The scene

nowimtalking

Does anyone else have great difficulty in associating themselves with western gay culture? I've been out to gay clubs/nights and bars in Ireland, the UK and the Netherlands and find it to be exceedingly seedy and stereotypical. I personally don't like being associated with some of the antics I've seen in places like The George/The Dragon, does anyone else feel the same? Is there a more civilised side to 'the scene' that I haven't come across yet?

pharmaton

If there is I haven't found it, avoid it like the plague myself. I have met some regular folk through straight sporting societies and stuff and I don't know if it's age groups or what but I can't handle the mentality out there on "the scene." Load of cock if you ask me.

Dr. Shrike

The scene has become such a problematic word. It seems to suggest a kind of homogeneity, as if once you enter the scene you lose your sense of individuality.

In a way the problem is statistical, more people equals more variety, and more visible variety too. Imagine if Coppers was all you knew of straight orientated venues :eek:

At the same time, I strongly disagree with the label non-scene. I almost never go out on the scene, but I feel no need to give myself that a label. My gut instinct is almost that it's a statement of social hygiene, rather than behaviour. As if contact with the scene would taint you in some way.

Anyway, I think the bottom line is, if you don't want contact with the scene, or can't find a part of it that fits your character; then you should probably make special effort to be open about your sexuality with people, to aid in your social networking. That's all the scene is really. A social networking arena.

Annasopra

Dr. Shrike wrote: »

Anyway, I think the bottom line is, if you don't want contact with the scene, or can't find a part of it that fits your character; then you should probably make special effort to be open about your sexuality with people, to aid in your social networking. That's all the scene is really. A social networking arena.

Or the alternative is community - there are lots of them covering sports, music, activism, film, books and probably others

nowimtalking

I'm agreeable to all the points made above but it does seem to be the case that 'the scene' is the main way to meet other gay people. I think the main problem is that for young people, like myself, that the scene is endorsed more than other methods of meeting gay people, like it just seems to be the done and accepted thing for gay twenty-something year olds.

Of course there are activist groups around the country but it is tiring socializing in groups where the entire focus is on the LGBT agenda.

I found some groups today on boards.ie and MeetUp that I'll give a go, hopefully I'll find the kind of interaction that I'm looking for.

Annasopra

nowimtalking wrote: »

I'm agreeable to all the points made above but it does seem to be the case that 'the scene' is the main way to meet other gay people. I think the main problem is that for young people, like myself, that the scene is endorsed more than other methods of meeting gay people, like it just seems to be the done and accepted thing for gay twenty-something year olds.

Of course there are activist groups around the country but it is tiring socializing in groups where the entire focus is on the LGBT agenda.

I found some groups today on boards.ie and MeetUp that I'll give a go, hopefully I'll find the kind of interaction that I'm looking for.

I wasnt just talking about activist groups. There are lots of other groups out there too. There is a meeting from here on Friday night as well by the way.

nowimtalking

mango salsa wrote: »

I wasnt just talking about activist groups. There are lots of other groups out there too. There is a meeting from here on Friday night as well by the way.

Your post hadn't come through when I started replying, sorry. I've looked into some alternative groups, as I said, hopefully I'll find one that I enjoy.

Thanks for the info.

Dr. Shrike

It sounds like you've got a pretty good attitude to it, so I hope things work out for you.

I've said in the past that's it's a bit ridiculous if someone needs to go kayaking in order to meet a boyfriend, but if the scene and online isn't working for you, that sort of thing might be the only way to get a suitable social circle.

It's just a shame there wasn't more non-sport based social groups.

jaffacakesyum

I was like that at first with the scene but then I got more into it. I get sick of it if I go too often and it is full of the same stereotypical characters. I would love if there was a 'normal' pub where you could go but still be guaranteed to meet other likeminded folk. I don't mean necessarily for hook ups but just would be nice to be able to socialise in the pub and meet people you're attracted to like everyone else does. One of the main reasons I go out on the scene is to meet people, be that friends or one night stands or something that develops more. At the same time, I do have a good time in fairness because I like going out for drinks with friends anyway and having a good aul dance.

Bottom line, don't knock it til you try it (a few times ) If you're still not comfortable with it than I'm afraid it limits your options of meeting likeminded folk. There are plenty of meet up groups but I know for me, while I've met some really nice people, pretty much all of them have been much older and butcher than me (nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to meet women more like me).

Btw check out Front Lounge, I find it to be less scene-y than the rest, you might like it.

stephen_n

Dr. Shrike wrote: »

It sounds like you've got a pretty good attitude to it, so I hope things work out for you.

I've said in the past that's it's a bit ridiculous if someone needs to go kayaking in order to meet a boyfriend, but if the scene and online isn't working for you, that sort of thing might be the only way to get a suitable social circle.

It's just a shame there wasn't more non-sport based social groups.

There are arts, literature and I might be wrong but even Sci Fi groups, as well as the sporting ones. If none of those appeal to you then start your own. 10 Years ago the thought of a gay rugby club seemed a million miles away. But three like minded individuals made it happen, despite massive adversity.

jaffacakesyum

Dr. Shrike wrote: »

It sounds like you've got a pretty good attitude to it, so I hope things work out for you.

I've said in the past that's it's a bit ridiculous if someone needs to go kayaking in order to meet a boyfriend, but if the scene and online isn't working for you, that sort of thing might be the only way to get a suitable social circle.

It's just a shame there wasn't more non-sport based social groups.

It is that bit harder when you're gay I'm afraid. I know there are probably plenty of LGBT who have met their partners through friends or work or whatever, but for the majority I'd imagine they'd have to make that extra bit of effort - join LGBT clubs, go out on the scene, online dating etc.

Of all my straight friends who are in relationships right now they've met through friends, school/college, work or nights out/parties.

Of all my gay friends who are in relationships (admittedly smaller sample size here!) they've met through online dating or LGBT soc in college.

Annasopra

Dr. Shrike wrote: »

It's just a shame there wasn't more non-sport based social groups.

There are you just have to go looking

Dr. Shrike

Off the top of my head, all I can come up with is Acting Out. What are the others?

Annasopra

Dr. Shrike wrote: »

Off the top of my head, all I can come up with is Acting Out. What are the others?

Off the top of my head in Dublin there is
a film club
a dining group
a book club
a music group
a choir

baby and crumble

The thing it boils down to is

The Scene
Vs
The Community.

There is a distinction. When I was in my late teens and early 20's there was pretty much just the scene, particularly for lesbians. For me, the scene revolves around pubs and night clubs. It's not where I feel comfortable, and I never met anyone in it.

However now I feel quite in touch with the community and it's much more my style. Film and theatre festivals, social groups like running amach, all that kind of stuff is really great and there's way more variety than you'd think.

Having to join groups and stuff to meet people romantically isn't just a gay thing. Once you pass about 25 in the straight world it's kinda that or Internet dating. My friends never found anyone for long term in a bar or club. Of the couples I know that are long term (and straight), one met in martial arts in college, one met through church, one met in they local town trough friends... I met my gf through volunteering in college (not LGBT volunteering).

So it's not that weird. You can't expect mr or ms right to just fall Ito your lap.

Goodshape

If we're taking 'the scene' to mean the pubs and the clubs, I've mixed feelings on it all myself.

Mostly I'm just not a big fan of noisy pubs and clubs in any situation, regardless of what sub-group they're catering for, but then there's some expectation that I am into it all because that's what being gay is all about, right? (obviously not, as others have already pointed out above).

I also can't shake the notion that it's all a bit of a ghetto – not in the grotty sense necessarily but in the sense it's somewhere to put all the gays to go and do their gay thing, while the rest of society gets to hang onto their prejudice and the sense that "gay doesn't happen here, not in this pub. This is a normal pub!". The existence of specifically "gay" clubs and venues perpetuates the idea that you can't hit on that guy in the bar when you're in a "normal" venue, and more dangerously legitimises the "not in here!" response you might get from bigots if you try (legitimises in their mind, that is).

Then you throw modern capitalism and marketing into the mix and you get people/groups/corporations with a vested interested in keeping the pink dollars coming in at these *wild* *gay* *P.A.R.T.Y.*'s ....but **** you, that's my culture and sense of self you're manipulating to make your buck! Grrr.


And then on the other hand, when I'm not over thinking everything and just out for a (rare enough) good night in a club... a 'gay club' is usually a pretty good fun place to be. And anyway, you get sports bars, you get biker bars, and you get gay bars. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself really.

Also, they're not really all that seedy in my experience. Depending on your threshold maybe, but surely no more than many "regular" places. I remember lamenting to a straight friend about the 'need' to put up with crappy music and over the top atmosphere of these places in order to have even a chance of meeting a partner of any kind. His response was pretty much "yeah, me too!". Turns out there's a pretty wide gulf between the places he'd want to go on a night out, and the places he goes because he's single and lonely sometimes. And he just thought we had the funnest parties. Grass is always greener!

So yeah... "the scene" (of pop-and-dance blasting pubs and clubs) can exist just like Coppers and wherever else can. It's nice to have an option of a night like that. But I do wish it wasn't so centric – or perceived to be so centric – to what it means to be "gay" in the world.

pharmaton

Before I came out to anyone I met people through straight friends in a straight bar and it's been that way ever since. (I was very shy and reserved and they had to drag it out of me) Maybe it's because my introduction to other "likeminded" people happened in such a natural environment that I expect it to always be that way but I genuinely have never met other likeminded folk in a gay bar. We are so different I often wondered what I was doing wrong. (but I only checked out gay bars well after the fact so was already comfortable socialising in my regular surroundings. I genuinely didn't feel gay enough to be in a gay bar!)
I've met people I've partied with and had good nights out with but rarely anything else. I realise that sounds strange but in regular pubs or communities people are not signposted so if you happen to get on with others it's for no other reason than because you enjoy each others company, gay or straight and sometimes they really want to let you know they ARE interested. I remember being shocked at the amount of people that I only knew in passing who were so it's good to keep an open mind when it comes to meeting people in more casual settings. (I say regular only to describe what's not specifically LGBT)

Also if I were to limit my socialising to one tiny subgroup I think I would be a very unsatisfied bunny.

Dr. Shrike

Yeah, people shouldn't have to associate with others they don't really get on with, in order to meet people.

At the same time, if there were more guys like you on the scene, then more guys like you would be attracted to the scene. Catch 22.

Also, if more guys like you were out, or unafraid to be outed, in typically straight bars and clubs, that would make a huge difference. I almost think it's the duty of non-stereotypical gay/bi/lesbian people to be more open about their sexuality. It would erode homophobia and increase their likelihood of meeting people on their home turf.

mackD

Just have to say that the times I've been to both the Dragon and George, I've never witnessed any "seedy" antics or anything. Quite the contrary, I've rarely seen guys even kissing there.
I think non-scene people have this very stereotypical view of what goes on.
Anyway, I quite enjoy heading out on the scene but I don't go out on it exclusively either.

Guyanachronism

nowimtalking wrote: »

I'm agreeable to all the points made above but it does seem to be the case that 'the scene' is the main way to meet other gay people. I think the main problem is that for young people, like myself, that the scene is endorsed more than other methods of meeting gay people, like it just seems to be the done and accepted thing for gay twenty-something year olds.

Of course there are activist groups around the country but it is tiring socializing in groups where the entire focus is on the LGBT agenda.

I can totally relate to the highlighted part. When I started at college I made the effort to attend the LGBT group, but it was so pushed towards just going to pubs and hook ups. I hate how it was all endorsed by the councillors and students union. As if congrats you're gay in college, you've arrived all your problems are over because you can now access the gay scene.

I got invovled with other clubs/socities and met people through that and that's where I also got my confidence and learned to accept myself through them. I don't mind the scene so much now, sometimes go with friends if they're on the pull. I lived in Berlin for awhile and there was more diversity in the scene there, I used to go to rock/metal themed gay parties and eventually ended up hanging out with a gay gothic group who used to meet up once a month.

It's lot easier to meet gay friends with common interests if you're into subcultures.

I would really love to see some effort to set up a gay gamers (gaymers) group, it could also include other stuff in Ireland so I will just plug this thread: Video Games. Post if your interested in gaming or nerd stuff.

baby and crumble

Guyanachronism wrote: »

I would really love to see some effort to set up a gay gamers (gaymers) group, it could also include other stuff in Ireland so I will just plug this thread: Video Games. Post if your interested in gaming or nerd stuff.

Please do!!!!

bodice ripper

I avoid gay bars like the plague, because every one I have ever been in has been a tacky nightmare, with the worst music and a statistically unlikely number of unhinged attention seekers.

Dr. Shrike

Thinking about people's disappointment/dissatisfaction with the scene, reminded me of the "Gaybros".

Their existence raised some suspicion amongst certain sections of the gay community, because it was assumed they were just another part of the femmephobia that's growing amongst gay men. The word bro doesn't help, since it suggests douchebaggery (see also: brostep).

As it turns out, they're actually not that much different to the lads organising the meets on here. Even their tagline "gear, grub, guys and guns" is about as heterosexual as wearing a lumberjack shirt with a handlebar moustache, if you ask me.

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaybros/

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/03/gaybros_the_reddit_group_of_macho_gay_boys_and_their_trouble_with_fellow.html

http://www.out.com/entertainment/2013/08/07/meet-gaybros?page=0,0

Guyanachronism

Dr. Shrike wrote: »

Thinking about people's disappointment/dissatisfaction with the scene, reminded me of the "Gaybros".

Their existence raised some suspicion amongst certain sections of the gay community, because it was assumed they were just another part of the femmephobia that's growing amongst gay men. The word bro doesn't help, since it suggests douchebaggery (see also: brostep).

As it turns out, they're actually not that much different to the lads organising the meets on here. Even their tagline "gear, grub, guys and guns" is about as heterosexual as wearing a lumberjack shirt with a handlebar moustache, if you ask me.

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaybros/

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/03/gaybros_the_reddit_group_of_macho_gay_boys_and_their_trouble_with_fellow.html

http://www.out.com/entertainment/2013/08/07/meet-gaybros?page=0,0

Is it a phenomenon in Ireland? I know there are always those really superficial lads who keep describing themselves as straight acting and then there are people who will generally try to organise gay friendly events around things that aren't stereotypical gay.

I can't look at the links while at work, but from the sounds of it, these guys are just insecure and attempting to be the opposite of everything they think is remotely stereotypically gay.

It's not the worst thing I know of gay people doing to avoid the slightest possibility of other people thinking of them as a gay stereotype, they're are gay neo-nazi skinhead groups and not just ones who are into it for the kink.

Dr. Shrike

I would read the links before passing judgement. Interestingly, some of them appear to have come out at a very early age, though I'm not entirely decided on the significance of that.

jaffacakesyum

bodice ripper wrote: »

I avoid gay bars like the plague, because every one I have ever been in has been a tacky nightmare, with the worst music and a statistically unlikely number of unhinged attention seekers.

Most popular 'straight' clubs are like this as well though.

face1990

I used to think I hated the 'scene' but I think it was more that I don't enjoy clubs in general. I think it's very easy to just blame the gay scene as a whole.

As for sports & non-sport gay groups, I think you can enjoy almost any of them if you get on well with the other people at them.

stephen_n wrote: »

If none of those appeal to you then start your own.

Wholeheartedly agree with that. It just takes one person to start the ball rolling. I go to a lot of the meetups organised here and, while it was terrifying going to first one not knowing anyone, it was one of the best things I've done and it changed my opinion of the gay scene/community and my place in it.

My one warning would be to not organise it with the express intent of meeting a boyfriend or it'll be as seedy and tacky as any nightclub!

bodice ripper

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Most popular 'straight' clubs are like this as well though.

Clubs maybe, pubs not so much. I am sorry, I am glad others enjoy them, but there is nothing in gay bars for me.

jaffacakesyum

bodice ripper wrote: »

Clubs maybe, pubs not so much. I am sorry, I am glad others enjoy them, but there is nothing in gay bars for me.

Clubs definitely. But yeah it's annoying there's no gay pubs on par with "normal" pubs in Dublin. Closest would be the Front Lounge and I don't think it's that bad.

My point is that you can't compare The George and The Dragon to an old man pub or Bruxelles or whatever pubs you go to. You'd be better off comparing The George and The Dragon to Coppers.

Arguably the 'straight' scene is much more seedy than the gay one simply because there are more 'straight' clubs.

I'd love if there were gay pubs which were just normal pubs but frequented by gay folk. Not sure what other cities are like for that but when I was in New York there were even lesbian bars that were just normal bars but frequented by mostly lesbians let alone LGBT in general. It's a shame but there just isn't a big enough demand for a pub that you and I may enjoy moreso than the usual scene.

Dr. Shrike

Supposedly one of the problems with setting up a niche gay bar is the Irish licensing laws make it difficult for new small bars to open. Someone with better knowledge of Irish vintner licences can correct me if I'm wrong.

Imagine somewhere as small as The Dawson Lounge or The Bar With No Name that could have all sorts of more unusual stuff that wouldn't fly in the larger bars.

Barna77

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Clubs definitely. But yeah it's annoying there's no gay pubs on par with "normal" pubs in Dublin. Closest would be the Front Lounge and I don't think it's that bad.

Not that sure about the FL. Been there a few times and feels a bit snobbish. Couple of friends were there once and they felt so looked down they left and bowed never to go back.

Panti all the way!