Gabe Newell - PC/Linux gaming and Steambox

Sarky

You're the one making it sound like games never hang or crash on a console. They're about equal.

Goodshape

Thecageyone wrote: »

Much as I enjoy the odd game on PC ... I think PC only players don't get console gaming. It's not about the graphics. It's about not having to worry about games not installing properly, or crashing, or BSOD because you experienced a hardware issue you have to trawl through 100 menus to get at! It's about relaxing, slamming down on the sofa with a wireless controller and just having fun playing.

There's too much on the side with PC gaming, not to mention the expense. And then all the upgrading.

At the risk of being overly speculative and hoping for too much (technology rarely works out as well as it could) – I think this is where the official licensed 'Steam Machines' will come in.

PC gamers will largely continue as normal with the Steam app on their desktop. They already know all about upgrading, system specs, etc.

I actually think a lot of console gamers will "get it" too, but for the more casual types – they can pick up a Steam Machine with a spec rating of A (as opposed to B, C, etc.), and they'll know they can play games with that rating. Anyone with a clue can see that "A" just means an Nvidia this with an Intel that, or equivalent, but casual Joe only needs to care that his A game will work on his A console.


So it could end up the best of both worlds.

wes

Sarky wrote: »

You're the one making it sound like games never hang or crash on a console. They're about equal.

In fairness, with consoles, they are easier to just up and play a game. Having said that, with various updates etc we have seen with the last generation, this has changed a bit, and things have become a bit more complex, but still pretty easy.

As for the PC, well out of the last few games I got over a few months, I have had to tinker with them to get them to work properly. For example Rayman Legends, had woeful frame rate due to some random bug, and while I did find a solution handy enough, it was still a pain to have to go find it, as I just wanted to start playing the game, and had to go messing around with various things on my machine instead.

Genghiz Cohen

wes wrote: »

In fairness, with consoles, they are easier to just up and play a game. Having said that, with various updates etc we have seen with the last generation, this has changed a bit, and things have become a bit more complex, but still pretty easy.

As for the PC, well out of the last few games I got over a few months, I have had to tinker with them to get them to work properly. For example Rayman Legends, had woeful frame rate due to some random bug, and while I did find a solution handy enough, it was still a pain to have to go find it, as I just wanted to start playing the game, and had to go messing around with various things on my machine instead.

Can't say that I've had to do anything except install and play in recent memory.

I think DayZ was the last thing I actually put any effort into installing. Then DayZ Commander came along and automated that too.

nesf

Thecageyone wrote: »

Yes it has. Just look up Metro last light BSOD ... it happened to me only yesterday, and when I searched it, I found loads of posts on various forums across the net on the issue.

Name another game with the issue that you own. I'm curious about this serious threat to PC gaming that I haven't experienced with any of my games.

It sounds like to me that a developer ****ed up, released some buggy code, you got burned and now you're on a rant about PC gaming, because I've not been hearing about a spate of BSODs because of gaming in general and it's the kind of thing that you hear about in the gaming press when it's happening.


Also speaking as someone who games on both platforms, though admittedly more PC than XBox/WiiU.

nesf

wes wrote: »

In fairness, with consoles, they are easier to just up and play a game. Having said that, with various updates etc we have seen with the last generation, this has changed a bit, and things have become a bit more complex, but still pretty easy.

Yeah, right now the PC is nowhere near as friendly for just "open the new box, put the disc in, start playing within a minute or two."

wes wrote: »

As for the PC, well out of the last few games I got over a few months, I have had to tinker with them to get them to work properly. For example Rayman Legends, had woeful frame rate due to some random bug, and while I did find a solution handy enough, it was still a pain to have to go find it, as I just wanted to start playing the game, and had to go messing around with various things on my machine instead.

Interesting, I got Rayman Legends for my son and have it running on a laptop that's really not designed with gaming in mind and it runs away fine and happy. I don't remember the last time I had to go fiddling around with settings outside of a game to get it to run well on my gaming pc. I have had to mess around with laptops though, downtuning GPUs and such because of heat issues.

Varik

Don't see the incentive for developers, it's not like they'll still be making a windows version in addition.

Magill

Thecageyone wrote: »

Much as I enjoy the odd game on PC ... I think PC only players don't get console gaming. It's not about the graphics. It's about not having to worry about games not installing properly, or crashing, or BSOD because you experienced a hardware issue you have to trawl through 100 menus to get at! It's about relaxing, slamming down on the sofa with a wireless controller and just having fun playing.

I've literally got about 150 games on steam over the past 2 years, and i can count on one hand how many times i've had BSOD/Installation issues. My PS3 on the other hand used to crash multiple times in one session sometimes.. hell even CoD which is suppose to be the poster boy of tight coding and excellence on console used to crash a **** ton.

I get why a person would prefer console gaming, but these are not really issues for the PC anymore, unless you've got old hardware. If someone can't work out how to install a game on steam, im suprised they know how turn their PC on to begin with.

The current consoles areabout 8 years old now. Yet still run the latest games without ANY issues. What's not to like about that? So what if the graphics aren't quite as sharp. You don't have to tweak anything to get it right, and everyone is on e a level.

Yep, this is true.. i dont know too many people with launch consoles that still work tho.

PC gaming can be so obnoxiously elite. I'd heard of people just give up gaming because of bullying on the likes of Battlefield or COD online. How sad is that in general? I know that's a whole nother debate there, but I was only reading somewhere about that yesterday.

Are you suggesting that the CoD and BF3 community is more toxic on the PC than on console ? lol come on now.

This steam thing .. .not sure on it. I'm doubting they'll offer any stand alone for cheap that would rival current high spec PCs

Tbh, i think the big thing about this all is the steamOS tbh. Hopefully I have a job by the time it comes out so i can build me some custom steam boxes !

nesf wrote: »

Yeah, right now the PC is nowhere near as friendly for just "open the new box, put the disc in, start playing within a minute or two."

I dunno, i think "Right click, Install, play" is pretty close tbh !

Genghiz Cohen

Varik wrote: »

Don't see the incentive for developers, it's not like they'll still be making a windows version in addition.

There is none, yet.
But if say, 5 million people own a SteamBox and want to play games, there is an incentive right there.

Genghiz Cohen

nesf wrote: »

Yeah, right now the PC is nowhere near as friendly for just "open the new box, put the disc in, start playing within a minute or two."

GTA 5 Beta has a mandatory 8GB install.

Goodshape

nesf wrote: »

Yeah, right now the PC is nowhere near as friendly for just "open the new box, put the disc in, start playing within a minute or two."

Which is why they're making Steam Machines.

Varik wrote: »

Don't see the incentive for developers, it's not like they'll still be making a windows version in addition.

The incentive is you're not making a game compatible with an XBox or a PlayStation or a PC, and you're not dealing with rigid console distribution channels. Instead you go through Steam and your game's available to PC's, consoles, handhelds, the lot.

Also gives developers a clearer set of specification to build towards with regards PC gaming. "Steam Machine – A" is a defined and specific specification. Consumer either buys a retail "Steam Machine – A" or makes sure their custom rig is compatible with it. Cuts down on the will-it-run mystery on both sides.

Sarky

I tried Big Picture last night for a while, and have to say I quite liked it. I mean, if I'm sitting at a computer I'd probably keep using the regular Steam interface, but if I was sat down by a telly with a controller, it'd be at least as intuitive as the XBox user interface, with more interesting (to me, anyway) options for categorisation and customisation.

The more I read about SteamOS/Steam machines, the more interesting they seem.

wes

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Can't say that I've had to do anything except install and play in recent memory.

In fairness most of my games do work more less properly out of the box, but still a few require some kind of tinkering to get working right.

wes

nesf wrote: »

Interesting, I got Rayman Legends for my son and have it running on a laptop that's really not designed with gaming in mind and it runs away fine and happy. I don't remember the last time I had to go fiddling around with settings outside of a game to get it to run well on my gaming pc. I have had to mess around with laptops though, downtuning GPUs and such because of heat issues.

Oh, once I found a fix, the game runs just fine. It was only an issue for some people, but seem widespread enough on the steam forums.

Thecageyone

Sarky wrote: »

You're the one making it sound like games never hang or crash on a console. They're about equal.

It's funny that you only need mention pc issues and people get bothered. I didn't make out anything. I go by my own experience first of all, and then those I know personally, then what I read about online.

The fact is, end of the day, that consoles are much more relaxed and easier get into. You don't have to worry about upgrading your hardware for certain new games, everything is done for you.

Thecageyone

nesf wrote: »

Name another game with the issue that you own. I'm curious about this serious threat to PC gaming that I haven't experienced with any of my games.

It sounds like to me that a developer ****ed up, released some buggy code, you got burned and now you're on a rant about PC gaming, because I've not been hearing about a spate of BSODs because of gaming in general and it's the kind of thing that you hear about in the gaming press when it's happening.


Also speaking as someone who games on both platforms, though admittedly more PC than XBox/WiiU.

What are you on about? threat to PC gaming?? you don't half twist words!

Why so defensive? Does any of this affect you personally?

You don't need me to tell you the issues people have with PCs. What with viruses, hardware crashes, overheating ... etc ... and very often newer games have people tweaking and testing and re-tweaking to get them to run smoothly. Unless they have very expensive set ups.

Jonny7

Thecageyone wrote: »

You don't need me to tell you the issues people have with PCs. What with viruses, hardware crashes, overheating ... etc ... and very often newer games have people tweaking and testing and re-tweaking to get them to run smoothly. Unless they have very expensive set ups.

Consoles are a single platform with one basic specification each

PC's have literally thousands/millions of combinations of specs

Apples and Oranges really..

Both have their own advantages and disadvantages when it comes to gaming

Thecageyone

Yeah, and most people have a PC/laptop at home. We're not talking overall though, just re gaming. I have a fairly powerful laptop because I do photography, and use power hungry programs like Photoshop and Lightroom. I couldn't do without a PC of some sort. But for gaming, I think personally, that consoles are more relaxed and fun.

Varik

Goodshape wrote: »

The incentive is you're not making a game compatible with an XBox or a PlayStation or a PC, and you're not dealing with rigid console distribution channels. Instead you go through Steam and your game's available to PC's, consoles, handhelds, the lot.

You're away with the fairies, this is extra work on their part for little return.

So you're saying the incentive is to release exclusively to steam OS so you don't deal with the consoles or any directX/windows, and this is made up by the HUGE population who'll have one of the new steam compatible products.

stevenmu

2.5 hours to the next announcement.

I'm guessing that it will be a game engine, presumably Source 2, that will be cross platform and support at least Windows and SteamOS (possibly MacOS and consoles too). Along with a tool set for creating cross platform games.

I'm also guessing there'll be a demo video or possibly just screenshots, and that there won't be an actual "Half Life 3 Confirmed", but a very strong hint in a video/screen shot, or possibly something leading to an ARG.

Tar.Aldarion

It's gonna be a gamepad, with the a new game engine running on it :cool:

Magill

Thecageyone wrote: »

It's funny that you only need mention pc issues and people get bothered. I didn't make out anything. I go by my own experience first of all, and then those I know personally, then what I read about online.

The fact is, end of the day, that consoles are much more relaxed and easier get into. You don't have to worry about upgrading your hardware for certain new games, everything is done for you.

What do you mean relaxed ? lol, does your xbox smoke weed or something ? I don't get where you are coming from... Do you mean technophobes find it more relaxing to use or something ?

The whole "upgrading your hardware" argument always irks me. Yes.. you might want to upgrade your hardware every 3-5 years.. if you want to play on high settings and double or higher the resolution of console with much better frame rates etc... people always forget when presenting this point that the majority of people own a computer anyway...how old is your laptop ? Did you keep your last one for 6/7 years ? do you not also upgrade it as regularly as someone who games on their computer ? I don't know of many people who manage to keep their laptops for more than a couple of years. So you could argue that you're probably saving money being an exclusive PC gamer.


And whats to worry about... i LOVE when i get to upgrade my pc tbh ! Its the best ! Console only gamers get that "OH SHINEY" feeling once a generation.. i get it twice or more, depending on the monies !

Cuddlesworth

Jonny7 wrote: »

Consoles are a single platform with one basic specification each

PC's have literally thousands/millions of combinations of specs

Apples and Oranges really..

Both have their own advantages and disadvantages when it comes to gaming

When you get down to it in terms of drivers and OS interaction, PC's don't have that many combinations.

Chip generations are the same underneath, they react the same way as each other and use the same drivers. They just have different cores/speeds. I think we are at about 5 or 6 since the xbox and ps3 came out.

The same for the chipsets.

The same for graphics cards, with I think around 8 generations total since the release of the original consoles(across both gaming card makers).

Audio cards are pretty much limited to a handful of mainstream chips nowdays.

In reality, PC's are nowhere near as varied as you would want to believe.

Both the PS3 and Xbox have gone through chipset/cpu revisions during that time as well. In their case, its reducing the die to allow for greater volumes. In the pc sense its reducing the die to allow for greater speeds/cores.

Magill

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

It's gonna be a gamepad, with the a new game engine running on it :cool:

Yeah... we can dream !

Goodshape

Varik wrote: »

You're away with the fairies, this is extra work on their part for little return.

You guys are missing the woods for the trees.


Steam Machines are consoles. They are consoles that will run SteamOS.

If you want a game console experience without the hassle of PC upgrades and compatibility questions, then buy a Steam Machine. Buy games marked compatible. You're done.

But steamOS, for all intents and purposes, is the same as the Steam application you're running now on your PC. And the OS itself is free to download and install (should you want to) on any setup you care to build.


As a game developer, if all works out for Valve, you're now making one game, optimised for one system/specification, releasing it once, and available everywhere.

As a gamer, same thing in reverse. I can choose the hardware setup that suits me and not worry about exclusives to one or other manufacturer, or losing my entire collection with a €500+ upgrade.

C14N

Thecageyone wrote: »

You don't have to worry about upgrading your hardware for certain new games, everything is done for you.

Really? I own a PS3, do I not need to ever upgrade that to play certain games? What if I want to play Knack or Killzone Shadowfall this Christmas?

nesf

Thecageyone wrote: »

What are you on about? threat to PC gaming?? you don't half twist words!

Why so defensive? Does any of this affect you personally?

You don't need me to tell you the issues people have with PCs. What with viruses, hardware crashes, overheating ... etc ... and very often newer games have people tweaking and testing and re-tweaking to get them to run smoothly. Unless they have very expensive set ups.

If BSODs were common with PC games this would be a serious threat to PC gaming no? I mean really, none of us would put up with that for long. I'm not twisting your words, just following it to the logical conclusion.

If you're complaining about trying to run newer games on old hardware or laptops never meant for gaming, sorry, but that's like complaining you can't run XBoX 360 games on the original XBox and complaining you have to buy a new one to do so. PC gaming is expensive, especially if you want the best graphics on a big monitor with every game that comes out, that is the usual big warning I give people who are considering getting into PC gaming, everything else you mention isn't a problem that can't be avoided by either care been taken on the internet and with protective software (viruses and other malware), buying a PC meant for the job you want it to do (overheating) or not trying to stretch hardware beyond its limits (trying to get old machine to run very demanding games). Depending on your definition of very expensive, you don't need to spend a fortune to get a PC that comfortably runs everything out right now. Yes, if you want BF4 on Ultra on a proper 30" monitor, that will be expensive, but getting running on medium graphics should be doable fairly cheaply.

nesf

Actually, let me be clear, PC gaming has some serious problems, but what amazes me is that pretty much nothing you're mentioning is one of them. Most of the issues come from:

1) Drivers have to be managed manually. This does not mix well with people who don't get that. Consoles handle all this automatically. Though to be fair, Steam games patch automatically.

2) People confuse PC with Gaming PC and buy hardware completely unsuitable for the task they are planning. An XBox is an XBox. It's hard to screw this one up.

3) People don't know the specs of their hardware, so they end up buying games they can't run properly. You just need to know the name of your console, or even just its logo/symbol/colour of the game boxes.

4) No second-hand games market means bargain hunters have to wait for Steam sales or GreenManGaming etc to discount games.

5) No, or limited, sharing of games. This is a biggie compared to current generation consoles.

6) Many console ports to PC are hack jobs and very poorly done and many games are never ported even when they're not exclusives.

7) People get ripped off by PC World and other sellers of pre-built machines aimed at the gaming market. It's improved in recent years but it's still possible to be left seriously screwed over here. Consoles are one price everywhere.

8) Microsoft make Windows, they make the XBox, they'd prefer you to game on the XBox, Microsoft published games often don't get released on PC in a timely fashion.

I could go on.

Genghiz Cohen

C14N wrote: »

Really? I own a PS3, do I not need to ever upgrade that to play certain games? What if I want to play Knack or Killzone Shadowfall this Christmas?

Thats a hefty update cost too :P

Jonny7

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

When you get down to it in terms of drivers and OS interaction, PC's don't have that many combinations.

PC's have millions of combinations, probably billions - I'm speaking literally here