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M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [planning decision pending]

  • #1
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭ Limerick74


    It looks like a new scheme is on the way as Limerick County Council have started the procurement of consultants for the Foynes to Limerick Road Improvement Scheme.


«13456722

Comments



  • Is it on E tenders yet?




  • Here's an idea....why not build the long awaited Adare bypass and then have that veer north towards Foynes. In effect, half of this new road* has been built already as motorway that stops just short of Adare. Continue on this line more or less following the general route of the disused railway line (for which this may now spell the end, convert that to a greenway!).

    All presuming of course that this project is a brand new road, rather than just straightening a few bends on the N69.

    *Ok more like a quarter, but you get my drift




  • I think the village of Askeaton was one of the first, if not the very first place to be bypassed by a National Secondary route back in the early 1980s for the lorry traffic to and from the Augunish Aluminia plant near Foynes.




  • It looks like a new scheme to me rather than just improvements on the N69. The eTenders notice details the consultant's work to include Feasibility, Route Selection, Design and statutory procedures.




  • RikkFlair wrote: »
    Here's an idea....why not build the long awaited Adare bypass and then have that veer north towards Foynes. In effect, half of this new road* has been built already as motorway that stops just short of Adare. Continue on this line more or less following the general route of the disused railway line (for which this may now spell the end, convert that to a greenway!).

    All presuming of course that this project is a brand new road, rather than just straightening a few bends on the N69.

    *Ok more like a quarter, but you get my drift
    M20/N21 to Adare is barely shorter than any additional road that would have to be built to link Foynes in to the N21, and the finished road would be significantly longer than using the N69 - so what would be the point? No cost savings (CPOs are still expensive), results in a longer journey, and sections of the N69 still need an upgrade for safety?


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  • Sections of that road are excellent and overall it's not too bad with long wide sections. Cannot figure out how this could be a priority (for funds) over Adare bypass, I sincerely hope it isn't either.




  • Tragedy wrote: »
    M20/N21 to Adare is barely shorter than any additional road that would have to be built to link Foynes in to the N21, and the finished road would be significantly longer than using the N69 - so what would be the point? No cost savings (CPOs are still expensive), results in a longer journey, and sections of the N69 still need an upgrade for safety?

    The point is that it kills 2 birds with the one stone, Adare bypass is badly needed and has been for decades. The idea of building a new road just a few miles north of Adare, and not having that in some way incorporate a bypass is madness to me.

    And I wouldn't call a continuation of the motorway to include an Adare northern bypass towards Foynes (approx 25 miles) "significantly longer" than the current n69 or its replacement road (20 miles).

    The idea of a link road to Foynes from an Adare bypass was mentioned many times by local figures a few years ago, before they changed to a southern bypass and back again, thats where my thinking is coming from. I'd love a brand new N69 AND an Adare bypass, but both are not feasible for the near future.




  • road_high wrote: »
    Sections of that road are excellent and overall it's not too bad with long wide sections. Cannot figure out how this could be a priority (for funds) over Adare bypass, I sincerely hope it isn't either.

    AFAIK the money would come from the TEN-T fund, which is an EU fund for strategic transport links. They hope to tap this fund to help develop the port and its infrastructure, which includes the N69.
    The N69 isn't being prioritized for funding over the Adare bypass, simply the Adare bypass wouldn't qualify for TEN-T funding.




  • road_high wrote: »
    Sections of that road are excellent and overall it's not too bad with long wide sections. Cannot figure out how this could be a priority (for funds) over Adare bypass, I sincerely hope it isn't either.
    I like the N69 and in general it's a good road, it has some pretty nasty sections though, that I've seen plenty of accidents on (including two overturned cars somehow).

    The Ferry Bridge and the next junction/corner to the West in particular spring to mind.
    RikkFlair wrote: »
    The point is that it kills 2 birds with the one stone, Adare bypass is badly needed and has been for decades. The idea of building a new road just a few miles north of Adare, and not having that in some way incorporate a bypass is madness to me.
    It doesn't kill two birds with one stone. It kills one bird with one stone, then attemps to kill another bird with a different stone that spectacularly misses the mark.
    And I wouldn't call a continuation of the motorway to include an Adare northern bypass towards Foynes (approx 25 miles) "significantly longer" than the current n69 or its replacement road (20 miles).
    End of M20 to Rathkeale: 14km
    Straight road from Rathkeale to Askeaton: 8.3km

    M7>Foynes via N69: 32km
    M7>Foynes via M20/R518: 48km


    So your grand idea, is to have a route 50% longer that no-one will use?

    Ok so.

    Protip: The N69 is a road improvement scheme, not a road replacement scheme.




  • RikkFlair wrote: »
    The point is that it kills 2 birds with the one stone, Adare bypass is badly needed and has been for decades. The idea of building a new road just a few miles north of Adare, and not having that in some way incorporate a bypass is madness to me.

    It wouldn't really save, you'd have to seriously upgrade the M20 in future then when the route to Cork is brought into the modern era. Traffic from N21, N69 and M20 southwards?

    And having to upgrade junctions is not as good as having a seperate route to the N7/ring road.


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  • Tragedy wrote: »
    I like the N69 and in general it's a good road, it has some pretty nasty sections though, that I've seen plenty of accidents on (including two overturned cars somehow).

    The Ferry Bridge and the next junction/corner to the West in particular spring to mind.


    It doesn't kill two birds with one stone. It kills one bird with one stone, then attemps to kill another bird with a different stone that spectacularly misses the mark.


    End of M20 to Rathkeale: 14km
    Straight road from Rathkeale to Askeaton: 8.3km

    M7>Foynes via N69: 32km
    M7>Foynes via M20/R518: 48km


    So your grand idea, is to have a route 50% longer that no-one will use?

    Ok so.

    Protip: The N69 is a road improvement scheme, not a road replacement scheme.

    I agree that any route via the N21/M20 will be longer than following the N69 but using some basic measurements I have calculated the following lengths. Best to compare options with a common start and end point, hence Foynes and M7 Junction 1 (Rossbrien Interchange) as majority of trucks from Foynes would be heading towards (M20 South, N24 and M7 East rather than N18 west). Any new route from N69 to N21 would take a more direct route (SE) than the R518 which goes North / South.

    A) Foynes to M7 J1 via N69 and N18 = 36km (32.5km new build)
    B) Foynes to M7 J1 via new road and N21/M20 = 43km (32.3km new build)

    Not a huge difference in journey time with advantage of 10km of 120kph M20. Also trucks heading south via the N20 would have an advantage with option B. And M7 J1 (Rossbrien Interchange) is a free flow interchange with plenty of spare capacity as opposed to dumbbell junction at N18 Junction 2 where option A would dock, close to the entrance to tunnel (i.e. Dunkettle). Also picking up N21 traffic and improving their journey times would improve any cost benefit analysis.

    It will be interesting to see what they decide on.




  • Tragedy wrote: »
    End of M20 to Rathkeale: 14km
    Straight road from Rathkeale to Askeaton: 8.3km

    M7>Foynes via N69: 32km
    M7>Foynes via M20/R518: 48km


    So your grand idea, is to have a route 50% longer that no-one will use?

    Ok so.

    I can see where you're getting 48km from, I originally said the new road could follow the rail line - disregard that, forgot the rail line curves so much towards Rathkeale.

    I'm talking about a more or less straight route from north of adare towards Foynes, which is more like 40km in total from Limerick. The adare bypass would continue on for another mile or 2 til it joins the existing N21 which was the original plan.
    Tragedy wrote: »
    Protip: The N69 is a road improvement scheme, not a road replacement scheme.

    That hasn't been determined yet, all the press releases on this I'm seeing the words "proposed new road" being used.




  • According o today's Limerick Leader the NRA have given permission for a new road to Foynes. They have now got to decide what form it will take and the Port Company say they don't care what the route is as long as it's an improvement on the existing road.
    Interestingly they also say that they are committed to reopening the rail line and are spending €150'000 on the preliminary planning stage which will be concluded next year.




  • RikkFlair wrote: »
    I can see where you're getting 48km from, I originally said the new road could follow the rail line - disregard that, forgot the rail line curves so much towards Rathkeale.
    Following the rail line results in a route approx 43-44km long, with an 18km section linking a new N20 to Foynes.
    I'm talking about a more or less straight route from north of adare towards Foynes, which is more like 40km in total from Limerick. The adare bypass would continue on for another mile or 2 til it joins the existing N21 which was the original plan.
    A straight route from Adare to Foynes runs through three areas where the altitude goes from ~6-10m to ~40-50m high. It also has no existing roads and would cost huge amounts in
    a)CPOs
    b)Ancilliary roads to link newly split farms
    c)New roads to tie into existing R roads

    Fair enough if one is building a new motorway with a 40k AADT, but for a road that even if Foynes exploded, would still be in the single digits(000s)?

    Your proposed route is ~22km. The entire N69 to Foynes is 32km. I'm afraid that it still isn't making a whole lot of sense to build it. If the N69 didn't exist, it most certainly would (and would be the preferred option I'm sure), but one must also remember that the N69 and the N20 are heavily used by commuters, and putting even more traffic on the N20 to get into Limerick ... won't be pretty.




  • Any word on whether the consultants have been appointed yet?




  • RikkFlair wrote: »
    I'm talking about a more or less straight route from north of adare towards Foynes, which is more like 40km in total from Limerick. The adare bypass would continue on for another mile or 2 til it joins the existing N21 which was the original plan.

    I'd say it'd make more sense to follow the original N69 (roughly) to outside Mungret, and then put a new link in south to the link road for M20 J3 (Raheen) - big trumpet interchange with lots of spare capacity. Good way to distribute traffic that's Limerick-bound rather than Cork/N18/M7 bound. Traffic can come off on existing N69, R526/Local (for Raheen Ind Estate) or M20.

    The house opposite the link for M20 from R526 was for sale last year - original owner (who sold in boom time for over a million) bought it back for very very little. Pity NRA or local council didn't do forward planning - that roundabout is perfectly sited for a fourth arm giving a new link to N69.

    Link of area I'm talking about (R526/link roundabout in centre)

    EDIT: Maybe I should email someone with this idea?




  • Sounds doable, but how will it solve the problem of the N69?




  • cmonlad wrote: »
    Any word on whether the consultants have been appointed yet?


    Interviews were over a week ago, no word yet




  • Roughan O'Donovan/ AECOM appointed

    so
    Arup - Galway City Bypass
    RPS - N28 Ringaskiddy
    Atkins - Motorway Maintenance Contract
    Halcrow Barry - N11
    ROD/ AECOM Foynes to Limerick
    Jacobs - ?
    Mott Mc Donald - N25 New Ross Bypass

    pie nicely shared out............




  • Site updated.......

    "Limerick City & County Council has commenced the planning and design of the Foynes to Limerick Road Improvement Scheme. The scheme will provide a high quality road connection between the port of Foynes and Limerick, leading to reduced journey times, improved journey time reliability and improved safety between Foynes and Limerick for all road users......"

    http://www.foyneslimerick.ie/


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  • Hopefully as part of this the N(M?)69/N18 interchange is properly built




  • marno21 wrote: »
    Hopefully as part of this the N(M?)69/N18 interchange is properly built

    Looking at the study area, this is as likely to join the M20 as it is to join the N18. If it does join the N18 it will be at the current J2 on the Dock Road as there isn't room to build another junction.




  • Further updates on the project web site today with Public Consultation for the Route Corridor Options on Tuesday 10th March in South Court Hotel and Wednesday 11th March in Foynes Flying Boat Museum.




  • Wonder if this could be used as a sneaky way to get an Adare bypass built with a slight detour for Foynes traffic?




  • Oh without a doubt I'd say. They would be foolish not to take advantage of such a lifeline especially after the dogs dinner they made of the previous bypass attempt with that laughable southern route!




  • Vanquished wrote: »
    Oh without a doubt I'd say. They would be foolish not to take advantage of such a lifeline especially after the dogs dinner they made of the previous bypass attempt with that laughable southern route!

    Have to say the southern route was a strange one on its own but made some sense once it was tied in with M20 project.

    I would agree a northern bypass of Adare with a spur northwesterly towards the askeaton bypass would eliminate a lot of the sections with poor alignment. Maybe an online upgrade of askeaton bypass and the rest of the N69 to foynes?




  • pajoguy wrote: »
    Have to say the southern route was a strange one on its own but made some sense once it was tied in with M20 project.

    I don't think it made any sense whatsoever! A circuitous, meandering route linked to the proposed M20 via a crap stacked roundabout interchange was a dreadfully ill-conceived scheme. It was only chosen because it was the cheapest and easiest option. It was justifiably thrown out by An Bord Pleanala.




  • Vanquished wrote: »
    I don't think it made any sense whatsoever! A circuitous, meandering route linked to the proposed M20 via a crap stacked roundabout interchange was a dreadfully ill-conceived scheme. It was only chosen because it was the cheapest and easiest option. It was justifiably thrown out by An Bord Pleanala.

    I think it only got rejected because the M20 was pulled just before the Board was to make a decision.




  • Yeah, it never got to ABP stage. The M20 scheme was great looking except for the Adare part.


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  • pajoguy wrote: »
    I would agree a northern bypass of Adare with a spur northwesterly towards the askeaton bypass would eliminate a lot of the sections with poor alignment. Maybe an online upgrade of askeaton bypass and the rest of the N69 to foynes?

    I would imagine that this is what will be done. Given the size of the study area, it is very likely that the N21 and N69 will be combined for a good stretch.

    What type of road do we think it will be. WS2 with LILO junctions would probably suffice?


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