Am I the only one...

Sam Kade

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Maybe educate the masses that vote in these people first.

So who have you been voting for over the last few elections?

Nodin

donegal_road wrote: »

but Peter Mathews is a qualified Chartered Accountant, and has worked for Coopers & Lybrand and ICC Bank... he was a consultant on banking and finance with 30+ professional years experience.

.........

....so what? Did he open his yap before the collapse?

brandon_flowers

Sam Kade wrote: »

So who have you been voting for over the last few elections?

Nobody, I don't live in Ireland.

I wasn't in the country for the 2007 election due to work and I had completely immigrated by 2011. In the last local election I voted in about 6/7 years ago for a FG guy first, an independent second and a FF guy third choice. Historically I would have been a FF supporter due to family connections being involved but once the whole Green Party thing went sour and the arse fell out of the economy I have stopped supporting any political party in Ireland.

Roger_007

The greatest strength of democracy is that everyone has a vote, the greatest weakness of democracy is that everyone has a vote.
The Dail is an accurate reflection of the people who elected it. People who criticise politicians as being self-serving gombeens, they are really saying that the Irish electorate are self-serving gombeens. To listen to some of the commentary from media and the general public, you would imagine that the politicians arrived on a spaceship from an alien planet and took over the running of the country.
If we keep electing that same sort of representatives at every election, why do we keep expecting a different result?
Don't blame the politicians, blame the people who keep putting them there.

gozunda

Ok let's take a look at
Some of the current criteria for 'becoming' an elected politician:

•Belonging to a party political family dating back to civil war era

•Being a cute whore

•Having enough mullah / financial resources from your time as a local county councillor etc ( no qualifications required) to bribe/pay/embezzle your way into the current party political system

•Psychotic / sociopathic tendencies

•Procession of an enlarged ego and probable megalomania

•Record of parish pump politics and 'de sure he is a grand lad' badge

Not saying that all meet the above criteria - but many do....

Ok so an elected politician at the end of the day is supposed to be doing a job of assisting in the running of the country including passing legislation, determining financial and regularity frameworks ( & not administrating- that's for the lovely civil service btw) and representing the country in a professional and ethical manner

There are currently no requirement for any educational or proper ethical standards - third level or otherwise. There are no requirements for proper relevant experience. No references are required. There is no 'interview' for want of a better term to determine a prospective politicians suitability for the job at hand.

It is bizarre that the current collection of cute party political animals are attempting to get rid of the only body of properly educated and qualified individuals (the Seanad)

Any current candidate for election as a TD can be be potentially be thick as pig ****e, have no relevant education or experience and as long they meet some of the above criteria have an excellent chance of earning up to €90,000 plus between €20,000-€50,000 in expenses on average

There is nothing 'elitist' about specifying minimum requirements for any political elected representatives

Degree qualification are not 'elitist' - they simply show that a minimum level of education has been attained and is the normal stating point for most professional professions. I know people from all walks of life who have gone on to achieve a third level degree and achieve a better level of education for themselves

The minimum requirements for most jobs specify specific criteria that must be met

Imo - the very least any potential politician should have before being even considered for election would be

• Relevant third level qualification
• Relevant experience or career
• No criminal record
• Psychological profile and entry test
• declaration of all business and associated interests

The following would disqualify:

Cronyism or political dynasty canvassing
Proven corruption
Criminal record
Conflict of interests including ongoing business or professional operations

But then this has always been a nation of parish pump politics that believes that clientism is the only way of getting things done

And guess what? until we the electorate insist otherwise their ain't going to be any change ...

Go on ya boya!

donegal_road

Jimoslimos wrote: »

So does Seán FitzPatrick

Peter Mathews is principled, Sean Fitz has proved that he is not.

Corkbah

gozunda wrote: »

Imo - the very least any potential politician should have before being even considered for election would be

• Relevant third level qualification
• Relevant experience or career
• No criminal record
• Psychological profile and entry test
• declaration of all business and associated interests

The following would disqualify:

Cronyism or political dynasty canvassing
Proven corruption
Criminal record
Conflict of interests including ongoing business or professional operations

But then this has always been a nation of parish pump politics that believes that clientism is the only way of getting things done

And guess what? until we the electorate insist otherwise their ain't going to be any change ...

Go on ya boya!

when you say ...criminal record disqualifies you ....are you saying someone who gets drunk and is arrested in their teens for ...lets say, peeing in the street - drunk and disorderly - should they automatically be disqualified ...even 30+years after the event/conviction ?

donegal_road

Nodin wrote: »

....so what? Did he open his yap before the collapse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNFbl525fkM

donegal_road

Weevil wrote: »

What age are you?

you are getting personal, we are just having a discussion here, not a fight

Corkbah

donegal_road wrote: »

Peter Mathews is principled, Sean Fitz has proved that he is not.

has Mr Matthews proved this to you ? has Mr Fitzpatrick proved this to you?

one could also argue that because of their experience with the collapse of the economy they would be better placed to identify a trend or spot signs which those inexperienced in collapsing of economies has.

so ... Mr Fitz may well be a decent candidate (I'm playing devils advocate here ...not trolling)

to be fair Fitzpatrick is just about as qualified as any one of us .... actually probably better qualified to be in government.

Corkbah

donegal_road wrote: »

you are getting personal, we are just having a discussion here, not a fight

yes ...because knowing your age is important in a "fight" and not in a "discussion"

Roger_007

donegal_road wrote: »

Peter Mathews is principled, Sean Fitz has proved that he is not.

Peter Matthews is not all that principled. He voted with the Government on all the financial provisions even though he disagreed with some of them. On the abortion issue he pretended that by omitting the 'suicide' clause from the legislation, that the suicide provision contained in the Supreme Court judgement would somehow go away. This was dishonest of him. Peter's problem is that he did not get a portfolio in the government. He probably now feels that he will have a better chance as an independent.

Annasopra

kjl wrote: »

Well dropping out of school at 16 doesn't show a lot of competence to me.

Lots of school drop outs are perfectly competent

donegal_road

Corkbah wrote: »

yes ...because knowing your age is important in a "fight" and not in a "discussion"

?

kowloon

Would our current health minister be considered the most qualified person in the government for his brief? How's that going?

Frank Lee Midere

It's funny that the OP and similar ideologues tend to both want people to have "relevant" degrees - whatever that means - to be in the Dail but tend to be the kind of populist who oppose the Senad. The thing is, however, the Senate is designed to add that expertise. Then there is the 30k limit. That will attract the best and brightest for sure.

I think that we could solve some problems by allowing the cabinet to be selected from anywhere, like in the US. However that would cost real money.

brandon_flowers

But a degree doesn't need to be a mandatory requirement. For example in France if you want to be a top politician you must have a very high standard of education otherwise people won't vote for you at all. It's not mandatory but if you want to receive votes then you better have it.

It is an awful lot different to have the electorate set the standard criteria rather than a legal job description. I am not saying the French have a perfect system, in fact it is very elitist but the electorate dictates who gets elected and who doesn't and they set the criteria.

Foxhound38

wretcheddomain wrote: »

...that can't understand this:

If I want to be an airline pilot, I need to train hard and complete the appropriate exams to ground theory and air law.

If I want to be a medical doctor, I need my primary degree in Medicine and relevant experience.

If I want to be a HGV driver, I need to have the relevant license to drive one.

But...

If I want to run a country, I'm already fully qualified but just need to be nice to a few thousand people for them to trust me to do so.

In other words, this is the only job in the world which requires no qualifications (in terms of responsibility) and it's the most important job in terms of responsibility.

My suggestions?

Anyone who wants to be a TD should have an honours degree in a relevant discipline, as well as pass a series of gruelling exams in economics and other relevant disciplines.

Abolish any party whip system and abolish the concept of party politics.

Impose a fixed wage of €30,000 maximum.

Give more power to the Senate to act as a check amongst other important new roles and functions.

Running a country should not be up to the people voting in whoever they like - the candidates should be well educated and show they can somewhat manage.

Popular vote for any random candidate fails and we realise this every second we see dregs such as Mick Wallace parading around the Dáil.

The floor is now open to AH.

I see the OP is a fan of democracy then...

He probably doesn't realize that the people who got the country into such a mess were generally fairly highly educated. So unless there is a "Slieveen Gobsh*te Exam" that could be devised, I think the OP's suggestion is a non-runner

eyescreamcone

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

George Bush went to university.

Harvard MBA in fact.

Foxhound38

Also, while I'm no fan of the people in the Dail - what sort of crazy idiot would do that job for 30K a year?

Their pensions are over the top, their salaries are over the top, but paying them the absolute minimum is rank populism and wouldn't attract good people to the job either - I suggest the OP actually looks into the hours they work. There's a very good reason it's not a good idea to pay people who are in positions where they could be bribed crappy wages.

There has to be a sensible middle ground here.

shane9689

sounds like you want something like the old roman republic....oh how un-corrupt that was *SARCASM*

gozunda

Corkbah wrote: »

when you say ...criminal record disqualifies you ....are you saying someone who gets drunk and is arrested in their teens for ...lets say, peeing in the street - drunk and disorderly - should they automatically be disqualified ...even 30+years after the event/conviction ?

Ahhh ... the old Normality Test argument - I just love this!

That type of argument went out with the Ark - For your information
An individual will only hold a record a criminal record if have been convicted ie Arrested/ Summonsed/Court Appearance/ Guilty verdict and then sentenced to jail / probation / public service or other sentence ...they then would have a criminal record. However such a record is wiped clean at the age of 18. After that they are supposed to know better....

And It would not be up to you or I to gauge an individuals criminal behaviour - I believe that this would be a matter for Garda Vetting

So NO your "Normality Test" fails.....

And there is no reason why any potential politician should be handed well paid public jobs with mahoosive pensions and also be treated as if they are somehow above the law.....

shane9689

but the way things are, we as a nation still decide who gets office, if you do that, you remove the voice of some of these people, which isnt true freedom, thus we would live in a oppressed society. we arent perfect now but the latter, frankl,y can go **** itself....you and your "education" haha wonder how long youve bee in the real world for....

Chips Lovell

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Anyone who wants to be a TD should have an honours degree in a relevant discipline, as well as pass a series of gruelling exams in economics and other relevant disciplines.

I'm sure you'll have people queuing up to do this for €30K a year.

gozunda

brandon_flowers wrote: »

But a degree doesn't need to be a mandatory requirement. For example in France if you want to be a top politician you must have a very high standard of education otherwise people won't vote for you at all. It's not mandatory but if you want to receive votes then you better have it.

It is an awful lot different to have the electorate set the standard criteria rather than a legal job description. I am not saying the French have a perfect system, in fact it is very elitist but the electorate dictates who gets elected and who doesn't and they set the criteria.

Undertaking the difficult task to improve or obtain a good education will never be "Elitist"

Third level education in the form of a degree is a set standard of education much the way the leaving certificate is.

I know many people from all walks of life and socio-economic backgrounds who have worked hard to achieve a degree in order to improve their standard of education.

To allow an individual who is going to have the hand on the steering wheel of government not to have at least a minimum of a third level education is in this day and age pure lunacy. Most professional jobs require applicants to have such qualifications so I do not understand why we cannot expect the same of the class of morons who normally present themselves for this job to meet such basic job requirements.

Now if they want a job mowing the grass on Leinster lawn then maybe they might have a case but nearly all horticulturalists I know have at least a three year diploma if not a full degree. I suppose they at least know sh*t all ....

gozunda

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'm sure you'll have people queuing up to do this for €30K a year.

For a TD its €90,000 plus expenses plus your automatic pension etc etc


Nice job with no qualifications....

Mardy Bum

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

The type of people attracted to power are often egotistical, narcissistic and venal.

This is really what it comes down to and the manner in which political dynasties exist in Ireland means this power becomes inherited and expected therefore making it even more insidious and selfish.

Nodin

donegal_road wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNFbl525fkM

....that's a video from 2010. Do we have public statements before the collapse?

kjl

yes

Frank Lee Midere

gozunda wrote: »

For a TD its €90,000 plus expenses plus your automatic pension etc etc


Nice job with no qualifications....

There are billionaires with no qualifications. Jesus wept with the qualifications.