A boat full of carbs

AstraMonti

duffyshuffle wrote: »

Were you doing the course to try learn about higher fat etc or what?

I 've taken a general interest about nutrition the last few months and thought that this course would be good enough coming from a reputable university. Unfortunately they didn't even took time to deviate from what the US nutrition charts are saying, even to the point calling a low carb diet a fad.

AstraMonti

As for myself I haven't done much the last 3 weeks, my wrist is still not 100% there for gym, I have a chest infection so I can't go out on the bike and the diet the last week went to hell as I had friends visiting over... I don't like february so far

duffyshuffle

AstraMonti wrote: »

I 've taken a general interest about nutrition the last few months and thought that this course would be good enough coming from a reputable university. Unfortunately they didn't even took time to deviate from what the US nutrition charts are saying, even to the point calling a low carb diet a fad.

I was looking around at doing something too on nutrition, where you doing it? Will have to chalk that one off the list by the sounds of things!

ford2600

Breakfast before a 200km audax. An apple and a few nuts at 160km got me around without any hunger on bike

niceonetom

AstraMonti wrote: »

Tom please keep the reports coming, very interesting stuff.

Well, you asked for it. The weekend gone was my second bout of LCHF racing.

I'd done fine on it a couple of weeks ago but the Ned Flannigan was less than 60km so, even with riding another 60km home after, the evidence for bacon superiority was inconclusive at least as far as longer races goes. Maybe there is a limit to this oddball fuelling strategy and I just hadn't hit it yet.

So last Saturday I did the Mick Lally Memorial, ~85km around the Dorey's Forge circuit. I had basically the same breakfast as last time - bacon and a 4 egg omelette and coffee with coconut oil. If anything I tried to be even more fastidiously low-carb than I would on any other day - there is the argument that even a small insulin response, say to fruit, could be enough to interfere with fat metaboism while not providing enough carbs to make up the difference. That would be bad. Also, sticking to pure fat and protein would make for a more conclusive test.

Long story short: the racing went grand. The fast people went up the road on the first lap leaving the rest of us to shadow box. I mostly sat in other than jumping across to a couple of moves I thought might go but I didn't instigate any moves myself. Overly timid I admit. When it came to the final no one was really sure exactly how many were up the road or how many (if any) were A2 - were there any placing left to compete for? Sure it was worth giving it a lash just to be on the safe side. I found myself feeling better and better as the finish approached and did enough to go home with an envelope - not a important one - but beggars, choosers, etc.

Sunday would be a sterner test. 120km around Navan at the Cycleways Cup. It's a tougher circuit than Dorey's and 50% longer again. 3 hours of racing. I had basically the same breakfast though the race was later in the day so I found myself wondering if maybe just natural, non-race-related, hunger might pop up. As it happened it didn't. I was too busy. The race followed a similar pattern: the fast, aggressive, ambitious people forced the decisive selection on the first lap and the rest of us tried to hide our shame. I followed the wheels and came in anonymously with the bunch. But I felt good. I didn't feel especially tired or sore and hadn't seriously considered eating any of the food I'd been carrying as get-out-of-jail option should fat say no more. By the time I was in the car home it was 4 o'clock and I hadn't eaten since brekkie. That's fairly unthinkable to most carb-centric racers.

So there you go, 200+km of low-carb racing over the weekend. Looking at my garmin data for both races it's clear that I was indeed pretty comfortable thoughout (ie. should have raced more aggressively). That could be read in a few ways though - either these races (at least for those not in the break) were simply not intense enough for long enough to really force me to switch to muscle glycogen, run out of it and bonk or training on fat all winter has moved my fat:glycogen fuel mix far enough to race on. Time will tell.

Provisos:
-On Friday I had a moment of weakness and had some tea-brack. You could call this carbloading and say the weekend after it is therefore null as a LCHF experiment. But I wouldn't.

-Immediately after both races I had a recovery milk shake thing that had quite a lot of sugar. This low-carb not no-carb living and from experiment I have found that inducing an insulin response after training does indeed help recovery. I didn't want to turn up in Navan with wooden legs. Other than these shakes and a bit of 85% choc my diet on both days was pretty LCHF compliant.

-I have trained harder and in a less random fashion recently so, while my diet is quite different from previous years, so is my physical condition. It might be possible to ascribe any changes to training rather than bacon. But I wouldn't.

Today I feel ok too actually. A bit tired of course but by no means wiped out. I'm looking at the fine weather (after freezing my arse off yesterday in Navan) and slightly wishing I was on the bike - that's not always the case after a two-race weekend.

ROK ON

Tom

Given the data points that you are accumulating in terms of the lifestyle do you gave enough to conclude that you could do a stage race such as Ras Mumhan or Ulster and potentially a longer stage race on such a fueling strategy?

Also on Sar evening did you remain lchf in terms of your evening meal?

niceonetom

I should have added at least one more proviso that's occurred to me since: I had some High5 in one of the bottles on the bike. Each race I drank about half of it - 500ml total with about 40g of CHO. I don't think that's enough CHO to be significant in terms of calories but it might be enough to trigger than fat-metabolism-killing insulin response so I know that I'm potentially contradicting myself here, but it also occurs to me that by occasionally sipping on something sweet after the first hour of racing Imight be triggering the proposed endurance enhancing effect of mouth rinsing with CHO. I'm only speculating and I did swallow it.

ROK ON wrote: »

...do you gave enough to conclude that you could do a stage race such as Ras Mumhan or Ulster and potentially a longer stage race on such a fueling strategy?

No, but I can't conclude that I couldn't either. I've never done either of those races with or without carbs so I've no baseline for comparison. I keep expecting to butt up against some performance wall that I can solidly attribute to this diet but as yet it hasn't happened. It feels like any shortcomings on the bike are much more obviously explained to lack of top-end training, but that will come. In terms of endurance and aerobic power I feel like I'm going at least as well as I would with unlimited pancakes and feeling better in many ways. I'll be doing 3 days of racing over Paddy's weekend and if that goes to plan Rás Mumhan after. I'll stick LCHF as far as possible though it's harder to do when travelling and eating out etc. I don't wish to be awkward.

ROK ON wrote: »

Also on Sar evening did you remain lchf in terms of your evening meal?

Yep. Fatty pork belly with non-startchy veggies in butter. Om nom nom.

niceonetom

I also saw petethedrummer by the side of the road at some stage. Did he race? If so, race report! Now!

ROK ON

Thanks Tom -if you do Ras Mumhan I will make sure you get some lapel recovery food after stage 2.

ford2600

niceonetom wrote: »

I should have added at least one more proviso that's occurred to me since: I had some High5 in one of the bottles on the bike. Each race I drank about half of it - 500ml total with about 40g of CHO. I don't think that's enough CHO to be significant in terms of calories but it might be enough to trigger than fat-metabolism-killing insulin response so I know that I'm potentially contradicting myself here,

Did you try thst super starch Peter Attia pushes?

Restores glycogen without spiking insulin apparently. ..

petethedrummer

niceonetom wrote: »

I also saw petethedrummer by the side of the road at some stage. Did he race? If so, race report! Now!

Yeah I was out on my own there when you passed, leading the race back to the car park. I performed terribly through a combination of tactical naivety, poor physical preparation and some positional changes in recent times.

Highly confident for next weekend though!

mp31

ford2600 wrote: »

Breakfast before a 200km audax. An apple and a few nuts at 160km got me around without any hunger on bike

Excuse my ignorance on this subject but how long do you wait after eating that mega breakfast before going out on the audax?

ford2600

mp31 wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance on this subject but how long do you wait after eating that mega breakfast before going out on the audax?

Breakfast finished about 5.30am Audax started at 8am


EDIT: I didn't eat the pound of butter or the pot of coconut fat it was just used in cooking and coffee:)

Consumed a little yoghurt and all the cream

doozerie

AstraMonti, I hope you don’t mind my posing this question (plus some related questions below) here - I’d be very interested in hearing what way people on the LCHF diet keep track of their intake each day. Specifically, do you target a particular breakdown of carbs, proteins, and fats, and if so what is that breakdown?

I’m curious because I’ve been trying out this diet for a few months now but I’m not convinced that my approach to it really fits very well. Amongst the stuff I read early on I encountered the suggestion that your calorie intake on rest days should be made up of 15% carbs, 60% fats, and 25% protein. On days where you train it recommended a split of 35% carbs, 40% fats, and 25% protein.

Those figures made sense to me and seemed vaguely in keeping with other stuff I read about LCHF (most of which gave no specific details of suggested breakdown). So I’ve been working to those figures and while I’ve certainly seen benefits (drastically reduced hunger cravings, less energy spikes and crashes during the day, can do long fasted rides comfortably, etc.) this particular approach is throwing up a bunch of questions related to my main question above, which I’ve essentially ignored for the last while but which I’m keen to tackle now:

* Determining your protein intake as a percentage of calorie requirement for the day often pushes the protein figure way beyond recommended protein limits. I’ve seen recommended limit figures ranging from a max of 0.8g of protein per kg of body weight up to a max of 2.5g per kg, and I seem to recall Barry Murray suggesting a figure of 1.5g per kg in a talk of his that I attended. If you limit your protein intake according to your body weight, which seems like a good thing to do, then do you make up the calorie shortfall from fats or carbs, or both?

* On non-training days I find it easiest to consume the vast majority of my 15% carbs for the day at dinner time, so breakfast and lunch typically have a very small proportion of carbs (almost entirely from fruit and veg). On training days though it is difficult to do that as I’m not sure I could physically ingest 40% carbs for the day from one meal, so I eat at least a third of those carbs at lunch time - so on training days then, instead of 1 meal essentially being non-LCHF it’s 2 meals (plus the recovery shake and glass of fruit juice I consume directly after the evening (usually) training session, which is close to the equivalent of another meal). How do others tackle the need for extra carbs on a training day, do you space them out across the day as I do or do you eat them in one sitting pre or post training?

Thanks in advance for any info.

ford2600

Thanks in advance for any info.[/quote]

Ketones and Carbohydrates: Can they co exist?

Check out Peter Attias blog with the above title on the eating academy.

On mobile excuse short post

AstraMonti

After few weeks I was back on the bike and in the gym yesterday. A two week antibiotics session really takes a lot out of you, I only cycled for an hour and it was enough to leave me tired. Then I spent an hour at the gym last night, was fairly dead in the first half an hour, but managed to finish the whole hour. Happy enough with that.

My food haven't been great the last couple of weeks, when I am sick I can only digest few things, white bread is one of them. But I am back to normal now, so yesterday my breakfast was rashers and eggs with olives and rocket salad, steak with brocolli for lunch, salami, cheese and olives for snack and just milk with protein after the gym.

AstraMonti

Btw if you have any new lchf recipes share them because I am in need of new ideas.

petethedrummer

AstraMonti wrote: »

Btw if you have any new lchf recipes share them because I am in need of new ideas.

You need a Slow Cooker.

1 Carrot
2 sticks of celery
1 leek
1 Onion
1 or 2 Cloves of Garlic.
Salt
Pepper
1 Knob of butter
1 Spoon of Coconut oil.
A dash of water.

A bit more Optional...
Tomatoes.
Peppers.
Chillis.
Maybe a hint of wine (careful, it does not boil off)

Use that as a base. Really everything in that list is optional and the quantities can vary, though I prefer to keep the carrots to a minimum as they can spoil the taste.

Vary the spices and the meat used. Chicken works, Lamb - shoulder/knuckle/Leg/hearts. Don't use liver. Oxtail is beautiful. Beef Shin is lovely. Any stewing meat really. You can braze the meat before hand. With chicken you can stick it in the oven after, to make the skin crispy. You can do ham like that as well but you can't eat the run off (well I can't).

Particularly for lamb I like to crush the garlic and spread it on the meat beforehand.

You end up with a nice soft meat. Tasty non starchy veg. And a beautiful broth. The broth is always the best bit.

Dunno if it would keep you in ketosis.

AstraMonti

I am not/not planning to be in ketosis so I am fine with that. I need to get a slow cooker though, have been postponing it for a while now, might go over to argos today.

petethedrummer

I just wrote this in an email to someone else looking for one....

"I have 3.5 L Russell Hobbs with a ceramic bowl. I like it but it is too small for some cuts of meat. e.g. Shoulder, leg of lamb. The build quality is good and the 3 heat settings are good.

I wanted the 6.5 Litre version of the Russell Hobs but they only had it with a teflon bowl. So I went for a 6.5L Crock Pot with a ceramic bowl. The build quality is poor and and the 2 heat settings seem higher than the Russell Hobbs."

The Crockpot seems to boil everything more than the Russell Hobbs does. still a slow cooker but not as slow as the RH.

Lumen

doozerie wrote: »

Determining your protein intake as a percentage of calorie requirement for the day often pushes the protein figure way beyond recommended protein limits. I’ve seen recommended limit figures ranging from a max of 0.8g of protein per kg of body weight up to a max of 2.5g per kg, and I seem to recall Barry Murray suggesting a figure of 1.5g per kg in a talk of his that I attended. If you limit your protein intake according to your body weight, which seems like a good thing to do, then do you make up the calorie shortfall from fats or carbs, or both?

Would you not just limit your intake of bad ("high quality") proteins?

http://sacredsourcenutrition.com/plant-vs-animal-proteins/

(argument largely from ignorance, source not checked for cultishness)

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

source not checked for cultishness)

China study..... fails the cult test. Astra, Have him thrown out.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

China study..... fails the cult test.

Not sufficient. Please provide alternatives source(s) of higher quality information about health effects of different protein types.

petethedrummer

I'll just end up putting a link to Chris Kresser on both the China study and Protein.

doozerie

Lumen wrote: »

Would you not just limit your intake of bad ("high quality") proteins?

http://sacredsourcenutrition.com/plant-vs-animal-proteins/

(argument largely from ignorance, source not checked for cultishness)

Thanks for the link. I’m not convinced by the content though, and the author’s disparaging attitude toward alternative views doesn’t help sell their cause either. Not to mention their apparently unwavering faith in the view that a diet where protein provides 10+% of calories will give you cancer - I presume that’s a view fuelled by, amongst other things, that study reported widely in the general media recently (for info, the actual study itself is here), a study which raised more questions than it answered in my view.

In some respects my question re protein intake is probably moot, any excess may just be expelled as very expensive wee. Unless you subscribe to the view that extra protein (above 10% of some calorie figure or other that seems to remain undefined) will kill you quicker, that is, then it’s anything but moot I guess. I’ve actually been quite surprised to find that, where I suspect that my previous (high carb) diet was lacking protein, I’m now finding it a bit of a challenge to keep my daily protein intake under even a relatively high 2g per kg of body weight on a low carb diet.

Mostly I wanted to know though is:
* Roughly what daily split are people aiming for of carbs, fats, and proteins, if they aim for a particular split at all?
* Do people adjust that split on training days?

petethedrummer

doozerie wrote: »

* Roughly what daily split are people aiming for of carbs, fats, and proteins, if they aim for a particular split at all?

I don't aim for a particular split I just keep the white stuff to a minimum. I'm not a measurer or tracker of things so I couldn't tell you percentages.

doozerie wrote: »

* Do people adjust that split on training days?

My total volume of food goes up on a race/hard training day and the day after. I might go from 2/3 meals per day to 4/5. The percentage of protein probably goes up relative to the others post a hard workout. But then it all depends on how I feel. Sometimes I feel terrible and need a sleep and endless amounts of food. Sometimes the recovery is almost immediate. So I don't sit down and say I have done X miles, I weigh Y kgs, I therefore must have Z grams of protein. I just keep eating if I'm hungry and stop if I'm not.

I don't train often though and am not trying to recover to hit training dates. I wait until I have recovered and then train again. Training fits around recovery rather than trying to make recovery fit around training. I have pretty slow recovery and limited endurance talent, so this may all be irrelevant to you.

AstraMonti

I am the same with Pete. I don't count my food, I eat until I feel full and then again when I am hungry, I don't have normal hours, I could eat breakfast at 7 or at 10, lunch at 12 or 3. The only constant I have is milk with protein after my trainings. Again, I don't count how much protein, carbs, fat etc I am eating. As long as I am eating clean (low carb, high quality meat, fish, vegs) I am happy.

Now.. I have prawns with tail, I have coconut milk, coconut oil, cream and few vegs.. what can I make today?

Ryath

Do you have some Thai green curry paste or the making's of it.
Make cauliflower rice to go with it? Blitz in blender cover with cling film microwave for 7mins. It is pretty good though I do love my basmati.
A fresh lime make a huge difference to a thai curry add the zest at the start with the paste and the lime juice at end just before serving.

I'm still trying to keep lowish carb struggling at times now recently. Family meals are tricky as the kid's like pasta and rice dishes a lot, currys are handy though as I can make cauliflower rice for myself.
Started a new job a few months ago and lunch is a disaster some days if I don't bring food with me. Very little training last few months. I say I've lost a lot of my fat adaption. Managed a fast 150k spin on only a cup of black coffee half way round in September. I'd probably bonk at half that now if I didn't eat.

doozerie

Malaysian Beef & Aubergine Curry is a very tasty recipe for a slow cooker.

For those that like numbers, on the basis of using 250g of onion and 400g of aubergine, and taking that recipe as producing 4 portions, then one portion provides: 578 kcal - 11g carbs, 38g fat, 46g protein.

petethedrummer

doozerie wrote: »

Malaysian Beef & Aubergine Curry is a very tasty recipe for a slow cooker.

Nice one. I was gonna start looking into slow cooked curries myself. Stews are great in winter but the milder weather calls for something else.