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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1
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Ken has called it spot on.
Would love to know what the players themselves think of these tactics we have seen at Senior and U21. Doubt they are too impressed themselves, but after last years happenings I'm sure they don't wont to rock the boat again.
Disappointed in Queally as he has done some job with Passage but in his 3 years in charge of Waterford minor and U21 teams his only victory as a manager is against Kerry at minor level.
Time for a new senior and under 21 manager next year before we destroy a group of good young hurlers with a lot of potential.0 -
lets call a spade a spade aswell, that was a dive to get the cork lad sent off!0
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Actually it was infact Cork who brought in the sweeper first in this game. After Waterford had got the couple of early goal chances they brought back one of their wing forwards leaving one of our half backs free, hence De Burca playing the sweeper role. Impossible really going man for man once the opposition uses a sweeper as it would severely crowd out our forward line and leave far too much space for the Cork forwards so the management had no real choice but to play this way. Just something to think about before everyone jumps on the managements backs rather than see the whole picture.
So that explains why we had 2 v 5 in the forwards?0 -
Actually it was infact Cork who brought in the sweeper first in this game. After Waterford had got the couple of early goal chances they brought back one of their wing forwards leaving one of our half backs free, hence De Burca playing the sweeper role. Impossible really going man for man once the opposition uses a sweeper as it would severely crowd out our forward line and leave far too much space for the Cork forwards so the management had no real choice but to play this way. Just something to think about before everyone jumps on the managements backs rather than see the whole picture.
I agree Cork plundered a couple of goals and plenty of points with only 2/3 forwards in the Waterford half. What is the difference... quality... We were shocking tonight, management first as stated above in fairness, but at least 10 players were just not good enough. No matter how bad the system is there was no one to field aerial ball or win dirty ball on ground. There was a few played out of position for sure but the players were also not good enough. We should have scored 3 goals in first half and at least one of theirs was handed to them. Ye can't blame management for everything...even tho I would done things differently sometimes its just up to the players and it was not good enough. No leaders there tonight.
Exceptions and there always is
Austin Gleeson was quality but Cork had him surrounded, T de B surely had to be on Cadigan surely FFS, Donnelly but he ended up in midfield like everyone else, Barry in goal was solid0 -
I agree Cork plundered a couple of goals and plenty of points with only 2/3 forwards in the Waterford half. What is the difference... quality... We were shocking tonight, management first as stated above in fairness, but at least 10 players were just not good enough. No matter how bad the system is there was no one to field aerial ball or win dirty ball on ground. There was a few played out of position for sure but the players were also not good enough. We should have scored 3 goals in first half and at least one of theirs was handed to them. Ye can't blame management for everything...even tho I would done things differently sometimes its just up to the players and it was not good enough. No leaders there tonight.
Exceptions and there always is
Austin Gleeson was quality but Cork had him surrounded, T de B surely had to be on Cadigan surely FFS, Donnelly but he ended up in midfield like everyone else, Barry in goal was solid
Agreed. Burke is normally our man marker in the senior but yet he wasn't put on Cadogan tonight? 3.12 scored by the cork inside line,3.08 from play I think and yet we persevered with the same personnel. Agreed we had no leaders,agreed we played like individuals at times but there's no leadership coming from the line,no positive tactics to an extent we hadn't a clue what we were doing for a finish. Kearney seemed to be doing ok when started at midfield but when shoved in corner forward he saw no ball. Ah look we could go on all night but it still comes down to the fact it needs an overhaul. Credit to Cork aswell though they were good tonight and one gaping aspect I saw was they were much more physically stronger than us,and vitally most could win there own ball. Couldn't say the same about too many of our fellas!0 -
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What an absolute shambles tonight. It confirms one issue for me, we now have a serious problem of what is happening to our players between minor and U21. We are turning good minor teams into really poor U21 teams. We are not just being beaten in U21, we're being hammered. Thats serious beatings now against Cork twice and against Clare in the first round in the last 4/5 years. Some serious questions need to be addressed if we are to progress.
As regards the game itself. A really poor evening for Waterford manager Peter Queally. How can he justify maintaining that negative gameplan when we were 8/9 points down with about 10 minutes to go against 14 men? It made no sense at all. There were times when we had nobody at all within 30 yards of the Cork goal. It reminded me of the Cork replay a few weeks ago at times. The players must take blame too, fellas hitting aimless high balls from defence, forwards taking on the shot when a team mate was better positioned, even just the sense that Cork wanted it more.
It really is hard to see how these fellas that were so sh1t tonight will suddenly turn up and be on fire on Saturday evening v Wexford.0 -
Annie Oakes wrote: »lets call a spade a spade aswell, that was a dive to get the cork lad sent off!
Did you see what happened?0 -
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Cornerstoner wrote: »+1
They telling Breathnach to run to cover the extra man, some bull****! If they played 15 on 15 they wouldnt have had that problem
Breathnach was treated badly by the minor management three years ago as well. The way we treat young players in this county is shocking.0 -
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Deise Hurler wrote: »Would love to know what the players themselves think of these tactics we have seen at Senior and U21. Doubt they are too impressed themselves, but after last years happenings I'm sure they don't wont to rock the boat again.
why not? they had the balls to do it last year.. shouldnt be one rule for one manager another for another. Funny thing is theyd actually get plenty of backing from the public this year were they to do the same... theyd have mine anyway!!!0 -
Its a given now I suppose that queally won't be in the hot seat next year so what candidates are likely to succeed him?
Sean Power
Liam O Connor
Jimmy Meaney
Derek Lyons
Ken McGrath(Health permitting)/Tony Browne
Paul Flynn
Sean Prendergast
Any other suggestions? James O Connor maybe? Would imagine it would not be something he'd want to be connected with as id imagine he has his sights set on the top job!0 -
Disastrous outcome, to be beaten while performing well is one thing, to produce a performance where one tacticle switch by cork (sweeper dropped behind half backs) transforms our approach and completely baffles our players and management is hard to fathom. We have huge issues with how brittle we are, the body language once cadegon got the first goal was alarming. To me it looks like we have no plan to counteract a sweeper system, we have no idea how to utilise the sweeper system ourselves and a really talented group of hurlers are playing as if they have no natural instinct for the game. Our coaching at adult level is actually decimating the confidence these guys arrive with. It's very hard to understand.0
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Its a given now I suppose that queally won't be in the hot seat next year so what candidates are likely to succeed him?
Sean Power
Liam O Connor
Jimmy Meaney
Derek Lyons
Ken McGrath(Health permitting)/Tony Browne
Paul Flynn
Sean Prendergast
Any other suggestions? James O Connor maybe? Would imagine it would not be something he'd want to be connected with as id imagine he has his sights set on the top job!
I'd go outside the county. We haven't got the quality of coaches here the proof is in the pudding. We need someone with a winning mentality who knows what it takes0 -
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I'd go outside the county. We haven't got the quality of coaches here the proof is in the pudding. We need someone with a winning mentality who knows what it takes
Agree with you totally. What I should have said on my last post was that seeing there's no way the board will fund an outside manager for the u21 are these our best options?
I still think there's hugh potential in these players but they need decent /proper leadership from an experienced coach/manager. Our management couldn't see basic switches that needed to be made and definitely had no game plan to counteract the sweeper system. I'm dreading sat night if it goes wrong because this site will go into meltdown!!0 -
all over before it began ,management should be barred from Walsh Park ,or at least be brought to the nearest Garda station and charged with bringing the game into disrepute.and finally REFUNDS under the consumer satisfaction act,oh while were there scrap the county board or at least deport them to innisfree (i dont know what the people of innisfree done)for life,other than that send them off to the other counties in munster to level the playing field #****edup0
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5 years now is it without a Waterford win at U-21?
The amount of talk we keep hearing about Waterford's fabled underage hurlers and yet yer U-21's take this beating off of what is regarding as a middling Cork team?
Last year's Minor win looks like a blip and things are actually looking quite dark for yer senior team.0 -
Having been awake all bloody night thinking about the game I am absolute fit to be tied. If one person in Walsh Park last night said it a 1000 did, we are so negative it is ridiculous. Our most potent threat in the forwards this year has been Dunford and we play him mid-field - you didn't see Cork bring Cadogan out did you.
Like our Senior team, we are spending more time on tactics than team work. Management will be bleating on the radio as they did in the papers all week about not getting enough time to prepare with the team and yet they come up with a high risk, complex strategy of a running game, totally focused on possession, that is until we tried to deliver a ball to the forwards where we are outnumbered 5 to 2 more often than not. Every time I listen to our management at Senior and U21, they are talking about bringing the ball into contact, breaking the tackle off loading the ball, what the f..k are they rugby coaches.
We had ball winners on the became last night DJ Foran, Seamus Keating and did we use them no, we had a really effective man marker did we use him no. We lacked physicality and yet we tried to run every ball instead of moving it fast into space. In the first 10 minutes we missed 3 goals and three points by lack of team work i.e. not giving the ball to the man in a better position, we had Cork in trouble. They make a single switch to try and counteract our dominance and we change the team completely, we basically sh1t on ourselves.
I am now looking to Saturday night with dread, decent never mind top teams can smell fear and at this moment in time our "tactics" stink of fear. We have underage teams that have competed consistently over the last 7 years in Tony Forristal and Minor Finals and they turn into disasters at U-21 level. Remember Clare two years ago.
Our county board should be tied together and dumped in a really deep hole, for the way our U21s have performed over the last number of years. We looked at last year as a moral victory, blaming the sending off when in fact that game was there to be won, it was our tactics on the night cost us, end of.
I have spent almost 40 years following Waterford and have been well used to beatings and disappointments, but this year has been a new low for me. We had sides with far less talent that got beatings but not because of fear.
I doubt the Derek McGrath or any of his management team read the likes of these boards or are less likely to listen to what is said, but in Walsh Park last night and also against Laois, two weeks ago the anger amongst supporters, many of whom know their hurling inside out, was incredible. Genuine concerned supporters talking about not traveling to Nolan Park because they are sick to the teeth of what they are seeing, negative scared stupid high risk tactics.
I will leave it on this, the negative tactics employed at Senior and U21 level have failed, they have resulted in four absolute "thrashings" as quoted on RTE last night, they have undermined the confidence of a glorious generation of young hurlers and they have alienated a huge portion of loyal and dedicated supporters. Enough is Enough. Gerald McCarthy came to Waterford in the late 90s and got us to throw off this subservient attitude, got us to believe in ourselves and to hurl without fear, Justin McCarthy carried on this work, they brought that Cork attitude to our team, and then came Davy, negative and destructive. Michael Ryan gave us a brief reprieve and now we have the current management.
Look at the facts, under Gerald, Justin and Michael Ryan who encouraged us to hurl, while we suffered defeats, we got very little in the way of beatings. Under Davy and McGrath using defensive negative tactics we have been absolutely hammered by Kilkenny (2) Tipp, Clare and Cork
Time to tear up the current script, i would see us go down giving it a lash and believing in ourselves than cowering in the corner afraid of been beating. Do it before it is to late and supporters abandon ship.0 -
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I prefer to get hammered 15v15 and have a right lash...
I am totally tuned off by this negative stuff, I hate it when we do it
What's going wrong from minor to u21? (A few years ago when M Shans minor team got hammered by Cork I was saying what is going wrong from Tony Forristal to Minor)
What is going wrong from the fitzgibbon earlier in the year (when a lot of this U21 team performed well against other u21s from other counties) to July?
Maybe we only have the resources to focus on minor and senior??
How would the U21 preparation compare with the minor?
Also why aren't the managers who follow these teams all the way through from minor allowed to stay with them at U21?? They know the players inside out, but they know the players from other counties inside out too, they are playing against them for 10 years at that stage!!!0 -
Its a given now I suppose that queally won't be in the hot seat next year so what candidates are likely to succeed him?
Sean Power
Liam O Connor
Jimmy Meaney
Derek Lyons
Ken McGrath(Health permitting)/Tony Browne
Paul Flynn
Sean Prendergast
Any other suggestions? James O Connor maybe? Would imagine it would not be something he'd want to be connected with as id imagine he has his sights set on the top job!
Whether we get an outside manager or one of our own for both the Senior and U21 jobs next year the most important thing is that the manager has the right philosophy about the game. McGrath and Queally obviously overthink everything and are over complicating things, which is leading to such underperforming from our teams. JJ Doyle would be a good shout for the Senior managers job. Took wexford camogie teams to multiple All Ireland's and has now just taken wexford under 21s to their second Leinster under 21 in a row. Young manager who gets his teams playing good positive winning hurling. Impresses me every time i see him. Two people who also seem to have the right outlook are Ken and Paul Flynn so would love to see them get involved in some capacity. Sean Power deserves a shot at the Under 21 position next year.0 -
lets call a spade, a spade here, as whilst i would never like to see any managemant team that sent that team onto the pitch last night, set them up to play like they played, were unable to get the defensive matchups correct, told our sweeper to "go up in the forwards" like an u12 game, subbed micheal harney to bring on another wing back when the game was done, left young daly to be hung, drawn and quartered, told wing forwards to mark wing backs, and on and on and on, and finally made excuses yesterday prior to the game, in charge of any other side ever again.
You still have to question the maturity , desire and want of alot of the players. Exceptions, Roche had a good game, looked confident and strong and made good decisions, tadgh de burca hit alot of ball but was sweeper and should be doing so , so i won't question that, but he looked tired all game , however in the last 5/10 min when he pushed on he won some ball but looked harnessed all night up to that, colin dunford and gavin o brien started like a house on fire great first half, dunford set up alot of scores, and gavin picked two beautiful points, no idea where they went after the break, when young donnolly moved out to midfield he looked good, showed alot more pace and hurling than i thought he had so esentially a positive, Kieran power when introduced showed an ability to drive on, and a bit of cutting that we lacked all night how this lad could not have started , i think he should be playing senior, but will probably slip through the cracks now as he is not a tippy tappy big club hurler, and barry in goal made good saves but his puck outs both short and long were piss poor.I thought our minor centre back from last year was easily our best forward, but again did not kill himself, but he is a centre back and needs to go back there i think if we had him centre back last night his reading of the game his striking and hurling brain would have controlled alot of the ****e that was going on all around the half back line, the indecision the failure to win ball, the failure to stop the ball, the two waterford men going up for the ball and the cork man winning it, the failure to win the breaking ball as we had the extra man and sweeper[and ten ****ing points down, and lets beef up the half backline call], all that might have improved if we stopped playing ****ing backs as forwards as it allows us to be more defensive.
Now here is the point, we have tried this defensive system for a bit now , in both senior and in the u21 last year and last night , and every defeat is worse because of it, because when the pressure comes on we either don't have the desire, ability,disicipline or nous to do it right, and because of it , it makes us look like ****ing clowns, for a start the defensive system don't in any way make us more compact in fact its easier to play around us in all age groups as players havent a clue who should be doing what, just look lost, which means we are either not working hard enough or we don't have the desire or commitment to give it everything to make it work, so maybe we say , ok we've tried it, did not work so lets move on, why do we have to react to what other counties are doing, because it has become the blue print now and yet when counties loosen the shackels they win all irelands.
However i don't think that will happen, so roll on saturday it will be a struggle and we might win because of last night but we're not going to improve unless we get out of this negative mindframe that we have not got enough hurlers in waterford to compete even when the opposition have a man down , to go 15 on 15.
I accept hurling has changed but last night even though cork first addopted the sweeper system, they played it like they knew what everyone knew what they were doing, whilst we played like what the jesus is going on here.
We had two or three guys last night on the senior team/panel who are either gone too fat/bulked up, or ran around like toolbags not affecting the game, or swanked ,or all three , did not want to put in a shift and i mean a proper shift to win that game, you can run all day but you might as well not stir if everything your doing means any possession you win, you lose straight away again, decision making was look at me jesus i'm brilliant, ah i'll get the next one, nah bit too far away, i'll get the ,,,,,, o game over ah **** it,i'm still brilliant.
I'm sickened look at our bench four guys possibly five that we all think will be playing senior within the next two years, and we bring on one recognised forward, who looks unfit, and cork had some numbers around the goal at that stage , so it was impossible, you would have thought to hit long range points was not part of the plan in the second half, where was d.j foran, How did he not get a run, will he not play in that defensive system when surly to win ball is the primary goal, it was ****e, and its pointless listening to excuses today as we squeezed them all out yesterday.0 -
do ye Waterford fans reckon last nights game changes the complexion to the game on Saturday? Will it bring a positive or negative reaction do you think? ie, will doubts now creep in losing a game so heavily with a man extra and being favorites, plus a fatigue factor? Or will it boost them and say we're not as bad as that and put up a spirited reaction to prove the naysayers wrong?
Its an interesting one to see the mentality of the team now and if it is strong or frail. I dont think it affects Wexfords preparation or perception at all, you can only worry about yourselves. But the Leinster final win obviously brought a boost to both players and supporters, whereas a cloud of doom now seems to be descending over Waterford so will they come out fighting or fall deeper into the shadows?0 -
do ye Waterford fans reckon last nights game changes the complexion to the game on Saturday? Will it bring a positive or negative reaction do you think? ie, will doubts now creep in losing a game so heavily with a man extra and being favorites, plus a fatigue factor? Or will it boost them and say we're not as bad as that and put up a spirited reaction to prove the naysayers wrong?
Its an interesting one to see the mentality of the team now and if it is strong or frail. I dont think it affects Wexfords preparation or perception at all, you can only worry about yourselves. But the Leinster final win obviously brought a boost to both players and supporters, whereas a cloud of doom now seems to be descending over Waterford so will they come out fighting or fall deeper into the shadows?
Its yet another example that the negative approach we insist on saddling on those players doesn't work. If they're allowed to play that kind of freedom could see them turn the corner, but Derekbis more likely to rhink "****, another defeat, MORE DEFENDERS"0 -
Lets have a supporters meeting in the Ramada!0
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do ye Waterford fans reckon last nights game changes the complexion to the game on Saturday? Will it bring a positive or negative reaction do you think? ie, will doubts now creep in losing a game so heavily with a man extra and being favorites, plus a fatigue factor? Or will it boost them and say we're not as bad as that and put up a spirited reaction to prove the naysayers wrong?
Its an interesting one to see the mentality of the team now and if it is strong or frail. I dont think it affects Wexfords preparation or perception at all, you can only worry about yourselves. But the Leinster final win obviously brought a boost to both players and supporters, whereas a cloud of doom now seems to be descending over Waterford so will they come out fighting or fall deeper into the shadows?
That is the question. The worry I have from a Waterford point of view is the system being applied by management is suffocating these lads so much you wonder where the scope to bite back is going to come from. There is no room to express themselves on the field everything is structured its like 15 robots out on the field.0 -
That is the question. The worry I have from a Waterford point of view is the system being applied by management is suffocating these lads so much you wonder where the scope to bite back is going to come from. There is no room to express themselves on the field everything is structured its like 15 robots out on the field.
After last night it’s looking bleak for Saturday in Nolan Park. Both Peter Queally and Derek McGrath have proved this year to be out of their depth managing Waterford County teams. We know we are producing players to a high standard up to minor as you just don’t just reach 5 of the last 6 munster minor finals by accident. I don’t remember any minor team in the last 6 year’s playing this negative style hurling that Queally and McGrath have tried to force on the county teams. It’s now looking like we will lose many of the good players that we have coming through the underage set up because of this.
But negative hurling by having extra defenders and less forwards is not the only problem here. There is also a lack of team work been drilled into the players during training. You look at McGrath’s training and it is mainly individualism training they are doing. Players are overdoing hurling drills and not playing sufficient games between each other under conditions to improve their decision making with players around them. Look at Clare for example. We have beaten them at minor 6 times in the last 6 years, twice this year. However the man that masterminded their munster minor titles in 2010 and 2011 was promoted to managing the U21 county team in 2012, 2013 and 2014. They are going for 3 U21 all Irelands in a row this year.
The trainer is Paul Kinnerk and he has the opposite outlook to training compared to Derek McGrath. It’s all about teamwork and less about individualism training. Training involves playing modified games with about 7 on each team in confined spaces. Rules are introduced such as if a ball goes out of play it is hit back in to reduce time wasting, goal keeper has lots of solitors and pucks out the ball straight away again to keep players on their toes and avoid time wasting. This teamwork training is more effective in games where players are less likely to take on bad shots, running into tackles by going it alone, teammates not supporting a player by standing and watching with hands on the hip.
So I think there is 2 problems that Queally and McGrath have given us. One is negative hurling and the other is individualism training. Next manager we get has to come from outside the county as our own lads are out of their depth and manage with fear and panic which is destroying all the good work been done at underage.0 -
conditioned games wrote: »After last night it’s looking bleak for Saturday in Nolan Park. Both Peter Queally and Derek McGrath have proved this year to be out of their depth managing Waterford County teams. We know we are producing players to a high standard up to minor as you just don’t just reach 5 of the last 6 munster minor finals by accident. I don’t remember any minor team in the last 6 year’s playing this negative style hurling that Queally and McGrath have tried to force on the county teams. It’s now looking like we will lose many of the good players that we have coming through the underage set up because of this.
But negative hurling by having extra defenders and less forwards is not the only problem here. There is also a lack of team work been drilled into the players during training. You look at McGrath’s training and it is mainly individualism training they are doing. Players are overdoing hurling drills and not playing sufficient games between each other under conditions to improve their decision making with players around them. Look at Clare for example. We have beaten them at minor 6 times in the last 6 years, twice this year. However the man that masterminded their munster minor titles in 2010 and 2011 was promoted to managing the U21 county team in 2012, 2013 and 2014. They are going for 3 U21 all Irelands in a row this year.
The trainer is Paul Kinnerk and he has the opposite outlook to training compared to Derek McGrath. It’s all about teamwork and less about individualism training. Training involves playing modified games with about 7 on each team in confined spaces. Rules are introduced such as if a ball goes out of play it is hit back in to reduce time wasting, goal keeper has lots of solitors and pucks out the ball straight away again to keep players on their toes and avoid time wasting. This teamwork training is more effective in games where players are less likely to take on bad shots, running into tackles by going it alone, teammates not supporting a player by standing and watching with hands on the hip.
So I think there is 2 problems that Queally and McGrath have given us. One is negative hurling and the other is individualism training. Next manager we get has to come from outside the county as our own lads are out of their depth and manage with fear and panic which is destroying all the good work been done at underage.
Very informative post. Who would be your likely candidates from outside the county? Bear in mind now the IQ level you're dealing with at the top level!0 -
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Wexford will win handy I fear on Saturday.
Ah at least it's a day out and it's only up the road
Is it true that if the minors lose nxt Tuesday they will have to play Dublin the weekend of 26/27 July ?0
This discussion has been closed.
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