Gabe Newell - PC/Linux gaming and Steambox

jumbobreakfast

Interesting talk here about the history, current state of play and future of PC gaming in general. He talks about consoles too He also mentions something about an announcement next week which most people suspect has something to do with the so-called Steam Box

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg
This is the best quality vid I could find, link if you find a better one

gouche

Interesting alright.
He reckons Linux is the future of PC gaming.
You can see where he's coming from with the likes of Android maturing into a decent platform.

€10 says the announcement is HL3!
*runs for the hills*:pac:

Genghiz Cohen

gouche wrote: »

Interesting alright.
He reckons Linux is the future of PC gaming.
You can see where he's coming from with the likes of Android maturing into a decent platform.

€10 says the announcement is HL3!
*runs for the hills*:pac:

With a heavy heart, I'll take that bet.

Azza

Anyone have any experience using steam with Linux. What do the games run like?

returnNull

gouche wrote: »

€10 says the announcement is HL3!
*runs for the hills*:pac:

dont even fukking go there buddy:pac::pac:

C14N

It will take a lot of determination to try to make Linux the future of PC gaming. Even if it is a good platform for it, right now the user base just isn't there, not to mention that part of the appeal of PC gaming is that you can play games years later because the system is the same (which would be lost in the transition to a different OS).

Valve did pull off Steam though so maybe they could make this work. It would be hard to get the Steambox to do well though if it ran Linux, since hardly any Steam games are compatible.

ShadowHearth

C14N wrote: »

It will take a lot of determination to try to make Linux the future of PC gaming. Even if it is a good platform for it, right now the user base just isn't there, not to mention that part of the appeal of PC gaming is that you can play games years later because the system is the same (which would be lost in the transition to a different OS).

Valve did pull off Steam though so maybe they could make this work. It would be hard to get the Steambox to do well though if it ran Linux, since hardly any Steam games are compatible.

Well, install base is not there, because nothing works in there. If all my games would work on Linux I would switch. Specially when we know which way Windows is heading.
Someone needs to get ball rolling, valve is doing that and fair play to them.

dreamers75

Linux would need to be a consoles choice of development platform that can then be compiled to chosen console.

Video games are made in windows/DX then moved to the console of choice.

Break that barrier and yeah its possible. Highly unlikely to ever happen.

C14N

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well, install base is not there, because nothing works in there. If all my games would work on Linux I would switch. Specially when we know which way Windows is heading.
Someone needs to get ball rolling, valve is doing that and fair play to them.

Yeah but it's kind of a Catch-22 situation. Nobody wants to make games for Linux because it's not profitable because there's no user base, there's no user base because nobody makes games for Linux. I'm not saying Valve couldn't pull it off (especially after how they pulled off Steam which had a lot of friction early on) but it won't be easy or quick. If Steambox is really going to be a €600+ console and it only runs Linux, then the first batch just aren't going to sell that well.

Also, we never know where Windows is heading. Look back over 15 years and you'll see a pattern of alternating good and bad OSs. Windows 9 could be great for all we know.

wes

C14N wrote: »

not to mention that part of the appeal of PC gaming is that you can play games years later because the system is the same (which would be lost in the transition to a different OS).

Maybe Valve have come up with a souped up version of Wine? Which could potentially play a lot of those games, but it would be a pain to get working I think.

jumbobreakfast

dreamers75 wrote: »

Linux would need to be a consoles choice of development platform that can then be compiled to chosen console.

Video games are made in windows/DX then moved to the console of choice.

Break that barrier and yeah its possible. Highly unlikely to ever happen.

Yeah that's a good point, Directx is the standard for the big games alright. Gabe Newell keeps mentioning user created content so it will be interesting to see what OpenGL mod'able games they announce for it or if they announce some new game.

OpenGL rules out Arma as a possibility which is a pity considering the mod'ability of it. Directx 11.2's Tiled Resources feature looks to be a perfect match for Arma but on the other hand, it kind of proves Newell's point about walled gardens stifling development since this will be a windows 8.1 exclusive feature so developers probably won't bother adopting it for a long time.

Dyr

wes wrote: »

Maybe Valve have come up with a souped up version of Wine? Which could potentially play a lot of those games, but it would be a pain to get working I think.

If they arent doing something along those lines then its not really going to work

"hey lets port the last 15 years of PC gaming to linux, game by game" is'nt going to be a world beater

interestingly enough..how long has this been up now?

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/

dreamers75

Valve are pissed with msft about the updating tiles. Only Msft approved games get updated tiles.

Imo this is just pissing and moaning from valve.

Sierra Oscar

Azza wrote: »

Anyone have any experience using steam with Linux. What do the games run like?

Steam runs fine.

Games on the other hand ... hmm. Valve can say all they want about Linux being the future of PC gaming, but if the developers of the games that they have on Steam are not as enthusiastic as Valve about the concept then it is all just rhetoric.

I am pretty sure that less than 5% of all Steam users are using the Linux client. The Linux client has been out for nearly a year at this stage.

EDIT: According to the latest Steam Hardware survey results, 0.93% of Steam users are using the Linux client. The survey result lists all Linux distributions as being on the decline, with not one distribution showing growth. I remain somewhat sceptical about the "Linux Gaming Revolution". Users will not switch to Linux just because the Steam client runs on that platform. That is useless when the vast majority of games in your games library don't run on Linux.

C14N

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Steam runs fine.

Games on the other hand ... hmm. Valve can say all they want about Linux being the future of PC gaming, but if the developers of the games that they have on Steam are not as enthusiastic as Valve about the concept then it is all just rhetoric.

I am pretty sure that less than 5% of all Steam users are using the Linux client. The Linux client has been out for nearly a year at this stage.

EDIT: According to the latest Steam Hardware survey results, 0.93% of Steam users are using the Linux client. The survey result lists all Linux distributions as being on the decline, with not one distribution showing growth. I remain somewhat sceptical about the "Linux Gaming Revolution". Users will not switch to Linux just because the Steam client runs on that platform. That is useless when the vast majority of games in your games library don't run on Linux.

There is also the problem that Linux kind of undoes a lot of what Steam did to bring PC gaming back in popularity. The fantastic thing about Steam is how easy it made PC gaming. You just your game and it installs itself and you're up and running. It's so simple that lots of people just decide to give it a go, even if they weren't PC gamers to begin with, especially since even basic laptops these days can at least play Team Fortress 2 and a load of indie games.

If the whole industry started becoming Linux-focused then you'd see a huge drop-off in players because most people have never even heard of Linux, never mind knowing how to install it and then actually use it (and learning to use Linux ain't easy). Windows will be the default OS on pre-built PCs for a long time yet.

nesf

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Steam runs fine.

Games on the other hand ... hmm. Valve can say all they want about Linux being the future of PC gaming, but if the developers of the games that they have on Steam are not as enthusiastic as Valve about the concept then it is all just rhetoric.

I am pretty sure that less than 5% of all Steam users are using the Linux client. The Linux client has been out for nearly a year at this stage.

EDIT: According to the latest Steam Hardware survey results, 0.93% of Steam users are using the Linux client. The survey result lists all Linux distributions as being on the decline, with not one distribution showing growth. I remain somewhat sceptical about the "Linux Gaming Revolution". Users will not switch to Linux just because the Steam client runs on that platform. That is useless when the vast majority of games in your games library don't run on Linux.

A lot of the issue is that you can't just go from writing games for Windows and DirectX to Linux and OpenGL without meeting quite a number of problems. Valve themselves talked about this, the first working version of Left 4 Dead ran at a handful of fps on a powerful machine (now it runs faster than on Windows according to them). This is fine if you're committing for the long term because the time you put in figuring out how to code a game for your first few Linux titles will pay off when you're doing your later ones. That's a lot of commitment though when we're hearing every day about tight development budgets and limits on coder time. Valve can easily afford to port games over since Steam revenue can easily pay these coders wages, you can't really say the same for many other developers. More importantly, Valve can afford to be wrong about there being a Linux Gaming Revolution and it won't bring down the company.

Valve are trying to put together toolkits and documentation that will make it easier for developers to switch over, so they're trying to partially solve the problem I outlined above but I'm still not convinced they are going to succeed in this on the scale they want to.

vladicaris

Console on linux,why not

ShadowHearth

Half life 3 exclusive to linux - Linux share goes sky high and linux is the new gaming platform on pc! :pac:

5uspect

vladicaris wrote: »

Console on linux,why not

The PS3 pretty much runs a UNIX variant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_system_software

Why not build a Steam distro just for Valve hardware and the necessary tools etc for game development. Gabe already talked about debuggers. Or extend the steam client for Linux to include a full system configuration for running games.
Existing games with low performance requirements (2D platformers etc) could be run on a VM or something while new games could be developed just like console games. Of course convincing developers to develop for a steam box/ steam configured Ubuntu would be a big issue.

The steam box software would still let you do whatever you want but would be preconfigured for steam gaming. Kinda like CAELinux.

I have a lot of games in my backlog that I would rather play with a controller on the sofa. Most of these are not very demanding games either.

Tar.Aldarion

It's not really a short term idea, and realising how good the people at valve are, tehy are the most likely to make it happen. I'm already nearly switching to linux on steam and theres only 200 games out.

Azza

What distro you using and whats driver support like for it?

Sierra Oscar

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

It's not really a short term idea, and realising how good the people at valve are, tehy are the most likely to make it happen. I'm already nearly switching to linux on steam and theres only 200 games out.

The casual gamer is no where near ready to make the switch to Linux in my view. There are just far too many issues with gaming on Linux at the moment, and at the end of the day it is the casual gamer who decides what platforms developers make games for. It is grand for Valve, a billion dollar company, to toy with Linux. Other developers do not have the resources to spare to focus on creating dedicated Linux versions of their games.

Valve need to create an incentive for developers to create Linux versions of their games. That incentive was to have the Steam client Linux compatible from out of the box, allowing Linux gamers to access their games library at ease. The idea was that the uptake of Steam for Linux would be sufficent enough to make it worthwhile to devleop games for Linux.

However no one can argue with the fact that less than 1% of Steam users are on Linux, and that number is declining at the moment. I can't see many developers being too enthusiastic in spending a lot money on making their game compatible on Linux when the market is so small.

Azza

Sierra Oscar wrote:

That incentive was to have the Steam client Linux compatible from out of the box,

I seriously doubt that making steam Linux compatible is Valves sole incentive.

I guess we will know more with Valve's upcoming announcements.

nesf

I think an interesting question is whether Valve or someone with their blessing, will do a gamer specific distro, in an effort to create a common or at least standard, install base for gaming on Linux.

Sierra Oscar

Azza wrote: »

I seriously doubt that making steam Linux compatible is Valves sole incentive.

Oh definitely not, although they have been hammering away at it now for the last three years.

Wouldn't surprise me if the announcements this week were something along the following lines: 1) Valve's own version of a Linux OS. 2) That OS on a Steambox. 3) Not too sure about this, perhaps some sort of announcement that the Steambox will allow for multiplayer between traditional PC's and the Staembox from the get go?

Guess we will have to wait and see!

Monotype

What about steam for PS4? PS4 is already running a form of BSD which wouldn't be a huge step from linux. We know that they have ties with Sony and if Sony don't see them as a major threat, they might give it the go ahead if there's some mutual benefits... however, going the steambox route might be seen as an encroachment upon their territory.

I reckon that about 3 years time would be an excellent time to release a steam box. At present, both consoles are mediocre in the hardware world. 2/3 years would be early in the life of the console, but hardware which can double their performance or better could easily be available at a reasonable cost by then. I wouldn't like to go against them now - even if you can offer better performance, people will be looking closely at the prices.

Moon54

My money is on a Valve Linux distro called Steam OS,
has a nice ring to it, don't you think.

Here's a better quality vid of the LinuxCon conference;

C14N

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Half life 3 exclusive to linux - Linux share goes sky high and linux is the new gaming platform on pc! :pac:

That would actually probably get loads of people to install Linux, even if it was just a timed exclusive. It would hurt Valve's highly built-up goodwill though.

Why does Valve want to switch to Linux in the first place? Clearly that is a huge task if they're going to completely go through with it and it will take a long time. Is it all so they can make a Steam box without needing to pay licensing to Microsoft?

cherryghost

Moon54 wrote: »

My money is on a Valve Linux distro called Steam OS,
has a nice ring to it, don't you think.

That natively supports the game via Wine!

vladicaris

They force us to buy console ,PC game comes most ported ,with lot of problems almost.

Moon54

C14N wrote: »

Why does Valve want to switch to Linux in the first place? Clearly that is a huge task if they're going to completely go through with it and it will take a long time. Is it all so they can make a Steam box without needing to pay licensing to Microsoft?

Yes, exactly, in the long term the Windows tax has got to be a very real concern I'd say.

Especially with Microsoft (taking tips from Apple) now having a walled garden approach with Windows 8;
i.e. Windows store, forcing users to create MS a/c's (Win 8.1) and forcing SkyDrive on everyone etc.

Windows is not the open PC platform that it once was.

AlmightyCushion

Monotype wrote: »

What about steam for PS4? PS4 is already running a form of BSD which wouldn't be a huge step from linux. We know that they have ties with Sony and if Sony don't see them as a major threat, they might give it the go ahead if there's some mutual benefits... however, going the steambox route might be seen as an encroachment upon their territory.

I reckon that about 3 years time would be an excellent time to release a steam box. At present, both consoles are mediocre in the hardware world. 2/3 years would be early in the life of the console, but hardware which can double their performance or better could easily be available at a reasonable cost by then. I wouldn't like to go against them now - even if you can offer better performance, people will be looking closely at the prices.

I can't see that happening. Sony get a cut of every PS4 game sold and Valve get a cut of every Steam game sold. Sony won't let Valve sell or provide access to your steam library unless they get a cut and I can't see Valve giving them a cut. At best we'd see something like cross platform play between PS4 and Steam.

C14N wrote: »

That would actually probably get loads of people to install Linux, even if it was just a timed exclusive. It would hurt Valve's highly built-up goodwill though.

Why does Valve want to switch to Linux in the first place? Clearly that is a huge task if they're going to completely go through with it and it will take a long time. Is it all so they can make a Steam box without needing to pay licensing to Microsoft?

It would get a lot of people using Linux for Half Life but for how long? I'd dual boot to play HL3 but that's it. And the moment I was done with HL3 I'd be back using Windows. Plus, it would hurt sales big time. You, I and everyone here may know how to install Linux but not a lot of people do. Some of the ones that do may not bother with it.

Moon54 wrote: »

Yes, exactly, in the long term the Windows tax has got to be a very real concern I'd say.

Especially with Microsoft (taking tips from Apple) now having a walled garden approach with Windows 8;
i.e. Windows store, forcing users to create MS a/c's (Win 8.1) and forcing SkyDrive on everyone etc.

Windows is not the open PC platform that it once was.

Windows isn't a walled garden (RT is unless you jailbreak it). You get the Windows store but there is nothing stopping you from getting access to games and applications from other sources like Steam, Origin, Uplay etc. or just downloading it from what ever site you like.

You're not forced into using a Microsoft account in 8.1, you can still use a local account, it's just not as obvious and the option is hidden in 8.1. If you're not connected to the internet when setting up the computer it will give you a local option, you can also just hit next a couple of times when it asks for your email and it will give you the option. Even if you do set it up with a Microsoft account you can change it back afterwards. You're not forced to use Skydrive, it's just there. That's like saying you're forced to use WMP or notepad. You can just not use it.

The reason Valve are pushing Linux is because likely because the Microsoft store can threaten Steam and as we all know Valve make a lot of money from Steam. It wasn't long after the news of the Microsoft store came out that Gabe Newell started bashing Windows. If Microsoft choose to really go after Valve and Steam (they did just recruit one of the guys who developed Steam) then it could be bad news long term for Steam. Microsoft already have a good relationship with developers and publishers from Xbox. If Microsoft learn from the disaster that was G4WL and really put their weight behind this it could work and could make Windows/Windows store a good competitor to Steam. Even including things like achievements that affect your gamertag could be enough to entice people to buy the Windows version over the Steam version.

There is also the potential that in a future version of Windows that the only place to install and buy applications would be the Microsoft store. This is what really worries Gabe. If they do that and stick with it, it would be the end of Steam sooner or later. I can't see Microsoft doing it though. Seeing they have a monopoly, it would probably result in a load of lawsuits but even still if I was in Gabe's shoes I'd be looking to hedge my bets just to be on the safe side and pushing Linux is just that.

5uspect

5uspect wrote: »

The PS3 pretty much runs a UNIX variant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_system_software

Why not build a Steam distro just for Valve hardware and the necessary tools etc for game development. Gabe already talked about debuggers. Or extend the steam client for Linux to include a full system configuration for running games.
Existing games with low performance requirements (2D platformers etc) could be run on a VM or something while new games could be developed just like console games. Of course convincing developers to develop for a steam box/ steam configured Ubuntu would be a big issue.

The steam box software would still let you do whatever you want but would be preconfigured for steam gaming. Kinda like CAELinux.

I have a lot of games in my backlog that I would rather play with a controller on the sofa. Most of these are not very demanding games either.

SteamOS, called it!
http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/

C14N

Being able to Stream from Windows games will be a big help. Honestly, it would make a fellow debate whether getting a next gen console is worth it if he already has a decent Steam library.

I assume it only allows you to stream actual Steam-bought games though and not general PC games, so no luck if your games are on Origin or Uplay.

Dyr

Consider me underwhelmed, and not even a release date.

If the next announcement is a controller and the one after a steam box then they will be guilty of some serious dragging out.

C14N

Bambi wrote: »

Consider me underwhelmed, and not even a release date.

If the next announcement is a controller and the one after a steam box then they will be guilty of some serious dragging out.

Why? It sounds like a good idea and effectively gets around the problem of not being able to play games on Linux by letting you stream from your PC (presumably with much lower specs than the PC itself).

Dyr

C14N wrote: »

Why? It sounds like a good idea and effectively gets around the problem of not being able to play games on Linux by letting you stream from your PC (presumably with much lower specs than the PC itself).

It means they haven't figured out a way to run PC games natively in their linux OS (a big ask, fair enough). They moaned about windows but they're expecting the customer to run a windows PC to avail of the steam box. Stick a little burberry hat on gabe and make it available in DOTA :pac:



"Hundreds of great games are already running natively on SteamOS. Watch for announcements in the coming weeks about all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014. "

So they will have to rely on uptake from developers porting their games to steamOS aka linux to have any success, not really a game changer there.

C14N

Bambi wrote: »

"Hundreds of great games are already running natively on SteamOS. Watch for announcements in the coming weeks about all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014. "

So they will have to rely on uptake from developers porting their games to steamOS aka linux to have any success, not really a game changer there.

Well good point but it does sound like they've got more games ready to run on it than the 200 or so available now. They do say "Thousands of games" so I have to assume they have some fairly concrete plans to get a lot of this stuff ported.

Main thing is though, that if I can stream from a low-powered PC, I could basically spend €400-500 (price of an X1 or PS4) on a HTPC instead. Since I already have a gaming PC, I can now get a next-gen living room console that also lets me play loads of previous-gen games too, unlike the Sony and MS options where you're stuck waiting for a library to build up.

Tar.Aldarion

Well the big thing here is clout, most people I know won't even buy a game if it's not on steam any more, I can't remember the last time I have. I'd say it's a huge percentage for some companies. And valve are certainly putting in some effort with this. Everybody said they would fail going to Russia, now their second biggest market for some time, these boys know what they are up to, considering they have expanded by 50% every year, huge amount.

For now they let you stream your current library of windows games, then as time goes on more and more of these games will be native Stream OS games. Not an overnight thing.

Nollog

My main excitement about SteamOS is the TV& Movies thing, I'll actually legitimately buy movies and tv shows if it's similar to how steam manage games.

Also streaming from your main pc is a great idea, makes steambox a lot more attractive to people, as it can be super-cheap and still play the highest quality pc games if your main pc can.

Announcement 2 is probably a controller, and 3 the box.

Dyr

C14N wrote: »

Well good point but it does sound like they've got more games ready to run on it than the 200 or so available now. They do say "Thousands of games" so I have to assume they have some fairly concrete plans to get a lot of this stuff ported.

Main thing is though, that if I can stream from a low-powered PC, I could basically spend €400-500 (price of an X1 or PS4) on a HTPC instead. Since I already have a gaming PC, I can now get a next-gen living room console that also lets me play loads of previous-gen games too, unlike the Sony and MS options where you're stuck waiting for a library to build up.

What are you gonna use for a controller though? :P

the reason my PC isn't in the living room is because I don't like using game controllers when I have decent PC peripherals, unless they come up with the mother and father of all wireless controllers it's not going be much use to me and many other pc users.

plus 500 lids is too expensive for what is essentially an add on to a PC

They say they have hundreds of games with thousands available through streaming I think

They need to get the steam catalog playing natively on their OS, either through some heroic porting efforts or a WINE type solution. Knowing Gabe he'll leave it up to users to do the porting though :rolleyes:

Dyr

/\/ollog wrote: »

Announcement 2 is probably a controller, and 3 the box.

I suspect so, and its a dumb strategy to draw out announcing what is essentially the same product over a week

shruikan2553

It is an interesting idea. Personally I doubt I would use it because I dont have a TV thats bigger than my monitor. Still, when I do get tv it would be tempting to buy a small, cheap computer. Waiting for other 2 announcements before i make my mind up.

Antar Bolaeisk

Oh dear, they said "soon".

This of course can mean anything up to and beyond 9 years.

Tar.Aldarion

I doubt it will be a controller, the second one will be the steam box, it's literally a circle inside a box. The third looks like some new connectivity thing as well but imo it's be the source 2 engine. L4d3 showcase or something. bitta half life 3 concept

/\/ollog wrote: »

My main excitement about SteamOS is the TV& Movies thing, I'll actually legitimately buy movies and tv shows if it's similar to how steam manage games.

Also streaming from your main pc is a great idea, makes steambox a lot more attractive to people, as it can be super-cheap and still play the highest quality pc games if your main pc can.

Announcement 2 is probably a controller, and 3 the box.

I have a film in my steam library, love it, only way to get me to buy films.

AlmightyCushion

The big problem I have with a Steam OS is that the Steam client isn't exactly great. It can be pretty laggy, slow and unresponsive. For example, activating a steam code causes the whole client to lock up as it phones home to verify the code.

Cuddlesworth

Bambi wrote: »

"Hundreds of great games are already running natively on SteamOS. Watch for announcements in the coming weeks about all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014. "

So they will have to rely on uptake from developers porting their games to steamOS aka linux to have any success, not really a game changer there.

A quick glance at the Google play store shows plenty of titles coded for a Linux OS.

jumbobreakfast

I reckon with the likes of netflix and XBMC that when PC gamers decide to invest in a box for the living room, they will lean towards spending a bit more to get the extra features of a box running Steam, especially if it runs quiet. As for porting, they don't want to use Wine because that brings them back under Windows/Directx. Correct me if I'm wrong here but they want to port games to OpenGL to create a new option and create some competition. This is good for PC gaming whichever way you look at it.

I wonder if the Nvidia Shield experiment was greenlit thanks to Valve's move towards Steambox? They certainly worked closely together and the games streaming tech would be the same

Nollog

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

I reckon with the likes of netflix and XBMC that when PC gamers decide to invest in a box for the living room, they will lean towards spending a bit more to get the extra features of a box running Steam, especially if it runs quiet. As for porting, they don't want to use Wine because that brings them back under Windows/Directx. Correct me if I'm wrong here but they want to port games to OpenGL to create a new option and create some competition. This is good for PC gaming whichever way you look at it.

I wonder if the Nvidia Shield experiment was greenlit thanks to Valve's move towards Steambox? They certainly worked closely together and the games streaming tech would be the same

Why spend the extra money when you can just stream your games from your desktop in another room silently to your TV over LAN ?

Dyr

If you accept that Valves strategy isn't so much about getting steam into the living room as it is about getting steam OFF Windows and taking their customers and game developers with them then this announcement is really only a first tenuous step, they're having a trial separation from windows but they only have visitation rights to the customers. They want a divorce and sole custody of the customers and the PC game companies.

I don't see that as an easy thing to do and you can bet microsoft will take them on

nesf

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The big problem I have with a Steam OS is that the Steam client isn't exactly great. It can be pretty laggy, slow and unresponsive. For example, activating a steam code causes the whole client to lock up as it phones home to verify the code.

There has been many a time when I wished EA and Valve would swap clients.