are getting a social security invalidity payment, or similar payment, from another EU member state or from a country with which Ireland has a bilateral social security agreement for at least 12 months
You are a widow or widower or a surviving civil partner aged 60 or over whose late spouse/civil partner held a free travel pass and who is getting one of the following payments: State Pension (Transition), Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Partner's (Contributory) Pension, Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Partner's (Non-Contributory) Pension, One-Parent Family Payment, Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Partner's Pension under the Occupational Injuries Benefit Scheme or a similar social security pension/benefit from an EU member state or a country with which Ireland has a bilateral social security agreement, or an ordinary Garda widow's pension.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It should only be given to OAP's, those in wheelchairs, visually impaired and serious mental health issues etc. It does not matter how wealthy these are or how often they uses it.
Ive seen able bodied people travel around the country on business on the pass, point being that if they are able bodied and well enough to run a business then they shouldnt be allowed the free pass. Ive seen bodybuilders using the pass, Well dressed middle aged women using it to go shopping to Belfast for the day and even having a companion with them on the pass.
These are the passes that the Minister should go after.

Joan Burton and Leo V ought to stand at the front of a few Dublin Bus routes or the ticket barrier at Tara Street during rush hour to see how abused the scheme is.

Hilly Bill

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Joan Burton and Leo V ought to stand at the front of a few Dublin Bus routes or the ticket barrier at Tara Street during rush hour to see how abused the scheme is.

Exactly, they should stand at the ticket office in Connolly and listen to the staff being abused by pass holders just for asking for ID , even though the persons giving the abuse wasnt the persons that was asked for ID .

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Exactly, they should stand at the ticket office in Connolly and listen to the staff being abused by pass holders just for asking for ID , even though the persons giving the abuse wasnt the persons that was asked for ID .

If any legitimate pass holder refuses to show photo id what happens next?

The rules are quite clear that the only check that can be carried out is to ask the pass holder for a sample of their signature.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Gatling

Its gas the amount of CIE staff that complain about the free pass scheme ,

They should bring in a smart card that has a built in Renewal date every 6 -12 months that has to be brought to either the welfare or CIE office to renew with photo id

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

If any legitimate pass holder refuses to show photo id what happens next?

The rules are quite clear that the only check that can be carried out is to ask the pass holder for a sample of their signature.

We have gone over this many time before. If there is any doubt then its up to the pass holder to prove by any means that they are the rightful holder of the pass. Some even refuse to give the signature. Its no biggy to show anything else with your name on it as id.
My point is that there are those that abuse the staff just for asking for id when that person had nothing to do with the other person that was asked.
Abusing the staff should also be a reason to revoke the pass.

Hilly Bill

Gatling wrote: »

Its gas the amount of CIE staff that complain about the free pass scheme ,

They should bring in a smart card that has a built in Renewal date every 6 -12 months that has to be brought to either the welfare or CIE office to renew with photo id

Isn't that what they are doing at the moment.?

foggy_lad

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Indeed if people live in the proscribed areas they must possess a photo-pass card or their pass is not valid!

but for station staff to threaten people from rural areas that they will confiscate their pass unless they can show a passport or some other photo id is a despicable thing to do. This is what Hilly Bill is referring to in their comment above, it is also referring almost directly to a closed thread so I will discuss it no further here.