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nesf

Ramza wrote: »

So accurate

Apart from the Kolento part though, he had no part at all in pioneering this deck or even bringing it mainstream, it was around even in the beta where I believe a player called Apollo first was credited with creating it. Lots of players have since then too. Hyped AFAIK was the first person to really bring it more competitive and mainstream by adding Azure Drakes and other cards. Nerd rant over

A combo deck with a strong card draw mechanism and enough control cards to survive til the combo is assembled isn't anything new. Having such a deck in a game with nothing resembling Counterspell or other Instants though...

Ramza

nesf wrote: »

A combo deck with a strong card draw mechanism and enough control cards to survive til the combo is assembled isn't anything new. Having such a deck in a game with nothing resembling Counterspell or other Instants though...

I know it's nothing new but ATM in Hearthstone it's the only deck of it's kind really. It's why Freeze/Secrets mage is one of few hard counters to this deck, (which is also another non interactive cancer deck, so annoying, though I can't talk!) it really is tough for the miracle player to work around.

I know I'm likely preaching to the choir here, but just my 2 cents : It's more than crazy cycling and draw that make the deck silly, IMO I think Miracle poses the same problem that pre-nerf Hunter did, it's non interactive for the most part with the board, and can punish people for playing minions with the likes of sap and cheap removal (also, Preparation is nuts). Gadgetzan > Conceal is also VERY hard to deal with in effect. Off the top of my head, spell power blade flurry + deadly poison (which funnily enough is rogue itself!) works, I think Tinkmaster (which is again a risk, and if someone is teching in a Tinkmaster in their deck to deal with stuff, that's like an automatic plus :P) and Brawl are also answers, but never guaranteed. The warrior also needs a minion on table at turn 6 as most Warriors don't run 1 drops. It's really silly. Priest can auchenai + circle but I've very rarely been hit by that, and none run mass dispel. The risk/reward for concealing gadgetzan turn 5 is crazy. Also Leeroy I can see being nerfed, shadowstep is a bit much atm too IMO. People playing taunts? Nope, sap Really lame. There's plenty of candidates for the nerf bat in miracle, the card draw is crazy but there's much more going for it than that

Miracle with bad draw beats itself, nothing worse than a bad hand for 5 turns, insta loss. Though when piloted right the deck has a 80% winrate IMO, it's just too much. I will however say the deck is hard to master, you need to plan turns well and know when to use certain cards, I'm no expert and still make a tonne of mistakes, however difficulty does not justify the OPness

PS: I added some of the people from this board to my list, would love some games sometime

Tar.Aldarion

Tried out making miracle deck, never played it before and dont have all the cards, it's ridiculously fun. Also a big counter is having a lot of taunts, it's like Im new to the game and picking every taunt card all over again. sunfuryx2, senjinx2, defender x2 etc, still tis a bit silly.

Ramza

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Tried out making miracle deck, never played it before and dont have all the cards, it's ridiculously fun. Also a big counter is having a lot of taunts, it's like Im new to the game and picking every taunt card all over again. sunfuryx2, senjinx2, defender x2 etc, still tis a bit silly.

It is very fun I just got the dream hand with Miracle and stomped some secret mage



Taunts get dealt with easily with miracle, it's crazy. It has such crazy cheap removal :eek:

I added you in game too mate, if you wanna have some late night games

Tar.Aldarion

you can crush my miracle, i have no idea what im doing

Ramza

Hmm currently wondering if I should DE two Golden Legends (Ysera, which I have a normal one of, and Malygos) to make two golden preps for my rogue deck. I have every card I need and I now only care for golden cards, so dust with regards to making new cards is not an issue. I want a blinged out golden deck so bad haha, but I only have one Malygos and not sure if I should DE him I literally don't use him but still.

nesf

Ramza wrote: »

I know it's nothing new but ATM in Hearthstone it's the only deck of it's kind really. It's why Freeze/Secrets mage is one of few hard counters to this deck, (which is also another non interactive cancer deck, so annoying, though I can't talk!) it really is tough for the miracle player to work around.

I know I'm likely preaching to the choir here, but just my 2 cents : It's more than crazy cycling and draw that make the deck silly, IMO I think Miracle poses the same problem that pre-nerf Hunter did, it's non interactive for the most part with the board, and can punish people for playing minions with the likes of sap and cheap removal (also, Preparation is nuts). Gadgetzan > Conceal is also VERY hard to deal with in effect. Off the top of my head, spell power blade flurry + deadly poison (which funnily enough is rogue itself!) works, I think Tinkmaster (which is again a risk, and if someone is teching in a Tinkmaster in their deck to deal with stuff, that's like an automatic plus :P) and Brawl are also answers, but never guaranteed. The warrior also needs a minion on table at turn 6 as most Warriors don't run 1 drops. It's really silly. Priest can auchenai + circle but I've very rarely been hit by that, and none run mass dispel. The risk/reward for concealing gadgetzan turn 5 is crazy. Also Leeroy I can see being nerfed, shadowstep is a bit much atm too IMO. People playing taunts? Nope, sap Really lame. There's plenty of candidates for the nerf bat in miracle, the card draw is crazy but there's much more going for it than that

Miracle with bad draw beats itself, nothing worse than a bad hand for 5 turns, insta loss. Though when piloted right the deck has a 80% winrate IMO, it's just too much. I will however say the deck is hard to master, you need to plan turns well and know when to use certain cards, I'm no expert and still make a tonne of mistakes, however difficulty does not justify the OPness

PS: I added some of the people from this board to my list, would love some games sometime

It's mostly an issue with the rest of the meta. There are straight counters to Miracle Rogue, the issue is they are pretty weak against everything else that's common at the moment. Figuring out a deck that's good enough against Miracle Rogue yet not too weak to the others is tough. People bitch about Zoo but really it's not too bad, all the control decks just shifted their curves down a bit and added some more board clear and things were in balance at the top at least.

The biggest problem gameplay wise as Miracle Rogue is that you usually feel the other player is just playing against the order of the cards in his deck rather than anything you're doing normally. :P

Ramza

nesf wrote: »

The biggest problem gameplay wise as Miracle Rogue is that you usually feel the other player is just playing against the order of the cards in his deck rather than anything you're doing normally. :P

Solitaire

But yeah, the counters to miracle rogue are kinda bad against the general field of the meta, in tournament play they would make for great counter picks but probably an instant loss after because you'd be counter picked back

Interesting how Miracle was adapted and shaped to actually be the hard counter to the midrange hunter, when that was all the craze. Now that that's gone, Miracle has now taken it's place as the deck to complain about. Interesting to say the least

Nody

I find the tree + force combo of druid far more annoying then a miracle druid myself.

nesf

Nody wrote: »

I find the tree + force combo of druid far more annoying then a miracle druid myself.

I don't mind it too much. It's *always* 14 damage + what they have on the board minus whatever taunts I have because of the mana cost. I *always* can have a reasonable expectation as to their damage output next turn, barring double innervate nonsense. Miracle Rogue combos on the other hand vary over a huge range and aren't anywhere near as predictable and more importantly they do a lot more than 14 damage on an empty board for them.

Nody

nesf wrote: »

I don't mind it too much. It's *always* 14 damage + what they have on the board minus whatever taunts I have because of the mana cost. I *always* can have a reasonable expectation as to their damage output next turn, barring double innervate nonsense. Miracle Rogue combos on the other hand vary over a huge range and aren't anywhere near as predictable and more importantly they do a lot more than 14 damage on an empty board for them.

Except when they combine with 2x force, or the other general buff +1 to everything, or claw etc. That's what makes it so damn annoying; hit 15 health and you're dead with 95% of all druids which makes half your health pool not to matter (and often that's going to be 20+ for one turn kills). It's Pyroblast on drugs and I expect it will get nerfed accordingly (mana cost increase).

nesf

Nody wrote: »

Except when they combine with 2x force, or the other general buff +1 to everything, or claw etc. That's what makes it so damn annoying; hit 15 health and you're dead with 95% of all druids which makes half your health pool not to matter (and often that's going to be 20+ for one turn kills). It's Pyroblast on drugs and I expect it will get nerfed accordingly (mana cost increase).

2 x force is a 3 card combo, 2 x force + SR is a 5 card one, Power of the Wild + FoN + SR needs an innervate and is another 4 card combo. Pyroblast is just one card you really cannot compare it to a combo of this size. Druid lacks any good *abusable* draw engine. Ancient of Lore is wonderful but it's no concealed Auctioneer with a handful of zero or low cost spells. Really, if you're asking for this to be nerfed you're being a bit silly. A druid deck that runs 2 x FoW, 2 x SR, 2 x PoW is cutting quite a few other cards to fit these in. Further the second SR and PoWs all tend to be used for non combo purposes because you *cannot* rely on drawing innervate late and you almost never save innervate for a combo over getting an Ancient or Druid of the Claw or whatever out early. The reliable combo is FoN + SR, if they've pulled off 2 x FoN + SR + 2 x Innervate on you they've either gotten really lucky with card draws or you've been doing something really wrong (most likely not figuring out who was the control deck in the match-up). Versus Miracle Rogue where unless they don't draw either Auctioneer, it's very hard to stop them drawing enough cards to make it at least odds-on that they hit their combo.

It is bloody annoying when a druid gets a 4 card combo off on you sure. But it's exactly the same for almost all the classes. Give a shaman 4 cards of their choosing and you're in for a lot more than 15 damage. Ditto mages abusing Frost Lance. Almost all midrange decks have some low % to draw combo that very hard to deal with. Compare with Rogue who with Leeroy, 2 x Shadowstep and Cold Blood hits you for 22 damage, or 18 through a taunt if they have a Sap in hand. Think about how much easier it is to draw those cards with the Miracle Rogue's card draw compared to what a Druid can expect (one Wrath draw plus maybe double Ancient of Lore if they got lucky?) or Shaman or Mage.

Ramza

FoN + Savage Roar combo is fine. I run 2 copies of the combo in my ramp build for consistency, but sacrificing a 2 cards in a ramp build I feel can hurt my late game push but it's way more consistent. It's balanced. You can't compare it to Pyroblast as pyroblast is straight up burn for 10 damage no matter what state the board is in. Druid almost always will use the Lore for heal too, it's just a necessity in certain matchups. Druid's draw power is quite good but nothing comparable to rogues:, drakes, turn 10 wild growths, ancient of lore? 1 dmg wraths, nourish maybe, but you would never turn 5 nourish for cards, if you did that you are probably already in a huge winning position as turn 5 is quite important for druid I feel

Priest has turn 10 Velen + Mind Blast + Holy Smite for 14, does that need to be nerfed too? I suppose we'll have to nerf rockbiter weapon and al'akir while we're at it. Oh and Grommash and cruel taskmaster 10 mana combo for 12 too. See where I'm going with this? Situational late game finishers that involve multiple cards and a somewhat forgiving enemy board are fine (no big taunts etc). Miracle pushes it tho. Gadgetzan draws your whole deck while rogues can sap away big taunts and use cheap removal to clear up the board. Leeroy turn 9 does 22 dmg, that's insane. Turn 10, 26. Also, deadly poison is such a sick card too, not only does it help with cleanup, but it's potentially 10 damage to the face most games and synergises so well with blade flurry. It's why the deck is a little unbalanced at the minute because it punishes you for playing minions or taunts, and the burst is way more crazy than other decks

Tar.Aldarion

nesf

Silly Paladins, playing Tyrion at 10 mana without removal in hand against a priest.

Tar.Aldarion

Indeed and my thought steal on turn 2 stole truesilver and the other tyrion

nesf

RNGesus, save us all!

Ramza

Tar.Aldarion

I don't even own ysera

Nody

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I don't even own ysera

MC one, faceless one but I'm not sure on the third; did you MC his faceless or did you have two faceless in hand?

Tar.Aldarion

I dont recall but it was probably thoughtsteal. Play one, steal his, copy his etc.

The best was all teh dream cards I was getting to send his minions back to his hand for 0 mana, haha

Ramza

How to know you've won against Handlock :P

Gbear

I've nearly managed to cobble together 1600 dust. Who should I get?

So far I have Rag, Ysera, Al Akir and Antonidas.

I was thinking that the sensible option would be Thalnos or Cairne but Malygos or Velen might be more fun.

I don't play rush decks so I don't want Leroy.

Ramza

Gbear wrote: »

I've nearly managed to cobble together 1600 dust. Who should I get?

So far I have Rag, Ysera, Al Akir and Antonidas.

I was thinking that the sensible option would be Thalnos or Cairne but Malygos or Velen might be more fun.

I don't play rush decks so I don't want Leroy.

Depends what heroes you play and what your playstyle is. I'm guessing you like to play midrange and control. IMO Thalnos is currently the best all around legendary in the game, and I would rank Cairne second. Black Knight is also a great card, but it really only shines in the druid and handlock matchup IMO.

Thalnos is sick in a shaman deck, I'd be lost without him in mine. But Kobold is a cheap replacement for him. If control is more your playstyle I would recommend Cairne, he's a super sticky minion that will almost always be a 3 for 1 if the opponent lacks a silence. Even then he still gets you value as your bigger late game threats now pose more of a threat. He also has 4 health so he's super annoying for Priest to deal with

Ramza

Sorry for double post, but gotta share this awesomeness



**** zoo

Was praying he didn't have shieldbearer

Nody

Gbear wrote: »

I've nearly managed to cobble together 1600 dust. Who should I get?

So far I have Rag, Ysera, Al Akir and Antonidas.

I was thinking that the sensible option would be Thalnos or Cairne but Malygos or Velen might be more fun.

I don't play rush decks so I don't want Leroy.

I'd consider Alexstrassa; can be a life saver / dumper (great against for example priests if you slow play them). Black knight has uses even vs. aggro (take out a pesky taunted up minion to go for the juicy stuff and you'll laugh the day you drop it on a Paladin legendary guy, Savannah lion bumped by Dog Master or that Handlock giant he thinks will protect him; combine with Big Game Hunter to really piss off Handlocks :P ) as does Cairn (4/10 if not silenced) but more often then not he ends up silenced/hexed/fireballed to death from my experience (but that's a fireball/silence/hex that wont hit another of your minions). If you play warrior Hellscream is wonderful (oh hai! Met my 2x Leeroy minion) and of course Thalnos has some uses but honestly you can easily replace one of the effects with other 2 mana drops so not a top priority in my book.

Antonidas is really something you'd need to build your whole deck around and I'd in general always recommend neutral legendaries over class specific at the start (simply because you can use them with all classes).

Gbear

I mostly play Priest, Druid and Paladin (all control).

Does Thalnos get much play in Priest or Paladin?

Mage is my mess around class - having Antonidas kinda encourages it.
Part of me wants to add Malygos to the mix but I'm inclined to stick the more serious decks

On Alextrasza; I have a lot of healing in my decks (or have it available at any rate) so healing from 1-15 wouldn't get much play, I don't think.
And I generally chip away at the opponent so I doubt I'd get much use of the 30-15. I might throw it in for the sake of having an 8-8 if I got it in a pack but I'm not inclined to spend dust on it.

Anyone

Leaked pics of the Naxx expansion, dont look if you dont want some spoilers.

http://imgur.com/a/6zMrV#0

Tar.Aldarion

Gbear wrote: »

I mostly play Priest, Druid and Paladin (all control).

Does Thalnos get much play in Priest or Paladin?

Mage is my mess around class - having Antonidas kinda encourages it.
Part of me wants to add Malygos to the mix but I'm inclined to stick the more serious decks

On Alextrasza; I have a lot of healing in my decks (or have it available at any rate) so healing from 1-15 wouldn't get much play, I don't think.
And I generally chip away at the opponent so I doubt I'd get much use of the 30-15. I might throw it in for the sake of having an 8-8 if I got it in a pack but I'm not inclined to spend dust on it.

Not in priest anyway, maybe in paladin, definitely in druid.

Ramza

Do not craft alex if all you want is an 8/8. Ironbark protector does that but IMO Alex is terrible in this meta ; she's useful in one deck and that's Freeze Mage atm. That's the only deck she really sees play in. She's heavily fallen out of flavor from handlock and from control warrior, just in general she's fallen out of flavor, the meta is way too bursty. Most handlocks I face don't run her anymore, although she is still good in handlock, but overall she only shines in 2 decks imo. There's better options for a legendary and even better options for an 8/8 body. Plus she will get BGH more times than not

I think Black Knight is way too slow vs aggro, it does help clean up a defender of argus'd minion , but 9/10 he's a 6 mana yeti. He's too slow for aggro, but he fits really well in druid decks. I'd take sunwalker over TBK anyday for aggro. I think TBK is a super good tech card vs handlock and ramp druid. Overall he's a good control card. Basically the first person to TBK Druid of the claw 9/10 will win the druid mirror. That's pretty much how valkuable he is in that matchup. Depends on the meta and what you face. If you face a tonne of aggro, you'd swap him for a sunwalker. If control, you swap him back in. Like BGH for example. Overall it depends on what you're facing, so I wouldn't recommend TBK tbh, but he is a great card still. Also, if you play druid, Mark of the wild on an enemy minion and then TBK that same enemy minion is 8 mana pseudo removal,expensive but can be helpful. But I don't think that's justice enough to craft him!

Since you play druid and control paladin I am going to recommend Cairne. Thalnos gets play in most midrange decks, control decks he's usually a toss up between him and another good 2 slot card. But yes dome lists have him, some don't. For control decks though, I feel Cairne outshines thalnos and is a rly nice staple 6 drop that sticks. Great in control. Sunwalker and cairne for 2 6 drops in any control deck is great IMO. BGH will help with the handlock matchup, so I don't think TBK is a necessity right now. I would recommend him as your next legendary maybe but for now I would definitely go cairne