Motor tax reforms

spuddy

I came across an interesting government proposal about reforming motor taxation.

Noteworthy parts:

introducing online vehicle registration services

abolishing the paper tax disc

closing most tax offices ("recognise that we are now clearly in a digital world")

using post offices for any remaining face-to-face transations

redeploying and/or making redundant civil servants

Alas, these recommendations are for NI. However they got me thinking....
In these times of austerity, what of the above should we be considering?

Ken.

Sack civil servants. Not a fücking chance.

MetzgerMeister

If they were going to reform motor tax, they should make the CC system fairer and reduce the cost.

Misleading thread title is misleading.

spuddy

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

If they were going to reform motor tax, they should make the CC system fairer and reduce the cost.

Misleading thread title is misleading.

Is the title that misleading? Really wasn't meant to be, I'd like to see how we could reform motor tax. The ideas coming from the North have some merit, as I'd guess that a significant amount of the revenue generated by motor tax goes towards its collection, which costs us all money.

How would you make it fairer?

unkel

I know a much cheaper system!

spuddy wrote: »

Noteworthy parts:

introducing online vehicle registration services

Abolish all registration systems / services

closing most tax offices ("recognise that we are now clearly in a digital world")

Close all tax offices

using post offices for any remaining face-to-face transations

Abolish all face-to-face transactions

And on top of that get others to collect all motor tax for the government free of charge

And my brilliant system is: put all motor tax on fuel. Simples.

The fairest system possible as you only pay as you use fuel / pollute

Stheno

unkel wrote: »

I know a much cheaper system!



And on top of that get others to collect all motor tax for the government free of charge

And my brilliant system is: put all motor tax on fuel. Simples.

The fairest system possible as you only pay as you use fuel / pollute

Agreed

Scortho

unkel wrote: »

I know a much cheaper system!



And on top of that get others to collect all motor tax for the government free of charge

And my brilliant system is: put all motor tax on fuel. Simples.

The fairest system possible as you only pay as you use fuel / pollute

And a vat rebate for companies commercial fleet so as not to damage the growth of companies (not commercials as some commercials aren't used for company purposes).

unkel

Scortho wrote: »

And a vat rebate for companies commercial fleet

All purchases for all VAT registered companies should be eligble for a full VAT refund / offset. So yes diesel and petrol should be included

Scortho

unkel wrote: »

All purchases for all VAT registered companies should be eligble for a full VAT refund / offset. So yes diesel and petrol should be included

It's the simplest solution. Also remove the dye from agricultural diesel. Bye bye washed diesel. Though some people in Monaghan my not be happy!:P
Tax compliant farmers at years end get a rebate.

unkel

Scortho wrote: »

Also remove the dye from agricultural diesel. Bye bye washed diesel.

Don't get me started on that! I know godfather de Valera wanted us all to be simple archbishop McQuaid fearing subsidised farmers but thank God fukc this country has move on

MetzgerMeister

spuddy wrote: »

Is the title that misleading? Really wasn't meant to be, I'd like to see how we could reform motor tax. The ideas coming from the North have some merit, as I'd guess that a significant amount of the revenue generated by motor tax goes towards its collection, which costs us all money.

How would you make it fairer?

It's misleading in the regard that what you're talking about is moreso a reform of the taxation system as opposed to the motor tax itself.

I would make it fairer by reducing the cost of the higher rates. How is it fair for someone with a 3 ltr + engine to pay over €1500 a year on motor tax alone? Fine, you knew the tax before you bought the car but that still does not make it fair. Then again no "tax" is fair but the CC system was never a very realistic system to begin with, let alone when the CO2 system came in.

For instance, on the CC system, it's €199 to tax a 1ltr. Why then isn't that tripled for a 3ltr? Why am I paying €1494 instead of €597?

unkel wrote: »

I know a much cheaper system!



And on top of that get others to collect all motor tax for the government free of charge

And my brilliant system is: put all motor tax on fuel. Simples.

The fairest system possible as you only pay as you use fuel / pollute

I know it's not that much every year per person but what about someone who is buying petrol for a lawnmower/strimmer etc.?

Red Kev

unkel wrote: »

I know a much cheaper system!



And on top of that get others to collect all motor tax for the government free of charge

And my brilliant system is: put all motor tax on fuel. Simples.

The fairest system possible as you only pay as you use fuel / pollute

I think the figure quoted is 40c per litre. Time ot do that was in 2006-07, height of thee boom and fuel was under €1.00. Hard to justify it now pushing petrol over €2.00.

The biggest problem is that whoever introduces it will be finished by the opposition promising to get rid of it etc. It's political suicide though it's something I'm in favour of myself.

I'm all for paying it at the post office and while we're at it, introduce the Swedish-German system and put the stickers for NCT, tax and insurance on the reg plate front and rear to make the dodgers more easy to identify.

MuppetCheck

Simplest solution with regard to motor taxation is to put it on the fuel at point of purchase. The reason this isn't done is because I'd imagine they cannot figure out a forecast on the revenues with such a system. A national mileage register through the NCT would help.

I'd be screwed if that happened but common sense tells you the user needs to pay.

I'm all for closing motor tax offices. There's so much a post office can (and would be willing) to do that would render many government offices redundant. Haven't visited one since the online system went live.

Supergurrier

OP should write headlines for the Daily Mail

allthedoyles

Who wants to spend more time queueing in post offices .

In our local PO , they start queueing at 8am every morning , even though it don't open till 9am .

I certainly agree with re-deploying the civil servants to the Post office dole queue though.

Jesus.

All the suggestions in the OP are cosmetic. They don't mean a damn.

What's needed is exactly what Metzger Meister and Unkel have suggested. Either reform the price structure to one that actually makes sense or better still, abolish it altogether and put the tax on fuel.

The Motor tax situation in this Country is a total farce.

CiniO

Jesus. wrote: »

All the suggestions in the OP are cosmetic. They don't mean a damn.

What's needed is exactly what Metzger Meister and Unkel have suggested. Either reform the price structure to one that actually makes sense or better still, abolish it altogether and put the tax on fuel.

The Motor tax situation in this Country is a total farce.

I've got even better idea.
Just scrap motortax at all.
Why should we pay some extra tax on cars which are thing of everyday use these days.

Scortho

CiniO wrote: »

I've got even better idea.
Just scrap motortax at all.
Why should we pay some extra tax on cars which are thing of everyday use these days.

Because we'd have to raise the money elsewhere?
We are spending a significant amount more than what were taking in in tax revenue.

CiniO

Scortho wrote: »

Because we'd have to raise the money elsewhere?
We are spending a significant amount more than what were taking in in tax revenue.

I've got a better idea.
Instead of rising money elsewhere, why does government not cut the spendings?

MetzgerMeister

CiniO wrote: »

I've got a better idea.
Instead of rising money elsewhere, why does government not cut the spendings?

Cut spending where exactly? You're talking about something like 3 years of no road repairs to make up the revenue lost from motor tax within a 6 month period :pac:

Scortho

CiniO wrote: »

I've got a better idea.
Instead of rising money elsewhere, why does government not cut the spendings?

Oh I'd agree with that definitely. However they'd never do that, as labour won't allow the department with the highest spending to have the biggest cuts.

Idbatterim

in that case why not just get rid of motor tax entirely and make up the shortfall by increasing taxes or cutting expenditure. We all use the roads, be it as drivers ourselves, public transport users, cyclists etc...

CiniO

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Cut spending where exactly? You're talking about something like 3 years of no road repairs to make up the revenue lost from motor tax within a 6 month period :pac:

In my region roads weren't repaired for last 3 years so it wouldn't make any difference.

But there is plenty of other areas to make cuts, f.e horrendous amounts of money paid to people who sit on the dole for 2, 3, 5, 10 or more years (that's just one of the examples).

Why should I pay crazy rates of tax on my car, to support someone who is not willing to do anything.

Jesus.

CiniO wrote: »

In my region roads weren't repaired for last 3 years so it wouldn't make any difference.But there is plenty of other areas to make cuts, f.e horrendous amounts of money paid to people who sit on the dole for 2, 3, 5, 10 or more years (that's just one of the examples).Why should I pay crazy rates of tax on my car, to support someone who is not willing to do anything.

Now its getting a bit crazy. There are very few of those people on the live register. The vast majority were made redundant because the gamblers at the high end of society destroyed the Country through their recklessness and greed. When things go tits up, why is the focus always put on a tiny number of people who are taking what's ultimately a pittance compared to what the real crooks have taken from this Country?

I feel your rage, Cinio mate, but I think you're directing your fire in the wrong direction.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

allthedoyles wrote: »

Who wants to spend more time queueing in post offices .

In our local PO , they start queueing at 8am every morning , even though it don't open till 9am .

I certainly agree with re-deploying the civil servants to the Post office dole queue though.

Most Post Office workers are not civil servants....An Post in itself is a semi state (so its employees are generally not civil servants either). Most Post Offices are run privately and get a commission from the Dept of Social Protection for each dole claim they pay out, so its up to the people who run them how many people are employed there. Nothing to do with redeployment.

Its bad when you have PS bashing going on in the feckin Motors forum.

CiniO

Jesus. wrote: »

Now its getting a bit crazy. There are very few of those people on the live register. The vast majority were made redundant because the gamblers at the high end of society destroyed the Country through their recklessness and greed. When things go tits up, why is the focus always put on a tiny number of people who are taking what's ultimately a pittance compared to what the real crooks have taken from this Country?

I feel your rage, Cinio mate, but I think you're directing your fire in the wrong direction.

See, I live in rural area in West of Ireland, so I just point of things I see around me.
I don't deny you are right here probably, that it's just a tiny portion of where money is wasted.

But what I'm interested in here is why I have to pay very big money in tax just for privilege of having a car.
For me it's as ridiculous as they suddenly asked people to pay extra tax on f.e. their clothing.
Why don't we pay 30% VRT on pair of jeans + 20 quid every 3 months for privilege of being able to wear them in public. And if you decide to keep them in your wardrobe unused, you could declare them off.

Motor tax is ridiculous tax which is not needed for anything.
And if government needs money from this tax, it means they have things arranged wrongly, as I'm sure they could make it working without motortax.

Jesus.

CiniO wrote: »

See, I live in rural area in West of Ireland, so I just point of things I see around me.
I don't deny you are right here probably, that it's just a tiny portion of where money is wasted.But what I'm interested in here is why I have to pay very big money in tax just for privilege of having a car.
For me it's as ridiculous as they suddenly asked people to pay extra tax on f.e. their clothing.Why don't we pay 30% VRT on pair of jeans + 20 quid every 3 months for privilege of being able to wear them in public. And if you decide to keep them in your wardrobe unused, you could declare them off.Motor tax is ridiculous tax which is not needed for anything.And if government needs money from this tax, it means they have things arranged wrongly, as I'm sure they could make it working without motortax.

Couldn't agree more pal. Although I don't mind paying tax on motoring, whether it be on the car or at the pumps, when its done reasonably and fairly, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Irish motorist gets fu*ked up the ass by the Government and it feels like its almost a criminal offence now to own a car in this Country.

It stinks.

Does anyone seriously think the Government will change to a screw you if you use your car or not system to a screw you if you only use it system ?

The current system works for them best.

Starscream25

Abolish motor tax, increase tax on fuel, never going to happen tho

pred racer

allthedoyles wrote: »

Who wants to spend more time queueing in post offices .

In our local PO , they start queueing at 8am every morning , even though it don't open till 9am .

Yeah whats the story with that? Are they getting their dole early to be in time for work:p

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

3 years of no road repairs to make up the revenue lost from motor tax within a 6 month period :pac:

Sounds like whats happening round my way, and I bloody pay mine;)

spuddy

Starscream25 wrote: »

Abolish motor tax, increase tax on fuel, never going to happen tho

I'd agree with that analysis, in the current climate, no government will abolish motor tax. So I'll go back to my original question, what efficiencies could be introduced to get better value out of the existing system and help avoid further rate increases?

MetzgerMeister

There's a lot of "big" engined cars sitting in forecourts and sitting in peoples' driveways due to the huge tax rate on them. If the rate was reduced, people might then be in a better position to buy them. That would bring in quite a sum of money regardless of the fact that the rate has been reduced.

Max Power1

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

There's a lot of "big" engined cars sitting in forecourts and sitting in peoples' driveways due to the huge tax rate on them. If the rate was reduced, people might then be in a better position to buy them. That would bring in quite a sum of money regardless of the fact that the rate has been reduced.

I know it is self biased as I own one (soon to be two) large engined cars, but I think motor tax should be capped at 1000-1200. I mean the top rate in the UK (including NI) is half that.

Rovi

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

There's a lot of "big" engined cars sitting in forecourts and sitting in peoples' driveways due to the huge tax rate on them. If the rate was reduced, people might then be in a better position to buy them. That would bring in quite a sum of money regardless of the fact that the rate has been reduced.

^
|
|
This.

I have 4.2 liters worth of twin-turboed goodness sitting in storage for the best part of 2 years now.
That's 2 year's worth of motor tax, insurance levies, and vat & excise duty on fuel that the Minister for Finance DIDN'T get from me.

The motor tax is the single biggest sticking point.
€5/day whether it moves or not is simply unsustainable.

If the annual tax was to dip into a 3 figure sum, that car would be on the road, generating revenue.

Max Power1

Rovi wrote: »

^
...
I have 4.2 liters worth of twin-turboed goodness sitting in storage .....

4.2 twin turbo? Do tell what she is

Im guessing something from the vag stable?

Rovi

'03 RS6

Hotblack Desiato

I'd agree with a 'pay as you use' system, but it'll never happen:

- Fuel will be much cheaper in the North so there'll be widespread cross-border purchasing and smuggling.

- Most importantly, rural politicians and voters will kick up hell over it. 'It's all right for them b***ards up in Dublin who can walk to the shops', etc. etc. Of course if you choose to live in a one-off house where you have to drive ten miles to buy a carton of milk, that's a choice - and not a very sustainable one.

- If/when electric vehicles become more popular, they'll be paying nothing at all for the roads they use. Like the CO2 tax bands, the Greens didn't think through the implications of the policies they supported, muppets :rolleyes:

Max Power1

ninja900 wrote: »

I'd agree with a 'pay as you use' system, but it'll never happen:

- Fuel will be much cheaper in the North so there'll be widespread cross-border purchasing and smuggling.

- Most importantly, rural politicians and voters will kick up hell over it. 'It's all right for them b***ards up in Dublin who can walk to the shops', etc. etc. Of course if you choose to live in a one-off house where you have to drive ten miles to buy a carton of milk, that's a choice - and not a very sustainable one.

- If/when electric vehicles become more popular, they'll be paying nothing at all for the roads they use. Like the CO2 tax bands, the Greens didn't think through the implications of the policies they supported, muppets :rolleyes:

Once EVs (if they do) become more widely used, you can bet your last dollar that they will be heavily taxed too.
We cant just give up the massive income from motor tax on EV's

YbFocus

How much could you expect as a levy on fuel if that were to come in?
As I do 50,000 miles privately annually it terrifies me. Just for it to equal my current €1494 it would be roughly 30c a litre.

I know it would be more than this though
Like if it was 50c I'd be better off with a helicopter!

unkel

YbFocus wrote: »

How much could you expect as a levy on fuel if that were to come in?

I've done a few sums, I've seen a few sums. Iirc we're talking about 30-35c/l

But that was before the green imbeciles persuaded the government to go the CO2 path (and motor tax revenues are now less than half of what they used to be because of the clowns that should never have been allowed to play senior hurling...

At the current take, my guess (based on no calculations whatsoever) would be more like 20c/l

YbFocus wrote: »

As I do 50,000 miles privately annually

Pay up you dirty polluter! :pac:

YbFocus

Yes I account for 13% if the world's carbon emissions every year :pac:
20c would be great and would only see me paying 1k for tax!
35c and that's 2.5k

Idbatterim

Lads I drive a 2.5 and am looking to potentially have a bigger engine in my next car, but Iv said it before and Ill say it again, we are CHOOSING to drive the bigger engine cars and screw ourselves... Of course I think the rates are disgraceful, Im not for one second suggesting their not...

MetzgerMeister

Idbatterim wrote: »

Lads I drive a 2.5 and am looking to potentially have a bigger engine in my next car, but Iv said it before and Ill say it again, we are CHOOSING to drive the bigger engine cars and screw ourselves... Of course I think the rates are disgraceful, Im not for one second suggesting their not...

I chose to pay a high rate when I bought my current car before the tax increase last year. I chose to pay that rate but I didn't choose to pay the rate it went to when I had to renew the tax in February.

The highest rates are already too damn high, why not increase just the CO2 rates as they are feck all anyway? There's not many people buying cars that fall into the €2100+ CO2 rate so they're losing out very much in that bracket.

As has often been said, you only get cheap tax if you can afford a new car. If you can't afford it, you're going to be paying the old rate. My car is a 2007 and is €1494 to tax. On the CO2 system (with the exact same N54 engine) it's €750. If I could afford one a year newer, I'd be paying half what I'm paying.

Now here's a joke - in the UK, my car is £225 a year to tax, as is a bloody Ferrari Enzo :pac:

Why should the Government care if people want to drive big engined cars ?

You see it's all about image and that's all Ireland and the Government care about. See we're seen to be more environmentally friendly by taxing higher polluting Co2 cars as the ignorant muppets see.

The Government are so misinformed they actually think and believe Co2 is a pollutant, it is not. In fact the other emissions that come from exhaust are actually toxic and harmful to our health and atmosphere, Co2 isn't.

Worst of all is they promote the most polluting of fuel available apart from Coal and that's diesel !

I've to pay 500 a year on one of the lowest harmful emissions cars available while people drive around town in their soot box diesels causing much more air pollution and harm to health paying as low as 120 Euro's !

Idbatterim

As has often been said, you only get cheap tax if you can afford a new car. If you can't afford it, you're going to be paying the old rate. My car is a 2007 and is €1494 to tax. On the CO2 system (with the exact same N54 engine) it's €750. If I could afford one a year newer, I'd be paying half what I'm paying.

Now here's a joke - in the UK, my car is £225 a year to tax, as is a bloody Ferrari Enzo

yeah but motor tax is near a sure bet every year for an increase, at least it is now with the "austerity" budgets. Also you dont need a new car to benefit from the the Co2 rates, an 08 will do, which is 5 years old and about to go 6, I have no doubt most on the CC based rates can afford a cheap 08 based on the emissions, it probably wont be a car you want to drive though. Also I have same predicament, with the tax for next car, reality is though, yeah you might be saving E750 on motor tax on the emissions based car, but that benefit is well and truly priced into the asking price of the 08+ emissions based car...

I agree with your comment on the Co2 rates by the way, the vast majority of cars on the Co2 rates are paying SFA...

There is no need for such high tax rates anyway, I pay 500 a year on the Prius, that is far too much.

I accept taxes on a small Island with a tiny population will always be extreme but there is property tax and water charges going to add probably a lot more than motor tax, so I don't think the government care so much about motor tax these days. We're going to be paying a lot more anyway.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no need for such high tax rates anyway, I pay 500 a year on the Prius, that is far too much.

I accept taxes on a small Island with a tiny population will always be extreme but there is property tax and water charges going to add probably a lot more than motor tax, so I don't think the government care so much about motor tax these days. We're going to be paying a lot more anyway.

My total tax bill will soon be over 2k per annum, more depending on the next budget. Insane amount of money - motorists really pay through the nose in this country compared to our nearist neighbors.

YbFocus

I thought the tax would be much higher considering the engine in the big 'Merican diesel your getting?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

YbFocus wrote: »

I thought the tax would be much higher considering the engine in the big 'Merican diesel your getting?

Commercial - 333 p/a

I mean, I don't know what you are talking about :P

YbFocus

Ah maxi baby we always knew it (fairly well) that it was you

Why the change?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

YbFocus wrote: »

Ah maxi baby we always knew it (fairly well) that it was you

Why the change?

I'm sure there was some doubt creeping in.

Well, just fancied a change. So, today is a new dawn for the poster formerly known as max power!