SYRIA WAR MEGATHREAD - Mod Note First Post

force eleven

The western powers already backing away from confrontation. This steak is done, stick a fork in it. Syria will continue to fight the civil war, Assad will win, and is winning, and we'll all be back to square one again - albeit less about 250,000 people.

Leftist

this war just doesn't have the same panache as the iraq war.

There just isn't the same sexiness about syria!?

clairefontaine

Leftist wrote: »

this war just doesn't have the same panache as the iraq war.

There just isn't the same sexiness about syria!?

It's not a republican sending in ships.

Leftist

clairefontaine wrote: »

It's not a republican sending in ships.

people don't really care outside of america tbh.

Kosovo was sexy. That was a democrat.

The middle east has been done to death. Move on to someplace else. The orient has been sitting pretty for far too long, send the septic tanks in and we can all watch them getting battered again :cool:

donegal_road

....

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Yes, I said the West HAVE been involved in these regions.... but you will find that these regions are largely peaceful today, never mind that your numbers are overinflated.

My numbers are accurate.

MonaPizza

jank wrote: »

What do the West get out of it by 'destroying' the Middle East? It looks as if the people who live in Middle East are quite capable of doing that themsleves by the looks of it.

Those who want to control the Middle East don't give a damn about the people who live there or what kind of conditions they have to endure. Are you not familiar with the term "divide and conquer"? It's a lot easier to control a place when the natives are at each other's throats than if they band together and fight the occupier.

Also, the 'Its all about Oil' is massively overblown in my opinion. Within the next few years, the US will be a net EXPORTER of energy, so why do they need to grab Iranian oil? Just for the sake of it cause they can?

So what? So what if they are to be a net exporter of "energy"? This is about controlling GLOBAL energy supplies. This is about stopping China from becoming the world's largest economy by blocking their access to Caspian Basin reserves. Doesn't matter if that oil and gas sits gathering dust in a warehouse just so long as the Chinese can't get it to fuel their economy. And if you control the global energy supply then you control what currency is needed to buy it, i.e. the dollar. Since the dollar was removed from the gold standard it's basically toilet paper that everyone has to accept or they can't fill up their tank.

Yes, and the place was paradise until those pesky Westerns entered the picture. You do know that the Ottoman Empire ruled this area for close to 400 years, so why not apportion any blame to them? Nobody is doubting or denying that the West have not fiddled with the Middle East but to blame them entirely for all that is wrong with the region is the usual anti-western hysteria who cant look at the problem in its whole. The West has fiddled in Europe, South America and Asia as well in the past 100 years but you don't see the level of violence in those regions as you do in the Middle East. There is something fundamentally wrong with the place and it would all kick off regardless if the West were involved or not in my opinion.

Look, mate, you just couldn't make a cogent argument with the "anti-west" dig, could you? Is it ever possible for apologists for imperialism to actually examine the facts without throwing in that little smear. It does your credibility zero favours.
But yes, empires have for centuries tried to conquer and control this region for it's strategic location and for it's logistical trading importance. I'm not denying that. Incidentally using the harmless little euphemism "fiddling" to try and water down American massacres in the region further worsens your credibility. And your banal description of innocent little American "fiddling" in other parts of the world and there not being the level of violence there is a comment of infantile proportions. There is something fundamentally wrong with the area? Well perhaps you could shed some light on what it is. You're damn right there's something wrong with the region. Too bad you can't see just what it is.
Western powers are jockeying to control the region regardless of how many they kill and that's the bottom line. The problem I have is with them saying they're doing it to "help" people and with naive people like you who believe them. I'd have a bit more respect if they just said "Look everyone, we're taking over this area so we can control the world. We will kill anything that walks or crawls to get our way". You might then have a problem with that. I wouldn't. You seem to look at the world as "Us = good. Them = bad" whereas it's more a case of "Powerful = bad. Weak = fucked"

Ah yes, blame the West for all that is wrong with the middle east. Suits your ideaology I suppose. Apportion no blame at all to Russia or China who have a strategic interest in the region or even the people who live in the region themselves. The idea that the Middle East was grand before the west got involved is ludicrous.

I think I've already addressed that throwaway comment.

MonaPizza

jank wrote: »

Yes, I said the West HAVE been involved in these regions.... but you will find that these regions are largely peaceful today, never mind that your numbers are overinflated.

Now this has to be one of the most ridiculous quips I've ever read.

"Yes, your honour. I understand the seriousness of the crime but I'd like to bring it to the court's attention the number of times my client DIDN'T drive home from work wasted on pills and alcohol and plough into a group of schoolkids at a bustop."

:pac:

MonaPizza

clairefontaine wrote: »

Your numbers are a little out there.

How so?
What numbers are "out there"?
That he forgot to mention 600,000 Filipinos?

jank

Nodin wrote: »

My numbers are accurate.

Source to say that 800,000 people died directly because of Western Intervention in Indonesia?

MonaPizza

Eight Ball wrote: »

Foil hat alert.

Beavis/Butthead alert

jank

MonaPizza wrote: »

Now this has to be one of the most ridiculous quips I've ever read.

"Yes, your honour. I understand the seriousness of the crime but I'd like to bring it to the court's attention the number of times my client DIDN'T drive home from work wasted on pills and alcohol and plough into a group of schoolkids at a bustop."

:pac:

What?

jank

MonaPizza wrote: »

Is it ever possible for apologists for imperialism to actually examine the facts without throwing in that little smear. It does your credibility zero favours.

Amazing you talk of examine facts when you offer none yourself in your anti-western tirade that amounts to a conspiracy theory. What next Lizard men?

MonaPizza

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I hate it when a thread is spoiled by facts.

Oh please!

It's when weasels like Blair, Sarkozy, Hillary, etc visit you for a cordial luncheon that you know you're fucked

sark_1852738c.jpg

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Source to say that 800,000 people died directly because of Western Intervention in Indonesia?

The US provided lists of communists and provided a "cloak of respectability" for the Suharto regime for decades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Indonesia

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Source to say that 800,000 people died directly because of Western Intervention in Indonesia?

You were talking about "western fiddling" earlier. Now its "directly because of Western Intervention"......I'd suggest unhanding those goal posts and backing away.

MonaPizza

jank wrote: »

Amazing you talk of examine facts when you offer none yourself in your anti-western tirade that amounts to a conspiracy theory. What next Lizard men?

What anti-western tirade?
What conspiracy theory?

The stated agenda of Western powers (with the US at the helm) is to control the global energy resources and with it the global economy.

The washed-down version for the bottom feeders is that they're "fightin' for freedom"

Fratton Fred

MonaPizza wrote: »

What anti-western tirade?
What conspiracy theory?

The stated agenda of Western powers (with the US at the helm) is to control the global energy resources and with it the global economy.

The washed-down version for the bottom feeders is that they're "fightin' for freedom"'

Thank God NATO are in Afghanistan, how would the west survive without securing all that lovely dust and sand.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

The US provided lists of communists and provided a "cloak of respectability" for the Suharto regime for decades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Indonesia

500,000 != 800,000

Liamario

I would have said that they should be left to their own devices until the gas attack and seeing the bodies of small children lined up and lifeless.

They went too far and now there needs to be some form of intervention. The attitude that it's none of our business only goes so far. This is a very small planet and at some point, we have to take responsibility for the welfare of others where that can't take responsibility themselves.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

You were talking about "western fiddling" earlier. Now its "directly because of Western Intervention"......I'd suggest unhanding those goal posts and backing away.

Em, your the one that is posting falsehoods. I suggest you learn to get off that high horse of yours now and again.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

500,000 != 800,000

Estimates range from 500,000 to well over a million. I went for 800,000 as a compromise.

jank

MonaPizza wrote: »

What anti-western tirade?
What conspiracy theory?

The stated agenda of Western powers (with the US at the helm) is to control the global energy resources and with it the global economy.

The washed-down version for the bottom feeders is that they're "fightin' for freedom"

As I said, a conspiracy theory... There is a forum here for you you know.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Estimates range from 500,000 to well over a million. I went for 800,000 as a compromise.

What estimate?

karma_

jank wrote: »

Em, your the one that is posting falsehoods. I suggest you learn to get off that high horse of yours now and again.

Ironic when you consider that you have pretty much stepped off a high horse onto an ivory tower.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Em, your the one that is posting falsehoods. I suggest you learn to get off that high horse of yours now and again.

What "falsehood" have I posted?

You originally stated

The West has fiddled in............

this then changed to

directly because of Western Intervention

...it's clear you're trying a goal post shift.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

What estimate?

Estimates by various parties of the death toll in Indonesia.

clairefontaine

Liamario wrote: »

I would have said that they should be left to their own devices until the gas attack and seeing the bodies of small children lined up and lifeless.

They went too far and now there needs to be some form of intervention. The attitude that it's none of our business only goes so far. This is a very small planet and at some point, we have to take responsibility for the welfare of others where that can't take responsibility themselves.

The problem is the same old problem. To what ends? To what results? With what outcomes?

They aren't doing anything because they don't know what to do. Right now its just kinda sorta evidence, they can't confirm who used the weapons.

What's the west going to do, just drop a few bombs and hope for the best?

We know how that works out.

donegal_road

Great speech by George Galloway today in the House of Commons speaking for the 89% who are against strikes on Syria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIddCee7P0c

Jonny7

Well looks like the Brits are almost down and out- big split between Tories and Labour over this