A boat full of carbs

AstraMonti

Nice, did you add milk at all?

Haven't updated at all, slipped and fell my wrist on saturday so I haven't been out on the bike or the gym.

ford2600

AstraMonti wrote: »

Nice, did you add milk at all?

Haven't updated at all, slipped and fell my wrist on saturday so I haven't been out on the bike or the gym.

No milk, just the dark chocolate and nuts.

Sorry to hear about accident.

Will have to pick your brain in a few months on Greece and cycling. My wife has roped me into a sailing trip, I've agreed with provision I'll get 4/5 days solo in mountains with bike!

Paul Kiernan

ford2600 wrote: »

It doesn't have to be all meat and cheese...

Desert: 85% dark chocolate melted in bowl with home oven roasted hazel nuts.

Cool in fridge. Simple and very tasty

Looks yummy:). But what chocolate did you use? The only dark chocolate I'm familiar with is Bournville and it's more than 50% sugar!

AstraMonti

There is one in Lidl, I don't remember the name, 80% dark, with not too much sugar in it.

ford2600

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

Looks yummy:). But what chocolate did you use? The only dark chocolate I'm familiar with is Bournville and it's more than 50% sugar!

Lidl do a nice one at 81% cocoa
43% fat
22% carbohydrate (I presume mainly sugar but don't have breakdown)

Aldi do an 83/85% I discarded wrapper!

Lindt do a 90% cocoa which from memory is 14% carbohydrate.

Home roasted nuts are the business though, just put in oven for 15 mins, no need for oils or anything. I've done this with Hazel and chestnuts before using them for soup. Use plenty Butter/coconut oil and fat bacon when sweating veg. Add roasted nuts after stock and add cream in bowl. Really nice!

I'm turning this into a recipe thread! Apologies OP

AstraMonti

Haha not a problem. Today I am doing lamb kebabs.

http://www.lchfmalta.com/recipes/dinners-lunches/balkan-kebabs/

i_surge

Lads, all the food sounds great.

Made a slow cooked Moroccan lamb stew with lots of harissa at the weekend, but it's nothing without some toasted flat breads to mop up the juices! Life's too short...

Paul Kiernan

ford2600 wrote: »

On Irish beef/dairy production there are some famers now doing zero graze feeding. Can't be good for food quality. Not sure how much it will catch on though.

Interesting item on Countrywide on RTE Radio 1 last Saturday morning.

Link to it here. Interview with the author of Farmageddon about 5 minutes in.

I found the whole thing quite distressing!

ford2600

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

Interesting item on Countrywide on RTE Radio 1 last Saturday morning.

Link to it here. Interview with the author of Farmageddon about 5 minutes in.

I found the whole thing quite distressing!

The reason I posted was for most part buying good irish beef/lamb is easy.

I'd be careful with some large scale operators, but once you get to know a butcher, supermarket it's easy enough.

Most Irish beef is grass fed, 270 days of year or so. Concentrate is expensive and not overly used.

This thread though surprised me

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057144644

ROK ON

ford2600 wrote: »

It doesn't have to be all meat and cheese...

Desert: 85% dark chocolate melted in bowl with home oven roasted hazel nuts.

Cool in fridge. Simple and very tasty

Add cream, pecans and shaved coconut.

ryan_sherlock

Barry Murray talks lower carb and fasting with Ben Greenfield: http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/02/combining-fasting-and-exercise/

AstraMonti

Bought this bunch for a good price: https://gokaleo.com/superheroes/#/content

I am sure I will regret reading some of those.

niceonetom

So yesterday was my first attempt at racing on LCHF and I thought I might share the experience here for the benefit of those who might be doing the same in the next few weeks.

I had considered breaking from the norm and going back to my old pre-race ways - porridge with honey, a few bananas, half a pack of figrolls in the car on the way down, maybe some jelly babies, carbs carbs carbs but, seeing as had no expectation of results and wasn't even putting myself under pressure to even race aggressively, I though I'd see how I got on with the new regime - bacon and eggs, fatty coffee. No carbs at all, at least not before the race. I had a bottle with High5 on the bike and a couple of gels in the pocket just in case. I had a few sips of the energy drink during the race but just to wet the mouth. Didn't touch the gels.

To my surprise I felt perfectly fine in the race. I know it was a very short one and on a flat course too so not exactly a serious test. The first 15km or so were all move, counter move, move, counter move as the dozen or so riders who weren't just out to spin the legs tried to animate things and get up the road. It was fast enough but it's February so I think most people were really only testing the legs not totally committing. I just maintained my position for he most part and had a few goes at following the wheels of lads I thought might be a free ticket across to the first break. The initial move didn't stick and then Robin Kelly went again into the headwind. Everyone was so keen not be be on the front that it was a miracle the bunch didn't end up going backwards and that was that. The race livened up again later as another group went on a cross-tailwind section and then the speed remained fast but steady as a few people tried to get across to them. Anyway, with virtually nothing left to race for we rode reasonably hard back to Monasterevin and I was happy enough jut to roll though and take my turn. So, in short, there's my first bit of evidence that it is indeed possible to race (at least for <90mins) without carbs and not feel at any disadvantage. Sure. I'm still outstandingly mediocre but at least I'm not more mediocre. Again, it's February. That needs to be remembered.

As it was such a short race I rode home after - about another 60km - just at a steady Z2 pace with little Z4 digs on the few inclines on the way and a couple of sprints just to see how the legs would respond. Felt really good actually. I got hungry eventually and had one of the gels but that I would put down to the fact that it was nearly 3 o'clock and I hadn't eaten since before 8, not to sugar cravings or bonk.

Got in, had a nice paleo-ish meal with some white rice and have to say I feel pretty good today. No muscle soreness or real fatigue. Just the usual constant peckishness I always have after a 120km+ spin.

I've been waiting a while to put this regime to the test and I have to say that so far it's working.

ROK ON

Tom

Thanks for the feedback. Useful. Will you keep up the feedback when you get to medium distance and longer distance races. TBH, 57k isnt all that long - even for me.

Can I ask about the fatty coffee. I recall you telling me about this at a league race during the summer.
I have to say that I dont get it.
Do you like it. By that I mean do you like it more than your regular brew?

I am an espresso snob - I have never had milk, cream or any type of fat in my coffee - ever.
Why butter? Why not cream?

If it is just calories that you want for energy, then why butter in coffee as opposed to some extra protein for breakfast?

Also for the LCHF guys, why always egggs and bacon? As big a fan as I am of eggs and bacon, both mackeral and kippers are fantatsic first thing in the morning?

duffyshuffle

ROK ON wrote: »

Tom

Thanks for the feedback. Useful. Will you keep up the feedback when you get to medium distance and longer distance races. TBH, 57k isnt all that long - even for me.

Can I ask about the fatty coffee. I recall you telling me about this at a league race during the summer.
I have to say that I dont get it.
Do you like it. By that I mean do you like it more than your regular brew?

I am an espresso snob - I have never had milk, cream or any type of fat in my coffee - ever.
Why butter? Why not cream?

If it is just calories that you want for energy, then why butter in coffee as opposed to some extra protein for breakfast?

Also for the LCHF guys, why always egggs and bacon? As big a fan as I am of eggs and bacon, both mackeral and kippers are fantatsic first thing in the morning?

Bacon and eggs are amazing! Thats my excuse anyway Don't mind mackerel, but kippers I couldn't face. I'd happily eat a steak as my first meal of the day, so it doesn't have to be eggs and bacon.

I have MCT oil (coconut oil but 6 times stronger than it) and unsalted butter blended in to my coffee most mornings, it fills me, tastes amazing, and I feel I have great energy from it, then I eat whenever i'm hungry after it.

In my understanding (happy to be corrected!) MCT can be broken down quickly and used for energy despite it being all fat, which means you can continue to primarily burn fat rather than 'switch on' your carb burning and spiking your blood sugars earlier in the day, resulting in level energy all day and making you leaner/healthier.

I rarely eat on the bike any more, a good coffee and/or eggs and bacon will get me hours before I get hungry, and I don't find my harder efforts are affected, once I top up the carbs post session with sweet pots or fruit or every now and then some porridge.

niceonetom

ROK ON wrote: »

Tom
...57k isnt all that long - even for me.

No, it was only a short race but still, there is a perception among many that without carbs the day before and certainly the morning before then racing is just impossible, not just because of the length but because of the intensity. And I rode home, only having a gel at about 100km, and I would have preferred something less sugary if I'd had it.

It's also a validation of all the training I've done without carbs - there is a line of thought that training on low carb robs you of the ability to train with the necessary intensity and so is a bit of a waste of time.

ROK ON wrote: »

Can I ask about the fatty coffee. I recall you telling me about this at a league race during the summer.
I have to say that I dont get it.
Do you like it. By that I mean do you like it more than your regular brew?

Yeah, I like it. Now. I normally use a good heaped spoon of coconut oil and about half that of butter - the oil alone doesn't really emulsify so the butter helps with that. You have to use a blender or, as I've taken to doing, make your coffee in a jar with a lid and then shake the bejaysus out of it so the fat emulsifies. The result is sort of silky. Some people prefer cream (heavy or double is best) though some argue against the greater lactose content as being a bit too high GI or something. Others avoid all dairy and just use oil. Some are after the MCTs so buy it refined. I'm not that pushed so I'll have cream if it's there and the mood strikes me but coconut oil tastes cleaner somehow and has become a part of my morning. And sure it's an affectation too - it's interesting to see people react in a café as you unwrap a pat of butter and drop it into a doppio. I'm not a coffee snob, though I do enjoy offending them.

ROK ON wrote: »

If it is just calories that you want for energy, then why butter in coffee as opposed to some extra protein for breakfast?

Fat tastes a lot better than protein, and it's very hard to get turkey breast to dissolve in coffee.

ROK ON wrote: »

Also for the LCHF guys, why always egggs and bacon? As big a fan as I am of eggs and bacon, both mackeral and kippers are fantatsic first thing in the morning?

I don't always have eggs and bacon, sometimes I just have eggs, or eggs with cheese, or avocado, or chorizo, or kippers (though I find they do repeat). Eggs are the only staple. I eat a slightly insane amount of eggs these days.

ford2600

Yeah, I like it. Now. I normally use a good heaped spoon of coconut oil and about half that of butter - the oil alone doesn't really emulsify so the butter helps with that. You have to use a blender or, as I've taken to doing, make your coffee in a jar with a lid and then shake the bejaysus out of it so the fat emulsifies. The result is sort of silky. Some people prefer cream (heavy or double is best) though some argue against the greater lactose content as being a bit too high GI or something. Others avoid all dairy and just use oil. Some are after the MCTs so buy it refined. I'm not that pushed so I'll have cream if it's there and the mood strikes me but coconut oil tastes cleaner somehow and has become a part of my morning. And sure it's an affectation too - it's interesting to see people react in a café as you unwrap a pat of butter and drop it into a doppio. I'm not a coffee snob, though I do enjoy offending them.

I felt the whole 6 times concentration on the MCT oil was a bit snake oilish for me. I have a really nice Gaggia Brera coffee machine and add coconut oil and unsalted butter to double espresso.

I'm not hungry in morning anyhow, but this extends body's call for food and I find concentration excellent

Eggs are the only staple. I eat a slightly insane amount of eggs these days.[/QUOTE]

I'd hate to put a number on my egg intake


As an aside what do you eat after long cycles, yesterday for example?

I did a 145km spin yesterday, the first 120km on empty (had no breakfast) and then just had a few nuts as I started to feel a little hungry. I've done something similar in distance to this(up to 185km with fatty breakfast and zero food on bike) 5/6 times but I do find it hard to feed the beast usually the day after.

Normally have a fruit salad with cream/greek yoghurt immediately, just wondering if anyone else has any tips.


As for less sugary on bike, Peter Attia seems to be pushing some "super starch", which manages to top up glycogen without spiking insulin and messing up fat utilisation. Might be snake oil too!

petethedrummer

ROK ON wrote: »

Also for the LCHF guys, why always egggs and bacon? As big a fan as I am of eggs and bacon, both mackeral and kippers are fantatsic first thing in the morning?

I had an omelette with salmon and a couple of cherry tomatoes this morning. Washed down with a cup of tea and the snowboard cross on the TV. A good start to the day.

I tend to take my carbs later in the day. I've never tried kippers. I'll put them on my next shopping list.

AstraMonti

Eggs with bacon are awesome. I can actually live on bacon alone if needed I also have scrambled eggs with cheese. Or boiled eggs with mayo. I do eat a ridiculous amount of eggs per week, probably 20+. I can't eat fish in the morning, it turns my stomach around.

I went out on the bike today for a quick and hard 1h session, 20mins warm up up and down the hill, 5x1min on/off intervals and 5x30secs on/off intervals, warm down and went to the gym, there was a lady from a supplement company (fairly big brand) giving a presentation about nutrition (obviously targeted in their own stuff) but I didn't hear any low fat/6 portions of carbs nonsense which was nice for a change. She stayed more on the eating clean rather than low carb, but still good enough to make people thing of what they are eating.

Tom please keep the reports coming, very interesting stuff.

ford2600

Can you imagine the world of 2010 a.d.? Of course, the way it will look will depend a lot on what is done with the Bomb. I suppose men will still eat eggs for breakfast, have sex problems. Write poetry. Commit suicide.
– Charles Bukowski

AstraMonti

That's my lunch, angus sirloin marinated with spices for 4hours in the fridge. Slow cooked in the oven for 2.5hours on a bed of zucchini, 3 butter cubes and two slices of premium bacon for extra taste.

AstraMonti

An interesting read. http://authoritynutrition.com/how-to-overcome-food-addiction/

I am possibly opening a can of worms, but I used to believe the term addiction was used way too lightly by people too lazy to research what's causing their problems. I believed that sitting on a couch eating pizzas/burgers etc was "asking for it"; a mentality that have now come to disagree with. Anyway, that's probably for another subject, but it's what processed food is creating.

AstraMonti

I am taking an 8week long nutrition class. I 've learned so far that all diets that tell you to eat less than 150gr a day of carbs are dangerous and that your daily intake should consist of at least 60% of carbs. Not only that, but an athlete, needs at least 625 grams a day of carbs! 6 2 5 ! Also, saturated fats raise our bad cholesterol and thus we should avoid eating coconut oil for example and of course we should be eating less than 20gr of these fats a day. We should not be eating more than 400gr of meat per week. And also we should be eating low fat stuff. I think I am annoyed.

petethedrummer

A balanced discussion on all things Paleo.

http://robbwolf.com/2014/02/25/episode-214-guest-chris-kresser/

i_surge

Following the whole LCHF thing with interest. The one things that turns me off the concept is vitamin/mineral deficiencies from removing (for the most part) fruit, starchy veg (and legumes?) from ones diet.

In addition to vitamins and minerals, lots of varied and beneficial phytochemicals are found in fruit and veg so restricting their intake doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Is there any discussion/study of this?

Atkins is shown to be pretty bad from a micronutrient perspective and vitamin supplements are recommended. It's hard to argue that a diet is complete or sustainable if supplementation is needed.

Is LCHF similar but with more green veg and do the differences bridge the gap?

http://anthonycolpo.com/both-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets-cause-vitamin-and-mineral-deficiencies/

DaithiMC

i_surge wrote: »

Following the whole LCHF thing with interest. The one things that turns me off the concept is vitamin/mineral deficiencies from removing (for the most part) fruit, starchy veg (and legumes?) from ones diet.

In addition to vitamins and minerals, lots of varied and beneficial phytochemicals are found in fruit and veg so restricting their intake doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Is there any discussion/study of this?

Atkins is shown to be pretty bad from a micronutrient perspective and vitamin supplements are recommended. It's hard to argue that a diet is complete or sustainable if supplementation is needed.

Is LCHF similar but with more green veg and do the differences bridge the gap?

http://anthonycolpo.com/both-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets-cause-vitamin-and-mineral-deficiencies/

Why would you worry about vitamin deficiencies when you can buy supplements reasonably cheaply? I recall one of the items on the list when Atkins was popular was to supplement with a multi-vitamin formulation. I think the Paleo is probably a better solution for getting fibre in its native form from the veg and nuts and seeds allowed, as well as the occasional fruit.

I don't disagree with the arguments that LCHF does not cause the issues fat historically was related to but I am more concerned about a complete reduction of vegetable, fibre, and fruits.

Was reading an interesting article about the gut microbiome the other day and it seems we can do ourselves some damage if we concentrate our diet one way or the other and alter the types of bacteria we need to help our immune systems stay in a reasonable state of repair.

i_surge

DaithiMC wrote: »

Why would you worry about vitamin deficiencies when you can buy supplements reasonably cheaply? I recall one of the items on the list when Atkins was popular was to supplement with a multi-vitamin formulation. I think the Paleo is probably a better solution for getting fibre in its native form from the veg and nuts and seeds allowed, as well as the occasional fruit.

I don't disagree with the arguments that LCHF does not cause the issues fat historically was related to but I am more concerned about a complete reduction of vegetable, fibre, and fruits.

Was reading an interesting article about the gut microbiome the other day and it seems we can do ourselves some damage if we concentrate our diet one way or the other and alter the types of bacteria we need to help our immune systems stay in a reasonable state of repair.

Lots of reasons why food sources are preferable to supplements, mainly to do with the structure of naturally occurring vs. synthetic forms of a compound.

Good summary here.

http://www.doctorsresearch.com/articles4.html

duffyshuffle

i_surge wrote: »

Lots of reasons why food sources are preferable to supplements, mainly to do with the structure of naturally occurring vs. synthetic forms of a compound.

Good summary here.

http://www.doctorsresearch.com/articles4.html

Most LCHF diets would encourage massive amounts of non starchy carb? And then starchy and fruit depending on exercise as far as I'm aware? It depends how low carb you go, for carb counting on a v low carb, I think people deduct the fibre cotent of the non starchy carb, so there's very little in celeriac, Brussel sprouts, cabbage, broccoli...

duffyshuffle

AstraMonti wrote: »

I am taking an 8week long nutrition class. I 've learned so far that all diets that tell you to eat less than 150gr a day of carbs are dangerous and that your daily intake should consist of at least 60% of carbs. Not only that, but an athlete, needs at least 625 grams a day of carbs! 6 2 5 ! Also, saturated fats raise our bad cholesterol and thus we should avoid eating coconut oil for example and of course we should be eating less than 20gr of these fats a day. We should not be eating more than 400gr of meat per week. And also we should be eating low fat stuff. I think I am annoyed.

Similar recommendations given to our club recently, an incredible amount of carbs suggested, 700g carb, 100g pro 100g fat on a training day or something like that.
Were you doing the course to try learn about higher fat etc or what?

ryan_sherlock

I'm doing this on SIGNIFICANTLY lower carb than 600g/day (http://www.strava.com/activities/113799895) - I am not advocating going super low all the time, but what is out there is just wrong (all in, I probably had 400g carb that day, but, calorie expenditure would have been around 8,000-10,000cal [wiggles hands in air]) - if you look closely at the wattages, I was also performing pretty well.

In relation to lack of nutrients etc... Typical dinner for me:
Massive (now, I really do mean massive) green leafy salad (lots of different leaves, rocket etc), with red pepper, cucumber, tomatoes, capers, (some) beet, shallots, lemmon/lime/avocado/salt/pepper/chilli/EVO Oil dressing, big Ribeye steak cooked with coconut oil, sprinkling of seeds/nuts. (lots of the time, the ribeye would be replaced with some form of offal - have a look at nutrient density of that versus any other type of food). Possibly a side of sprouts with butter if I had been training a lot. Probably some frozen berries and a square or two of Lindt 90% chocolate afterwards.

Pretty much covering everything there - when I came back from Asia last year, I basically craved that twice a day (and gave into my cravings).

It is really great to question everything though (I was once a vegetarian, and even a vegan) - thankfully, information is easy to find and reputable people are coming forward about talking and this. Always check to see who funds the study/research... I'm just happy people are thinking about this - when you start putting effort into any diet, people usually do better - well, maybe not with inedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia)

[Better say now that I'm being funded by the local farmers association of Ireland... only joking]