Expectations Under Joe [MOD WARNING POST #1]

danthefan

bilston wrote: »

I was in that corner where Hickie scored, my then g/f now wife and I were soaked to the bone, no more than 10 metres from Hickie as he scored. That first 40 minutes of rugby in those conditions was absolutely superb. I remember the team getting an incredible reception as they left the pitch at half time. Great moments those.

From about the Scottish match in 2000 through to the Italy game in the 2007 6Ns, when we missed out on the title by late French try against Scotland, was a high point for the Ireland team in terms of entertaining rugby. After that it went pear shaped with the obvious exception of 2009.

We played very little entertaining rugby in 2009 either apart from the France game tbf but we won so you can forgive that.

former legend

bilston wrote: »

From about the Scottish match in 2000 through to the Italy game in the 2007 6Ns, when we missed out on the title by late French try against Scotland, was a high point for the Ireland team in terms of entertaining rugby. After that it went pear shaped with the obvious exception of 2009.

I was at that game and it really felt like we had turned a corner, possibly because we had been annihilated by England the previous week and were looking for something to cling to, but there really was a great buzz around the ground. Ireland scoring 40 points in a 6N game was the stuff of dreams back then and in hindsight, the next 5-6 years were a real golden age.

After that it went pear shaped with the obvious exception of 2009

Welll not really. 2009 was pretty grim in terms of entertaining rugby, with the exception of the France game. The only difference was that we were winning.

It's all very rose-tinted obviously but I was far more excited about the Triple Crown in 2004 than I was about the GS in 2009.

boredatwork82

I expect consistent performances at a high standard. If we achieve this we should be top 4 nation in the world. I expect us to be in the shake up at the top of the table at every six nations. Not necessarily winning grand slam every year. I expect at a minimum a world cup semi final spot .

I believe that is the only acceptable level of expectation. Any lower expectations are not doing justice to the quality of players all the provinces are now producing.

thomond2006

Let's not be ****e to watch and go from there.

Bogota

danthefan wrote: »

We played very little entertaining rugby in 2009 either apart from the France game tbf but we won so you can forgive that.

I remember watching Ireland play in 2009 and thinking we were absolutely awful and being thankful that the opposition were so poor in that years 6N. We literally scrapped over the line against England and Wales and came very close to drawing with Scotland. As previously mentioned, only against France were we in anyway good. And that will be the legacy of Kidney - the crippingly inconsistency. The glimmers of what the best generation of rugby players Ireland has ever produced were actually capable of if there had been a competent coach in charge. One 6N during Kidney's tenure is such a poor return. As is going out so meekly in the QF to that Welsh team (with the players we had and the QF and SF opponents that was our best ever chance to reach a WC final).

No other coach ever had it as easy as Kidney did, inheriting a team that came inches from winning the GS the year before playing champagne rugby and with 3 of the next 4 HC winners being made up of an Irish province. The stagnation and regression however was shocking. It was a truly awful period in Irish rugby.

.ak

Bogota wrote: »

I remember watching Ireland play in 2009 and thinking we were absolutely awful and being thankful that the opposition were so poor in that years 6N. We literally scrapped over the line against England and Wales and came very close to drawing with Scotland. As previously mentioned, only against France were we in anyway good. And that will be the legacy of Kidney - the crippingly inconsistency. The glimmers of what the best generation of rugby players Ireland has ever produced were actually capable of if there had been a competent coach in charge. One 6N during Kidney's tenure is such a poor return. As is going out so meekly in the QF to that Welsh team (with the players we had and the QF and SF opponents that was our best ever chance to reach a WC final).

No other coach ever had it as easy as Kidney did, inheriting a team that came inches from winning the GS the year before playing champagne rugby and with 3 of the next 4 HC winners being made up of an Irish province. The stagnation and regression however was shocking. It was a truly awful period in Irish rugby.

There's been several warnings in the thread already - enough about Kidney.

I'll add awec's warning to the first post - after that no excuses, next person to bring up Kidney as a subject will receive infractions.

brinty

A grand slam and nothing less.
We have the coach everyone wanted out out....
We have the coach everyone wanted in in....
We'll have the team that everyone wants picked i.e. majority (at least 10) Leinster players
We'll have a team playing the style of rugby everyone wants to see i.e fast off loading direct
It's BOD's last year and the only fitting way to send him off...
All we'll be short is playing in blue....

Swiwi.

brinty wrote: »

A grand slam and nothing less.
We have the coach everyone wanted out out....
We have the coach everyone wanted in in....
We'll have the team that everyone wants picked i.e. majority (at least 10) Leinster players
We'll have a team playing the style of rugby everyone wants to see i.e fast off loading direct
It's BOD's last year and the only fitting way to send him off...
All we'll be short is playing in blue....

What I want is what joe feels is the best 15 to do Ireland proud. If that means 15 Connacht players so be it.

Buer

brinty wrote: »

A grand slam and nothing less.
We have the coach everyone wanted out out....
We have the coach everyone wanted in in....
We'll have the team that everyone wants picked i.e. majority (at least 10) Leinster players
We'll have a team playing the style of rugby everyone wants to see i.e fast off loading direct
It's BOD's last year and the only fitting way to send him off...
All we'll be short is playing in blue....

I'll eat my hat if there are 10 Leinster players in the first selection.

Best, POC, Ryan, POM, Murray, Sexton, Marshall, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, Earls....

Up to 9 of those guys could well start.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if there are 10 Leinster players in the first selection.

Best, POC, Ryan, POM, Murray, Sexton, Marshall, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, Earls....

Up to 9 of those guys could well start.

I was genuinely about to post that Sexton was a Leinster player and you're clearly losing it.

Now I'm sad.

But in general I agree. There are plenty of players at the other provinces that could play the "Leinster" style of game anyway - though I do think players with certain deficiencies that have been let go might struggle somewhat to get into the team.

OldRio

All i want is to watch Ireland with a smile on my face.
To enjoy.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if there are 10 Leinster players in the first selection.

Best, POC, Ryan, POM, Murray, Sexton, Marshall, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, Earls....

Up to 9 of those guys could well start.

I was thinking about this earlier in terms of the Samoa game, but will Joe want his strongest team to try and give himself the best chance possible of winning his first game as coach against a very good Samoan side or will he want to throw one or two curve ball selections in given our next two matches are against Australia and NZ and some players may need managed.

I'm thinking particularly about 10 and 13 with Sexton and BOD. Probably Madigan or maybe Keatley or Jackson depending on form at the time could get a run at 10 with someone else coming in at 13, would love it to be Olding but he hasn't played there yet for Ulster so more likely Earls or McFadden.

Also there is maybe the possibility of throwing a relatively new face into the pack (Henderson or Kilcoyne). Not saying those guys will start against Australia or NZ mind. I don't think two or three selections like that would weaken us massively against Samoa.

armchaircoach

This is what I'm hoping for, and most of these will be the opposite of a recent coach who will not be named

1) A coherent and specific tactical plan to deal with the oppositions strengths and attack their weaknesses, while making the most of our strengths. This will change from game to game in response to different teams/weather conditions/injuries, and will not just be based on "get a few points ahead and try to heroicly defend for the rest of the game."

2) A team sheet picked with the above tactics in mind. I do not want to see a golden 15 that automatically appear on the team sheet. Players will be picked on form as well as taking into account how we wish to play. This will involve rotation of types of winger/flankers/halfbacks.

3) Flexibility = This has been one of the most infuriating aspects of watching Ireland over the last few years. You can pretty much tell after 10 min whether the tactics are working, and there was rarely a change during the game to correct them if they weren't. The options was "plan A isn't working, try plan A harder". Joe has proved over the last few years with Leinster that he is capable of changing tack at halftime and thinking on his feet.

4) Subs will be utilsed to have a tactical effect on the game, not just as a predictable outhalf switch on 63 min and as cover for injuries to the main team. See point 1, subs under joe will hopefully be used to kill off the opposition in the second half.

5) A team playing with confidence, and fans watching with confidence.

6) Never again having to hear the most repeated bulls**t mantra of rugby boards "Don't judge the coach until after this next set of games" followed by lists of excuses, wash, rinse and repeat.

All in all I'm looking forward to the next few years, we have a great mix of players, and we have some good young talent pushing through. 2nd twice in the 6 nations, 2/3 for this autumn series and semi final of the world cup.

Buer

I think we have the players to make several changes to the team between Australia and Samoa without damaging the side too much. We certainly need to pay Samoa sufficient respect but I think there are a good number of positions where the replacement is of sufficient standard to get the job done. Strauss for Best, Kilcoyne for Healy, McCarthy for Ryan or vice versa, Henry for POM, D'Arcy for Marshall or vice versa and a few changes in the back three given our options.

I don't think we've players at 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 13 that can come close to the players that currently occupy those spots. 13 is obviously the problem spot but, to be honest, I feel Payne is the man for the job and until he's available, I think we'll be just wasting our time looking at others there. Potentially, an Olding/Marshall combination could be the solution but that will need to get a decent run at provincial level.

Rightwing

Podge_irl wrote: »

I was genuinely about to post that Sexton was a Leinster player and you're clearly losing it.

Now I'm sad.

But in general I agree. There are plenty of players at the other provinces that could play the "Leinster" style of game anyway - though I do think players with certain deficiencies that have been let go might struggle somewhat to get into the team.

It doesn't really matter where the players play, so long as we win. If there were no munster players, and we got a few grand slams, that would do me fine.

OldRio

Rightwing wrote: »

It doesn't really matter where the players play, so long as we win. If there were no munster players, and we got a few grand slams, that would do me fine.

I would take one or two losses or more as long as we utilise our players to the best of their abilities.

LuckyLloyd

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Sure don't give us your own opinion anyway....

I did give you my opinion. Two reigns in succession where we've had some good runs (with bounces here and there dictating whether they were great rather than good) before stagnation and the coach being held up as the ultimate root of all evil. Kidney was the truth and light in 2008 don't forget. The playing pool isn't good enough; isn't deep enough to keep the winner chasers at bay over the LONG haul.

I'm sure Joe will get a response - the two coaches before him did. His message will wane though, the squad will require overhaul and he'll be out on his arse eventually. Sunrise, sunset.

Rightwing

OldRio wrote: »

I would take one or two losses or more as long as we utilise our players to the best of their abilities.

That's where fan's expectations differ. I'd happily settle for 10 man rugby so long as it's winning rugby. Neither is wrong.

mfceiling

Might be nice not to see DOC doing windmills at the pitch side!!

Also subs coming on with 90 seconds left to play...

OldRio

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I did give you my opinion. Two reigns in succession where we've had some good runs (with bounces here and there dictating whether they were great rather than good) before stagnation and the coach being held up as the ultimate root of all evil. Kidney was the truth and light in 2008 don't forget. The playing pool isn't good enough; isn't deep enough to keep the winner chasers at bay over the LONG haul.

I'm sure Joe will get a response - the two coaches before him did. His message will wane though, the squad will require overhaul and he'll be out on his arse eventually. Sunrise, sunset.

Always look on the bright side of life (whistle)
Always look on the light side of life (whistle)
If life seems jolly rotten
There's something you've forgotten
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I did give you my opinion. Two reigns in succession where we've had some good runs (with bounces here and there dictating whether they were great rather than good) before stagnation and the coach being held up as the ultimate root of all evil. Kidney was the truth and light in 2008 don't forget. The playing pool isn't good enough; isn't deep enough to keep the winner chasers at bay over the LONG haul.

I'm sure Joe will get a response - the two coaches before him did. His message will wane though, the squad will require overhaul and he'll be out on his arse eventually. Sunrise, sunset.

This is absolute nonsense really.

We have at the moment just as much depth (More I'd argue) in most positions as England, Wales yet we continually under-perform compared to them

Of course now you'll trot out the line that I'm simply overrating Irish players. But that doesn't hold water either. It says a lot that Ireland had the second highest contingent of Lions even after finishing second last in the six nations. A stat that's even more impressive when you consider that most of England's contingent was made up of front rows

I'm not saying we should be winning a grandslam every year but we have just as much a right to expect to win as many as Wales and England and saying we don't have the players is nothing but a cop out. Thankfully we're not in the position that the soccer lads find themselves in

also, when did we have a "good run" under Kidney after 2009?

FrannoFan

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

This is absolute nonsense really.

We have at the moment just as much depth (More I'd argue) in most positions as England, Wales yet we continually under-perform compared to them

Of course now you'll trot out the line that I'm simply overrating Irish players. But that doesn't hold water either. It says a lot that Ireland had the second highest contingent of Lions even after finishing second last in the six nations. A stat that's even more impressive when you consider that most of England's contingent was made up of front rows

I'm not saying we should be winning a grandslam every year but we have just as much a right to expect to win as many as Wales and England and saying we don't have the players is nothing but a cop out. Thankfully we're not in the position that the soccer lads find themselves in




also, when did we have a "good run" under Kidney after 2009?

you have to think of where we are lacking depth though. Scrum half and tight head. hard to get overly optimistic when you look at our second string.

McGrath
Cronin
????
Toner
Macarthy
Henry
McGloughlin
Coughlan

Boss
Madigan

D.Kearney
McFadden
Cave
Earls

morris

not exactly a team to challenge in a six nations

*just threw that 15 together to make a point-not the best 2nd 15 we have but tight head and 9's are poor replacements

Grimebox

Honestly, I'm expecting more of the same results we had recently. We will lose to both Aus and NZ without much trouble.

The Irish team does not play together enough to develop a squad like Schmidt did with Leinster. Almost every game is a must-win game so the expectation is to put out the strongest team. That is why Kidney and EoS couldn't develop depth in their squad imo. Hopefully gameplan will improve but I am not expecting any magic within the coming year.

I expect Schmidt to become a villain just like the other Ireland coaches did, in 5 years or so. I like that we collectively have high expectations of our Rugby nation, but I think those expectations are delusional at times. We are consistently under-performing. You have to eventually begin to think maybe we are performing exactly as we should be; as a second tier rugby team.

Buer

Grimebox wrote: »

Honestly, I'm expecting more of the same results we had recently. We will lose to both Aus and NZ without much trouble.

The Irish team does not play together enough to develop a squad like Schmidt did with Leinster. Almost every game is a must-win game so the expectation is to put out the strongest team. That is why Kidney and EoS couldn't develop depth in their squad imo. Hopefully gameplan will improve but I am not expecting any magic within the coming year.

I expect Schmidt to become a villain just like the other Ireland coaches did, in 5 years or so. I like that we collectively have high expectations of our Rugby nation, but I think those expectations are delusional at times. We are consistently under-performing. You have to eventually begin to think maybe we are performing exactly as we should be; as a second tier rugby team.

Remind me never to be trapped in a room with you and a cyanide pill.

Grimebox

Buer wrote: »

Remind me never to be trapped in a room with you and a cyanide pill.

I know, I know.... I've become so sceptical of Irish Rugby after having so many matches being built up just to be let down

.ak

FrannoFan wrote: »

you have to think of where we are lacking depth though. Scrum half and tight head. hard to get overly optimistic when you look at our second string.

McGrath
Cronin
????
Toner
Macarthy
Henry
McGloughlin
Coughlan

Boss
Madigan

D.Kearney
McFadden
Cave
Earls

morris

not exactly a team to challenge in a six nations

*just threw that 15 together to make a point-not the best 2nd 15 we have but tight head and 9's are poor replacements

In fairness I reckon if I picked the 2nd choice player for every other 6N team it'd look equally as dire. The pierced level of depth some teams have is all myth. With the exception of NZ I don't think any team in the world could put out their 2nds and compete with another top nation.

Foxtrol

FrannoFan wrote: »

*just threw that 15 together to make a point-not the best 2nd 15 we have but tight head and 9's are poor replacements

I'd wager in 2/3 years time TH and 9 will be a position of strength. Potentially a lot of talent coming through in those positions like LH and 10 were seen as worrying areas previously but now we have a lot more depth, who are all on an upward trajectory.

I think the last generation of Irish players was a ‘golden generation’ for Ireland when looking to the past but the one that’s coming through now will have much more quality and strength in depth. No need for the pessimism.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Grimebox wrote: »

Honestly, I'm expecting more of the same results we had recently. We will lose to both Aus and NZ without much trouble.

Australia are nowhere near the force they once were. We really should be beating them at home consistently

thomond2006

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Australia are nowhere near the force they once were. We really should be beating them at home consistently

If we can't beat an Australia team in end of season mode with injuries in the backline then I'd be very concerned.

Bogota

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Australia are nowhere near the force they once were. We really should be beating them at home consistently

Not the same proposition under a new coach. While the Leinster and to a lesser extent Ulster lads will be well used to Schmidt's sort of playing style I can see some bedding in for the Munster and Connacht lads.

I don't think it will be the walk-over you insist. I won't begrudge a defeat if the team shows its attempting to play a Schmidt style game.