Westworld (HBO/Sky Atlantic) [** Spoilers **]

CastorTroy

In the original movie, wasn't the way to identify the robots

something to do with their hands?

Sad Professor

CastorTroy wrote: »

In the original movie, wasn't the way to identify the robots

something to do with their hands?

Yeah, and Hopkins references this in the first episode as being a problem with the early hosts.

Lirange

Snake Plisken wrote: »

My favourite character is the Piano, this week we got a blast of

Radiohead

Funny considering Jimmy Simpson is basically Thom Yorke sans the lazy eye.

Roar

Lirange wrote: »

Funny considering Jimmy Simpson is basically Thom Yorke sans the lazy eye.

Or Thom Yorke with a really lazy eye

nc6000

Roar wrote:

Or Thom Yorke with a really lazy eye

Wow, what a really crappy post. Well done.

kumate_champ07

first episode was amazing, so the 2nd had a difficult job following it but was still pretty good. I havent been this excited about a tv show in a while(been counting down the days till ep3), glad its weekly rather than all at once.

I only recently watched Ex Machina, that and HER should be on peoples to watch list if you enjoy this. (Blade Runner too of course)

Shane St.

just watched the first two!

Very impressed and dying for the next one

white apples

Theory on the man in black:

He's the main character from the original film. As compensation / payoff for all the sh** he went through he was given free lifetime access to Westworld. As a result of his experiences he has some issues with machines and has been destroying them for the last 30 years, acting out his aggression, revenge, whatever you want to call it. But he's become bored and is looking for the 'next level'. In episode 2, he's mentioned as he's taken out so many hosts, 'should we slow him down?', and they say to leave him alone, he can do what he wants - he has a free pass.

Spoiler is only relevant if you intend to watch the film.

Hazys

After watching episode 3, spoilers below.


A couple of Q's:

Did Dolores put the gun in the haystack preemptively, because now she has memories of what happens in the barn and wanted to protect herself?

After leaving the barn, one of the guys shot and hit her, right? but she didn't take any damage? If so, are they saying she has become conscious and the guns no longer work on her?

Also whats the rule on spoilers? People seem to be spoiling everything from speculation to people reading the books and seeing the movie. All the random spoilering is getting annoying as you have no idea what the spoiler is referring to. I only put spoilers on mine just in case but imo should we only put spoilers on replies that reference the movie or book, i think everything else should be fair game as people shouldn't come to the thread until they've seen the latest episode...thoughts?

corkie

corkie wrote: »

Theory: -

Could the Man In black be Peter Martin (a.k.a Richard Benjamin) character from the original film, as he has been visiting the park for 30 Years?

As mentioned earlier in the thread: -

Found the "Delos" logo in the first episode. Around 19 mins.

white apples wrote: »

Theory on the man in black:

He's the main character from the original film. As compensation / payoff for all the sh** he went through he was given free lifetime access to Westworld. As a result of his experiences he has some issues with machines and has been destroying them for the last 30 years, acting out his aggression, revenge, whatever you want to call it. But he's become bored and is looking for the 'next level'. In episode 2, he's mentioned as he's taken out so many hosts, 'should we slow him down?', and they say to leave him alone, he can do what he wants - he has a free pass.

Spoiler is only relevant if you intend to watch the film.

Posted the same theory last week.

The third episode has not done much to develop the plot further, seems like a filler episode, to introduce new story lines. Also bit of cliffhanger with stories left uncompleted. No followup on Meave's story-line due to her wake-up in episode 2, she did have a flashback, but that was all. Probably have to re-watch it again tonight.

Hazys

corkie wrote: »

Posted the same theory last week.

The third episode has not done much to develop the plot further, seems like a filler episode, to introduce new story lines. Also bit of cliffhanger with stories left uncompleted. No followup on Meave's story-line due to her wake-up in episode 2, she did have a flashback, but that was all. Probably have to re-watch it again tonight.

I think the show is heading in this direction:

Dolores fell into the arms William at the end of the episode. I think William (who fall for Dolores in a brief moment in ep2) will see that she is conscious (or semi-conscious) and being the good guy that he is will try and save her from Westworld.

corkie

Hazys wrote: »

After watching episode 3, spoilers below.


A couple of Q's:

Did Dolores put the gun in the haystack preemptively, because now she has memories of what happens in the barn and wanted to protect herself?

After leaving the barn, one of the guys shot and hit her, right? but she didn't take any damage? If so, are they saying she has become conscious and the guns no longer work on her?

I thought she took the Gun from the guy that dragged her into the barn. I know she had already found a gun at the end of episode 2.

Re-spoilers: - Since it doesn't air on Sky Atlantic till Tuesday Night, it may be better to use them. Or when referencing the film for people haven't watched recently (or at all) and may want to re-watch it.

Cina

Hazys wrote: »

After watching episode 3, spoilers below.


A couple of Q's:

Did Dolores put the gun in the haystack preemptively, because now she has memories of what happens in the barn and wanted to protect herself?

After leaving the barn, one of the guys shot and hit her, right? but she didn't take any damage? If so, are they saying she has become conscious and the guns no longer work on her?

Yes she did.

No - that was a flashback to another night, she's remembering these things happening previously and knew to run and get on her horse or else he'd shoot her.

expectationlost

can we have spoilers for spoilers but not for episode discussions, its says spoilers at the top.

expectationlost

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Straight from Jonathan Nolan's mouth:

"We thought a lot about this. In the original film, the guns won’t operate guest on guest, but we felt like the guests would want to have a more visceral experience here. So when they’re shot it has sort of the impact. They’re called simunitions. The U.S. military trains with rounds like the ones we’re talking about. But there’s a bit of an impact, a bit of a sting. So it’s not entirely consequence-free for the guests."

i know they have been engaging in slow and slightly decpetive reveals but would it have been better to clear this up straight away it was only really show in ep 3.

expectationlost

I wasn't sure whether the lady gunslinger was host or a guest.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Sad Professor

Spoilers for Episode 3 ahead:

- So if Ford is God, who is Satan? Or if the Eden references are anything to go by, who is the serpent? The MIB, I guess, as he's the one trying to undermine Ford's world and "free" the hosts by giving them consciousness. Of course, the serpent isn't necessarily Satan leaving open the possibility that the MIB is being employed by someone else. Such as Arnold (if he's still alive), or perhaps even Ford himself since depending on your religious persuasion Satan isn't necessarily acting against God's will and can be his servant.

- The bicameral mind stuff has a lot of implications. I'm not sure I buy it as an explanation for human consciousness, but it's a terrific concept for understanding how AI might achieve consciousness. It also ties in nicely with the religious references. At the moment though it seems like the hosts are only becoming a aware of this god-like voice in their heads, which I suppose is probably the beginning of them losing the voice altogether.

- Who are Wyatt's gang? Are they hosts or guests? I'm thinking guests, which was my same thought about the Indians who attacked Maeve last episode. This might be the darker side of the park, presumedly only for VIPs who want to indulge in rape and murder on a large scale.

Unknown Soldier

Sad Professor wrote: »

At the moment though it seems like the hosts are only becoming a aware of this god-like voice in their heads, which I suppose is probably the beginning of them losing the voice altogether.

I'm only on E2 but the impression I got was that the People of Westworld became sentient a good while back and are hiding it.

cumulonimbus

I thought perhaps the MIB might be Arnold.

Since guests are running with the bad guys, what is stopping them from harming other guests?

@ expectationlost: I thought the lady gunslinger was a guest.

ManOfMystery

Pretty good ep all round. Liked the young Ford footage, nice bit of digital graphic work there.

cumulonimbus wrote: »

I thought perhaps the MIB might be Arnold.

I considered this also for a number of reasons :

- timescale (MIB said he's been coming for 30 yrs, and the photo of Arnold would put him in the right age category if so)
- Ford said Arnold 'died' in the park. MIB stated that one could say he was 'born' in the park. These may be references not to a literal birth/death, but some kind of epiphany or mental breakdown.
- If Arnold was Ford's partner, he was very high up the pecking order - which ties in with Ep2, where we learnt the MIB gets to do whatever he wants as far as Westworld staff are concerned.

However it seems a little too ............... obvious? Also, someone who was in Arnold's position would surely be recognised by all the staff as the MIB?

Another thing which was mentioned a lot in this episode was the focus on Orion. I thought this was interesting. Orion was the mythical Greek hunter who was placed among the stars as the constellation of Orion. There are many stories surrounding him, but one of these was his death by the bow of Artemis. That's the same Artemis who was - according to myth - the twin sister of Apollo, and born on the same island - Delos.

Additionally, and this is a more recent development which has nothing to do with Greek mythology but ties into my earlier theory .........

Orion is the ongoing NASA spacecraft project which has been and will continue to participate in development missions, all geared towards it leading a successful voyage to Mars sometime in the 2030s

Dr Crayfish

If they have such advanced technology - how can they not remotely shut off the stray host, and are they not immediately aware when Dolores doesn't follow through with the intended story? No red flags at base when she shoots the other host?
Argh... I really want to love this and I'm enjoying it, but I'm just finding too many plot holes.
Funny how you take dragons and magic on board without batting an eyelid in GOT but with this I'm just not convinced, so far at least.

Also - to who's benefit is it having Teddy and Dolores spending so much time alone together and having those conversations? The guests? The other robots? It's starting to drag... I can't see this becoming a classic.

CastorTroy

Episode 3 spoilers

So Teddy seemed to be shooting Wyatt's Sandpeople without hurting them. What happens if a guest is stabbed? Or going by the fact Jimmi was knocked down when shot, what if they get shot in the head? Could do a bit of damage.

As for when to use spoiler tags, I would suggest saying what the spolier is for (movie, theory, scenes from trailer, episode) so people know whether to read or not. I say spoiler movie spoilers for people who want to watch themselves, maybe after the series is over. And spoiler scenes from trailer because not everyone wants to know "Sure we see that character who's supposedly dead in an upcoming episode according to the trailer"

Citizenpain

Enjoying it so far . It's very like "lost" in style

Dr Crayfish

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

If they have such advanced technology - how can they not remotely shut off the stray host, and are they not immediately aware when Dolores doesn't follow through with the intended story? No red flags at base when she shoots the other host?
Argh... I really want to love this and I'm enjoying it, but I'm just finding too many plot holes.
Funny how you take dragons and magic on board without batting an eyelid in GOT but with this I'm just not convinced, so far at least.

Also - to who's benefit is it having Teddy and Dolores spending so much time alone together and having those conversations? The guests? The other robots? It's starting to drag... I can't see this becoming a classic.

Same. I'm trying suspend my disbelief but there are lots of small things. Bernard having his secret conversation in glass rooms seems a tad risky. I find it bizarre that the best way to diagnose these machines is by talking to them. The conversation between Teddy and Dolores seems pointless if it will just be erased the next day. Are the humans not aware of how dangerous the hosts can be? That girl almost got crushed by a rock and a whim.

I do want to know what happens next but its a bit of mess so far for me.

MOH

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Also - to who's benefit is it having Teddy and Dolores spending so much time alone together and having those conversations? The guests? The other robots? It's starting to drag... I can't see this becoming a classic.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The Man in Black? And the same guest interacted with Dolores twice in the last ep, on the street and he was at the farmhouse. and I'm pretty sure the female gunslinger with Teddy now is a guest. The whole Teddy/Dolores thing was actually over-explained by Ford when he was reprogramming Teddy. It's setting up a relationship between them for people who want to come along and destroy it. It's like having NPCs interact with each other in a game, it adds to
the feeling that this is an actual world.

ManofMystery wrote:

Also, someone who was in Arnold's position would surely be recognised by all the staff as the MIB?

Bernard never even knew he existed. So it's not clear how many other people knew of him, or would recognise him if they did. There's also the possibility Ford was lied to and Arnold is part of whatever else it is that "corporate" are doing, which was mentioned in ep 1. Or again, maybe Ford was lying to Bernard. I don't quite trust him.

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

If they have such advanced technology - how can they not remotely shut off the stray host, and are they not immediately aware when Dolores doesn't follow through with the intended story? No red flags at base when she shoots the other host?
Argh... I really want to love this and I'm enjoying it, but I'm just finding too many plot holes.
Funny how you take dragons and magic on board without batting an eyelid in GOT but with this I'm just not convinced, so far at least.

The stray was malfunctioning - Elsie's attempts to shut it down on the spot failed, so there's no guarantee a remote shutdown would have worked. Although it is odd - any other time we've seen a host shut down it's been either in response to a verbal command code, or at short range, it's not clear that there is a remote option.

The Dolores story has already been altered by Ford's new storyline, with Teddy away, so it mightn't have been clear to anyone that something is wrong, at least up to the point she shot the other host (assuming anyone saw that - it was in the barn, and with no guest involved wouldn't expect them to be constantly watching every host). Or it might have raised flags, and we just haven't seen that yet


Spoilered for speculation:

I'm starting to wonder about Bernard. His questions about Arnold mirror Dolores' questions about his son. And we see his backstory in the same episode as Teddy gets a new one made up. One which Ford goes out of his way to mention as he's leaving. But I can't see any reason why he would be a host, unless this is Corporate's ulterior motive: to insert AIs among the staff and see if they notice, as a prelude to either selling them commercially or something more sinister

ManOfMystery

Deleted User wrote: »

Same. I'm trying suspend my disbelief but there are lots of small things. Bernard having his secret conversation in glass rooms seems a tad risky. I find it bizarre that the best way to diagnose these machines is by talking to them. The conversation between Teddy and Dolores seems pointless if it will just be erased the next day. Are the humans not aware of how dangerous the hosts can be? That girl almost got crushed by a rock and a whim.

I do want to know what happens next but its a bit of mess so far for me.

Just my opinions so could be totally wrong, but -

- Bernard having his secret conversation in glass rooms seems a tad risky - aren't all the rooms glass? They seem to have a very open and transparent (literally!) policy as regards the workplace.

- I find it bizarre that the best way to diagnose these machines is by talking to them - I initially thought it strange, but I think it's perfect now. The story can't be progressed by us seeing them plug in a tablet and download pages and pages of diagnostic code. Having them actually diagnose the 'machines' by speech further blurs the lines between the perception of the hosts as just machines, or as beings becoming self-conscious and human-like. It's a deliberate ploy to make us feel for them, as parallelled by that tech guy who Ford picked on because he covered up the host to protect its modesty.

- The conversation between Teddy and Dolores seems pointless if it will just be erased the next day - I felt the repetition of this was to emphasise the loop that Dolores is caught in and to provide some foundation for her behaviour later, where she draws upon those loop memories to escape from the men attacking her.

- Are the humans not aware of how dangerous the hosts can be? - I assumed the hosts are limited in what they can do by their programming. Dolores couldn't fire a gun initially as she physically couldn't make herself pull the trigger, so it was my belief that other hosts can't stab a knife or throw a rock or whatever. But now we've seen that she's changing, and she can overcome that restriction - so the rest of the park may follow suit.

Fred Swanson

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

All the hosts are in those loops as you put it. Thats how it works.

They are both hosts that don't interact with the guests.

Sure they do. We've seen Teddy interacting with several guests. And we've seen Delores interacting with several as well. She interacted with the Man in Back in the first episode.

Also - to who's benefit is it having Teddy and Dolores spending so much time alone together and having those conversations? The guests? The other robots? It's starting to drag...

Did you ever play World of Warcraft or another MMORPG game? There are characters called NPCs or Non-player Characters. All those characters are in a loop where they appear somewhere, do some things and disappear again and their loop begins again. Whats the benefit? To make the experience realistic. Yes Delores does the same thing everyday, but she interacts with people during the course of the day and depending on what those people say or want impacts how her day goes.

Whats the alternative to her and all the hosts having their daily routines? If they werent going about their business then they'd just be stood there until a guest appeared to interact with them, which would just look creepy and it wouldn't be an immersive experience.

AlmightyCushion

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you ever play World of Warcraft or another MMORPG game? There are characters called NPCs or Non-player Characters. All those characters are in a loop where they appear somewhere, do some things and disappear again and their loop begins again. Whats the benefit? To make the experience realistic. Yes Delores does the same thing everyday, but she interacts with people during the course of the day and depending on what those people say or want impacts how her day goes.

Whats the alternative to her and all the hosts having their daily routines? If they werent going about their business then they'd just be stood there until a guest appeared to interact with them, which would just look creepy and it wouldn't be an immersive experience.

You even see it in non MMO games like the elder scrolls and fallout series. It's pretty common in games, I don't know how people are having a problem getting it.

Jan_de_Bakker

Easily the best TV show on right now, Anthony Hopkins in this latest episode was fantastic - he just nailed it.